Are you feeling more or less optimistic about the leafs future since Dubas took over?

[rent free]

What I'm saying is that "cap problems" are when you're against the cap with contracts that you can't move. Someone like NYI is in more "cap trouble" than we are because nobody wants mediocre players like Lee at 7x7 through his 30s.

Why move a guy like Hyman when you can just replace guys like Clifford and Kerfoot with Marlies and give Hyman part of the savings? Our development/Euro FA system is good at producing viable bottom-6ers on cheap contracts. We could realistically fit in another big (8-9 mil) contract for someone like Pietrangelo by moving Johnsson+Kerfoot without hurting our depth much, if at all.

Just being at the cap ceiling is not the same thing as having cap problems. If Dubas' vision isn't a winning one, the next guy will not have a hard time getting back assets for our core and retooling it on the fly. It's not the heap of trash Burke/Nonis left us with that only brought back Kapanen, a late 1st, and a couple 2nds.

we'd have to move more than just kerfoot+johnsson to fit pietrangelo

 

[Stephen]

They need their Rodman.

Oh I agree. We need our Rodman, our Shanahan, our Roy, our Carter-Richards, basically the guy that finishing piece to go along with internal growth.

 

[Mess]

Oh I agree. We need our Rodman, our Shanahan, our Roy, our Carter-Richards, basically the guy that finishing piece to go along with internal growth.

Problem being in a cap world that big impact glue player, will likely need to come at the expense and luxuary of 1 of those 4 pricey forwards that eat up 1/2 the Leafs salary Cap.

Many Leaf fans have suggested for years that Nylander needs to be turned into a top Dman to help stabilize the Leafs.

PS. That is what Lou Lam was attempting in the past by bringing in a veteran like Patty Marleau to be a finishing piece to go along with internal growth from the 3 Amigos. Marleau was supposed to be Leafs version of Dennis Rodman while Leafs compete window was open and the kids were on cheap ELC deals.

 

[ACC1224]

Problem being in a cap world that big impact glue player, will likely need to come at the expense and luxuary of 1 of those 4 pricey forwards that eat up 1/2 the Leafs salary Cap.

Many Leaf fans have suggested for years that Nylander needs to be turned into a top Dman to help stabilize the Leafs.

PS. That is what Lou Lam was attempting in the past by bringing in a veteran like Patty Marleau to be a finishing piece to go along with internal growth from the 3 Amigos. Marleau was supposed to be Leafs version of Dennis Rodman while Leafs compete window was open and the kids were on cheap ELC deals.

I don't think Marleau was brought in with that in mind. Even the Team would have realized they weren't ready for a cup run, nor would they be within 3 years. It appears they were right about that. Where the Team was wrong is in how quickly the young players would develop and together with Tavares would eat up the cap. Marleau was to be long gone before it got to that.
My understanding he was brought to mentor and teach them how to be pros. With how they appear to be turning out one could believe his mentor ship was a success but obviously no real way to prove that.

 

[The Podium]

Problem being in a cap world that big impact glue player, will likely need to come at the expense and luxuary of 1 of those 4 pricey forwards that eat up 1/2 the Leafs salary Cap.

Many Leaf fans have suggested for years that Nylander needs to be turned into a top Dman to help stabilize the Leafs.

PS. That is what Lou Lam was attempting in the past by bringing in a veteran like Patty Marleau to be a finishing piece to go along with internal growth from the 3 Amigos. Marleau was supposed to be Leafs version of Dennis Rodman while Leafs compete window was open and the kids were on cheap ELC deals.

Marleau and Dennis Rodman do not belong in the same sentence

Marleau was a character vet and was expected to be decent depth, Rodman was an absolute headcase that no one in the league wanted to touch but also happened to be the best defensive player in the game.

Muzzin is closer to Rodman than anyone on this roster and even that is a stretch.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I don't think Marleau was brought in with that in mind. Even the Team would have realized they weren't ready for a cup run, nor would they be within 3 years. It appears they were right about that. Where the Team was wrong is in how quickly the young players would develop and together with Tavares would eat up the cap. Marleau was to be long gone before it got to that.
My understanding he was brought to mentor and teach them how to be pros. With how they appear to be turning out one could believe his mentor ship was a success but obviously no real way to prove that.

Dubie had very little if nothing to do with Marleau except trading him and losing da 1st in 2020 ... I think the key for Dubie now is finding cheap guys every year to fill in a roster ... and if it does not work with a Cup or very close in next 2 years then likely trading one of 4 guys ... most likely Mitch in a flat CAP league for next 2-3 years

 

[ACC1224]

Dubie had very little if nothing to do with Marleau except trading him and losing da 1st in 2020 ... I think the key for Dubie now is finding cheap guys every year to fill in a roster ... and if it does not work with a Cup or very close in next 2 years then likely trading one of 4 guys ... most likely Mitch in a flat CAP league for next 2-3 years

Yes, that was all Babcock supported by Lou is my understanding.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Yes, that was all Babcock supported by Lou is my understanding.

I have heard same thing for multiple parents ... Babs absolutely loved Marleau ... and even though I had my doubts I must admit his 1st year here and playoffs I thought he was at worst a 2nd liner and at times played like a 1st liner in playoffs ... and then father time kicked in year 2 when he showed up to camp ... sometimes with a really old cagey guy they can work themselves back and my guess is Babs thought he could but as season went on in became apparent to everyone it was over ... but Babs still kept putting him over da boards ... no one will ever know but likely he had some kinda deal with Marleau if he signed here and also Babs had to hope his reputational capital was not eroded with shanny

 

[rent free]

Problem being in a cap world that big impact glue player, will likely need to come at the expense and luxuary of 1 of those 4 pricey forwards that eat up 1/2 the Leafs salary Cap.

Many Leaf fans have suggested for years that Nylander needs to be turned into a top Dman to help stabilize the Leafs.

PS. That is what Lou Lam was attempting in the past by bringing in a veteran like Patty Marleau to be a finishing piece to go along with internal growth from the 3 Amigos. Marleau was supposed to be Leafs version of Dennis Rodman while Leafs compete window was open and the kids were on cheap ELC deals.

And he failed rather miserably (lou)

 

[Mess]

I don't think Marleau was brought in with that in mind. Even the Team would have realized they weren't ready for a cup run, nor would they be within 3 years. It appears they were right about that. Where the Team was wrong is in how quickly the young players would develop and together with Tavares would eat up the cap. Marleau was to be long gone before it got to that.
My understanding he was brought to mentor and teach them how to be pros. With how they appear to be turning out one could believe his mentor ship was a success but obviously no real way to prove that.

I think its a little of both as Lou Lam gave several interviews at the time the acquired Marleau as to the reasons.

Our Leafs ended up last and drafted 1st overall in Lou Lams first season to get Matthews. The very next year the Leafs went from last overall to a playoff spot against Washington.. Lou in several reports suggested he owed to the young players to bring in a vet like him and take advantage of their ELCs.

Here is an example..

Lamoriello: Patrick Marleau’s pricey contract worth the risk

Lou Lamoriello knows there’s some risk in the Toronto Maple Leafs‘ acquisition of Patrick Marleau, who signed a three-year, $18.75-million contract with the team. But the Leafs GM is confident the decision to bring the veteran forward aboard was a sound one.

“It was a unanimous consensus on the player,” Lamoriello said Tuesday when he joined Bob McCown on Prime Time Sports. “He had a lot of teams that were interested in him for a lot of different reasons. First of all, the player he is and the way he plays and what his abilities are. And also the type of individual he is — and that played a role into the decision.” Lamoriello praised Marleau for his ability to help the team on and off the ice — and for “his way of making other people around him better.”

The young stars of the team, he said, will be the Leafs’ core going forward, but those players still have a lot to learn, which is where Marleau fits in. The move to sign Marleau signals that Toronto is finished rebuilding, though it’s a costly decision. But Lamoriello emphasized that timing was everything. “Yes, it’s a pricey contract,” he said. “We feel this is probably the only time in the careers of the young players that we have that we could take this type of a chance.”

Lamoriello: Patrick Marleau's pricey contract worth the risk - Sportsnet.ca

or

Patrick Marleau proof Maple Leafs are playing in the here and now:

Patrick Marleau has spent 19 years in a fruitless search for the Stanley Cup. He wants his name on it badly. Marleau believes the Maple Leafs — and not the San Jose Sharks, who made it to the final just two springs ago — give him his best chance. “It was the team, I think, the excitement that’s around it, the youth, the coaching staff, the coach, the management, the way they see the game going, the players that they have on their roster,” Marleau said

You know Lou Lamoriello’s five-year plan that changes every day? On Saturday and Sunday it placed a confident foot on the throttle. And why wouldn’t the Leafs slam the gas with some gusto? Now, only a few months removed from playing five overtime games with the Washington Capitals in a six-game first-round near-miss, this past weekend’s free-agent haul says the Maple Leafs are tripling down on the value of been-there, done-that leadership.

Babcock spent some of this past season comparing the Leafs of Auston Matthews and Mitch Marner and William Nylander to the Chicago Blackhawks in the early years of Jonathan Toews and Patrick Kane. Babcock brought that comparison up himself, remember. And remember, too, that the Toews-Kane Blackhawks made the Western final in their second year and won the Stanley Cup in their third.

Looming down the road are the expiration of the rookie contracts of Matthews, Marner (two more seasons) and William Nylander (one more season).

“You only have one chance to do something like this and we would not have done it if it was not the right player,” Lamoriello said. “The timing is perfect. We’ve always said that coming off the season we had last year, the difficulty of taking the next step, that giving them a veteran who can be put into any position in the lineup and support these players, help these players, it’s hard to explain how excited we are to have Patrick here.”

Free agent forward Patrick Marleau signs three-year deal with Leafs

 

[Mess]

Marleau and Dennis Rodman do not belong in the same sentence

Marleau was a character vet and was expected to be decent depth, Rodman was an absolute headcase that no one in the league wanted to touch but also happened to be the best defensive player in the game.

Muzzin is closer to Rodman than anyone on this roster and even that is a stretch.

I was referring more as a veteran player addition to put a team over the top, and not a personality comparison.

 

[The Podium]

I was referring more as a veteran player addition to put a team over the top, and not a personality comparison.

Marleau was a vet player that was the addition to help their young stars mature, not put them over the top. He was always thought of as a depth signing.

Rodman was added as a volatile personality that they believed would listen to MJ and Pipen, and extract a ton of value out of the best defensive player of the game that was undervalued due to the character concerns.

So Marleau was the depth character to support the core's development, Rodman was added to the core despite the character.

 

[Stephen]

Problem being in a cap world that big impact glue player, will likely need to come at the expense and luxuary of 1 of those 4 pricey forwards that eat up 1/2 the Leafs salary Cap.

Many Leaf fans have suggested for years that Nylander needs to be turned into a top Dman to help stabilize the Leafs.

PS. That is what Lou Lam was attempting in the past by bringing in a veteran like Patty Marleau to be a finishing piece to go along with internal growth from the 3 Amigos. Marleau was supposed to be Leafs version of Dennis Rodman while Leafs compete window was open and the kids were on cheap ELC deals.

Feels like Tavares was brought in to be that finishing piece. But honestly, from a shift to shift impact he really doesn’t come across as that franchise altering addition even if his stats line is great (or was in the first season) and they give him the captaincy, etc. A lot of what he brings is just really underwhelming after you cut through the narratives and hype and homecoming.

I don’t think Nylander’s the guy to go. His contract is pretty reasonable if his production this season is the norm. In a pre-Covid world I’m not sure that shifting his $7 million for an impact player would get the job done.

 

[ACC1224]

I was referring more as a veteran player addition to put a team over the top, and not a personality comparison.

That would probably be Tavares, not Marleau.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Way more optimistic. All bad contracts jettisoned for non-core players, good signing/wallets, D is a work in progress but at least he IS addressing it.
Like others have said, I really think Babcock sticking around so long hurt this team. His arrogance and ego and total inability to adapt. Very few liked playing for him, in fact I think most hated playing for him. But from all accounts Shanny wanted to give him every opportunity whereas Dubas wanted him gone and move on.
Big tests ahead but I think the kids have one more year to show some playoff success or one of Nylander of Marner is out the door. I'd lean towards Marner though as he is way overpaid.

 

[ShaneFalco]

the leafs were in good hands under lou. then dubas came along and ruined everything.

People say this and then their "supporting arguments" have to do with a journeyman backup goalie, Komarov, Kadri and a 39 year old declining d-man.

 

[Joey Hoser]

People say this and then their "supporting arguments" have to do with a journeyman backup goalie, Komarov, Kadri and a 39 year old declining d-man.

... While ignoring the addition of a franchise center and a cup winning top pairing defenceman.

Youd have to somehow think Muzzin and Tavares are complete hot garbage to actually believe Dubas made the team worse.

 

[Mess]

That would probably be Tavares, not Marleau.

Well at this point it would have to be JT that is intended to put the Leafs young core over the top, since the Marleau Era has ended.

Unfortunately for Leaf Nation though the advantage of a deep team and surrounding cast while the 3 Amigo's were on cheap ELC and contributing at high levels and Cup competitive window has ended.

Now we're moving on to trying and winning with the highest paid players in the game with largest AAV cap hits, which as far as competitiveness goes is counterproductive to surrounding your key core players when they take up 1/2 the teams salary cap.

Maybe what we see in the future might be star veteran players taking small cheaper contracts in hopes of winning a Cup in the belief that hitching your wagon to the Leafs talented offensive players is more about winning and success then lining your pockets financially.

 

[ACC1224]

Well at this point it would have to be JT that is intended to put the Leafs young core over the top, since the Marleau Era has ended.

Unfortunately for Leaf Nation though the advantage of a deep team and surrounding cast while the 3 Amigo's were on cheap ELC and contributing at high levels and Cup competitive window has ended.

Now we're moving on to trying and winning with the highest paid players in the game with largest AAV cap hits, which as far as competitiveness goes is counterproductive to surrounding your key core players when they take up 1/2 the teams salary cap.

Maybe what we see in the future might be star veteran players taking small cheaper contracts in hopes of winning a Cup in the belief that hitching your wagon to the Leafs talented offensive players is more about winning and success then lining your pockets financially.

It all comes down to Dubas skipping their RFA earnings and going straight to UFA salaries. The cap shouldn't be maxed out yet.

 

[Stephen]

It all comes down to Dubas skipping their RFA earnings and going straight to UFA salaries. The cap shouldn't be maxed out yet.

I think Dubas was definitely way too generous but I also blame Rogers and Bell for their media hype from the moment Matthews scores 4x goals in his debut.

 

[Mess]

Feels like Tavares was brought in to be that finishing piece. But honestly, from a shift to shift impact he really doesn’t come across as that franchise altering addition even if his stats line is great (or was in the first season) and they give him the captaincy, etc. A lot of what he brings is just really underwhelming after you cut through the narratives and hype and homecoming.

I don’t think Nylander’s the guy to go. His contract is pretty reasonable if his production this season is the norm. In a pre-Covid world I’m not sure that shifting his $7 million for an impact player would get the job done.

My take on Tavares is very similar to yours in that shift to shift and game to game he isn't a game breaker despite being an elite player.. As one of the highest paid players in the game you would expect more of a Dougie Gilmour killer instinct were you can see them grabbing a team and carry it on his back and it happening regularly. Zach Hyman (despite the less skill) does more of this on a regular basis for the Leafs truth be told when judging impact on the game. I don't see JT as that player either now that is the missing piece, as he is more a supporting player than high impact one.

If Nylander could have been parlayed into a young Dman of similar age and cost ie Provorov or Werenski it would have helped, but likely not the difference either..

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I think Dubas was definitely way too generous but I also blame Rogers and Bell for their media hype from the moment Matthews scores 4x goals in his debut.

Well Pittsburgh won Cup without Letang 1 year. So it has been done. But unless I am forgetting 1 no other team in history of hockey has won a Cup with a front loaded top3/4 forward base and not much on backend. And TBH only reason Pittsburgh won was because league did not know Murray yet. Murray is now known and beatable. But for a playoffs, a season and 2nd playoffs he played like Superman.

 

[Stephen]

My take on Tavares is very similar to yours in that shift to shift and game to game he isn't a game breaker despite being an elite player.. As one of the highest paid players in the game you would expect more of a Dougie Gilmour killer instinct were you can see them grabbing a team and carry it on his back and it happening regularly. Zach Hyman (despite the less skill) does more of this on a regular basis for the Leafs truth be told when judging impact on the game. I don't see JT as that player either now that is the missing piece, as he is more a supporting player than high impact one.

If Nylander could have been parlayed into a young Dman of similar age and cost ie Provorov or Werenski it would have helped, but likely not the difference either..

In hindsight, I think if Drew Doughty was brought in under the same circumstances as Tavares that would have put us on an exponential curve for success. That’s a guy with a true winning pedigree.

Whenever the main boards did their comparisons between Toews and Tavares over the years, I always thought Tavares was credited with more than he had actually achieved. His experience with the Islanders is more or less the same level of playoff success as the Matthews core. It’s like because of his draft pedigree and being on the Island he always had a built in excuse for why those real results were not there. In comparison to Doughty, that’s a better positional fit and a guy with that classic drive to win. And knowledge of how to win.

I don’t think the answer is necessarily another young guy learning on the job like Provorov or Werenski but that would provide better balance.

 

[Mess]

It all comes down to Dubas skipping their RFA earnings and going straight to UFA salaries. The cap shouldn't be maxed out yet.

I agree 1 million percent.

Dubas is paying Leafs young stars at UFA rates instead of RFA rates because most of their 2nd contracts are only buying 1 or so years of UFA status away.

When TB a team also primed for Cup contention aspirations watches Dubas give Marner his $11 mil deal and then they a few weeks later bridge Brayden Point a 40 goal 92 point player for 3 years and $6.75 mil AAV and ending up a RFA at completion you have to admire a GM that understands the market of ELC (1st) ---> RFA (2nd) ----> UFA (3rd contract) and creating the best Cup competitive opportunity for his team.

Ditto for Stamkos who goes ELC to 2nd ($7.5 mil) bridge (winning Rocket trophies) to UFA @ $8.5 mil now, or Kucherov from ELC to $4.75 mil bridge, where he puts up 128 points and wins Art Ross, Hart and Lyndsay trophies and then signs for $9.5 mil ..

Our Leafs due to Dubas mishandling of the 3 Amigo's missed the entire 2nd team friendly cost controllable advantage Cup competitive window and when from ELC (promising future Cup chance) ---> UFA (overpaid and long-shots).

This is the #1 reason I'm so disheartened as diehard Leaf fan from the 1960's because we accumulated a young talented core players with a promising future and than essentially tossed that all away because our current 5 year window advantage has been flushed down the drain with cap busting overpaid contracts losing out on those 2nd RFA bridge contracts directly connected to cup competitiveness.

 

[4thline]

@Mess, how much do you think Connor McDavid would have been paid on a 4/5 year deal?
What is the UFA premium added to Crosby and Stamkos' 3rd contracts relative to their 2nd?