Are you feeling more or less optimistic about the leafs future since Dubas took over?

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Are you feeling more or less optimistic about the leafs future today compared May 11, 2018?


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Why does Lou Lams disastrous cap make you feel more optimistic? If the Isles has a good cap situation would you feel less optimistic? :huh:

"Hockey is a results oriented business" and for some strange and unknown reason some Leaf fans believe Lou Lam's performance in NYI makes Dubas look good as a GM. :help:

Here are the facts:

Lou Lam inherits an NYI team that finished with 80 points (22nd overall) and last in goals against and out of playoffs, and then loses his best player & #1C John Tavares to Leafs for Dubas direct benefit.

In year #1 under Lou Lam (without JT), the Isles go from 80 points to 103 points (5th overall) a +23 point improvement in the standings. Go from 31st in goals against to #1 overall.

Here goes the best part... In the playoffs the NYI sweep in 4 games the 2 X Stanley Cup champs from 2016 & 2017 Pittsburgh Pens before losing in round #2.

In addition he gifts Dubas his 105 point Leafs team (100 year franchise all-time best points and wins in a season) & John Tavares as his starting point and Dubas is struggling to keep up with Lou Lam ever since as Leafs regular season results decline annually as they lose in round #1.

I'd really love to know how Lou Lam's performance as Isles GM is making Dubas job performance look good in comparison when in fact it actually embarrasses in direct comparison of team results under both GM guidance ?

We all understand that the only real way to compare GMs from team to team when referencing them is to see the tangible and measurable results of the teams they manage by comparing GMs among their own peers, statistically based on overall team performance.

PS. Actual supporting stats to follow in following post.
 
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Since Dubas has been manager, the team has been measurably worse.
This is not true. You believe this because you only look at points in the standings to evaluate how a team is evolving and growing. In reality, the team has been significantly better since Dubas took over. The only thing they have dropped off in, is goaltending exclusively compared to 2017-2018, when we had our starting goalie playing well, and a 25 year old journeyman backup fluking into a literal vezina-quality season.
 
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LEAFS (Inherited from Lou Lam)
2017-18 .... 82 games 49 wins 26 losses 7 OTL = 105 points [.640 pts%] & (5th OA) .. 277 GF 232 GA (10th) & +45 goal diff .. [Lost in Round #1]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2018-19 ... 82 games 46 wins 28 losses 8 OTL = 100 points [.610 pts] & (8th OA) ... 286 GF ... 251 GA (18th) & +35 goal diff .. [Lost in Round #1]
2019-20 ... 70 games 36 wins 25 losses 4 OTL = 81 points [.579 pts] & (12th OA) ... 238 GF .. 227 (27th) & +11 goals diff

- In year #1 despite inheriting from Lou Lam a team that just set an all-time best 105 point mark they dropped in standings with JT and loss in round #1.

NYI (Inherited by Lou Lam)
2017-18 ... 82 games 35 wins 37 losses 10 OTL = 80 points [.488 pts%] (22nd OA) .. 264 GF ... 296 GA (31st) & -32 goal diff [Missed Playoffs]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2018-19 ... 82 games 48 wins 27 losses 7 OTL = 103 points [.628 pts%] (5th OA) ..... 228 GF ... 196 GA (1st OA) & +32 goal diff [Lost in Round #2]
2019-20 ... 68 games 35 wins 23 losses 7 OTL = 80 points [.588 pts%] & (13th OA) ...192 GF .. 193 GA .. -1 goal diff

- In year #1 as NYI GM Lou Lam takes non playoff team to 5th overall and improves the team by +23 points in the standings, goes from 31st overall in goals against to 1st (despite losing JT teams best player) & going from -32 to +32 goal differential .. In playoffs NYI sweep 2 X Stanley Cup Pens (2016 & 2017) 4-0 before losing in round #2.

Lou Lam without Tavares can outperform Dubas with JT.

Ever since Dubas has taken over I feel FAR LESS confident as my beloved Leafs continue to fall in the standings and lose 6-3 to a 42 year old Zamboni driver. Don't even get me started :mad: on his botched 3 Amigos contracts:wedgie: and how the Leafs are now in CAP HELL :madfire: having 3 of the 7 highest AAV players (Matthews #3, Tavares #6 and Marner #7) in the league and a marginal playoff team fighting tooth and nail just to get into the playoffs, while trading their own 1st rounder to buy cap space in the process.
 
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I don’t know if I can pin it solely on Dubas but his contracts put us in a pretty bad situation. Specifically the Marner deal. He is paid about 1.5 more than his best comparable who signed for the same term only days apart. Both Marner and Matthews got contracts way above what other players got. Matthews being 11.6 for 5 years was bad at both a cap figure and from a term standpoint. Marner I believe was just unjustified
I could live with their current AAVs if both were 8 year terms. However, given their current terms, $10.0M for Matthews and $8.0M for Marner would have been more appropriate IMHO. It is what it is now.

Hopefully, they both sign new deals at a real hometown discounts on their next contracts, assuming they're both still Leafs!
 
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I could live with their current AAVs if both were 8 year terms. However, given their current terms, $10.0M for Matthews and $8.0M for Marner would have been more appropriate IMHO. It is what it is now.

Hopefully, they both sign new deals at a real hometown discounts on their next contracts, assuming they're both still Leafs!


That is the big thing. If it were 8 years I would live with it. However for the 5/6 year term signed that’s gross overpayment. By the time the cap goes up and we can fill up depth, they will be up for renewal and no guarantee that Matthews or Marner stay
 
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"Hockey is a results oriented business" and for some strange and unknown reason some Leaf fans believe Lou Lam's performance in NYI makes Dubas look good as a GM. :help:

Here are the facts:

Lou Lam inherits an NYI team that finished with 80 points (22nd overall) and last in goals against and out of playoffs, and then loses his best player & #1C John Tavares to Leafs for Dubas direct benefit.

In year #1 under Lou Lam (without JT), the Isles go from 80 points to 103 points (5th overall) a +23 point improvement in the standings. Go from 31st in goals against to #1 overall.

Here goes the best part... In the playoffs the NYI sweep in 4 games the 2 X Stanley Cup champs from 2016 & 2017 Pittsburgh Pens before losing in round #2.

In addition he gifts Dubas his 105 point Leafs team (100 year franchise all-time best points and wins in a season) & John Tavares as his starting point and Dubas is struggling to keep up with Lou Lam ever since as Leafs regular season results decline annually as they lose in round #1.

I'd really love to know how Lou Lam's performance as Isles GM is making Dubas job performance look good in comparison when in fact it actually embarrasses in direct comparison of team results under both GM guidance ?

PS. Actual supporting stats to follow in following post.

Two words Mess: Barry Trotz. That team was a disaster before he arrived there and got them playing defense. Thats why Barzal dropped in points when he had to play responsibly and not only offense. The Marner comparison to Barzal stopped when it became a equal playing field with Barzal dropping off in points. Marner always had to play responsibly.

Barry Trotz is the best coach in the league i believe
 
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No doubt Marner getting significantly overpaid helped Rantanen get 9.25.
At time of signing:

ES Points/60

Marner: 2.56
Rantanen: 2.13

ES Primary Points/60

Marner: 2.06
Rantanen: 1.58

PP Points/60

Marner: 7.19
Rantanen: 5.78

PP Primary Points/60

Marner: 4.69
Rantanen: 4.15

On top of this, Marner is younger, and had worse overall linemate quality than Rantanen over this sample. If, for example, we applied Marner and Rantanen's scoring rates to Rantanen's ES TOI/GP (15:27) and PP TOI/GP (3:23) over his pre-signing sample, their production over an 82 game season would look something like...

Points:

Marner: 87.3
Rantanen: 71.7

Primary Points:

Marner: 65.2
Rantanen: 52.5

That is 21.8% higher point production, and 24.2% higher primary point production.
Marner's contract is 17.8% bigger than Rantanen's.
Hardly any cause for panic.
 
To the thread question by the Op.

I would like to see a healthy consistency from the entire team at the same time. We really have not seen a full lineup in this season. Freddy went flat too.

Hard team to beat if they get it together with consistency. Its going to come too soon enough if they can stay healthy for long stretches.

The team has been flat this year. Have not progressed but the reasons are understandable and fixable.
 
You've made a huge assumption that personal fulfilment is measured only with numbers. How nihilistic. I can't speak for others but money has never been the number 1 priority in my personal career decisions. So no, I can't identify with the "maximize my money" approach to life. A mercenary approach to your career has its downsides, some that aren't always immediately obvious.
Sorry sister. It’s their right to make as much as they can. You might not be able to see that because you feel everyone should take a discount to play for the leafs, but that’s not how it works. You can try to flip what I said however you want it. The fact is you try to make as much money as you can. That’s life. They exercised their right. Sure I wish they took a bit less, but getting butt hurt they didn’t is childish. And ignorant seeing as how there are likely very few people who wouldn’t do the same in their situations. Any bargain contract a la MacKinnon is typically signed before they blew up.
 
"Hockey is a results oriented business" and for some strange and unknown reason some Leaf fans believe Lou Lam's performance in NYI makes Dubas look good as a GM. :help:

Here are the facts:

Lou Lam inherits an NYI team that finished with 80 points (22nd overall) and last in goals against and out of playoffs, and then loses his best player & #1C John Tavares to Leafs for Dubas direct benefit.

In year #1 under Lou Lam (without JT), the Isles go from 80 points to 103 points (5th overall) a +23 point improvement in the standings. Go from 31st in goals against to #1 overall.

Here goes the best part... In the playoffs the NYI sweep in 4 games the 2 X Stanley Cup champs from 2016 & 2017 Pittsburgh Pens before losing in round #2.

In addition he gifts Dubas his 105 point Leafs team (100 year franchise all-time best points and wins in a season) & John Tavares as his starting point and Dubas is struggling to keep up with Lou Lam ever since as Leafs regular season results decline annually as they lose in round #1.

I'd really love to know how Lou Lam's performance as Isles GM is making Dubas job performance look good in comparison when in fact it actually embarrasses in direct comparison of team results under both GM guidance ?

PS. Actual supporting stats to follow in following post.
It's one year.

Do you make assumptions about a players entire career from a single season? People tend to not because you need a larger sample size to see the real picture. A team and players performance needs to be shown at a consistent level for a time period that is longer than a single season to draw conclusions.

How did the islanders fair when they finally stopped getting .930sv%? Not good. They were on the downward trend ever since mid November when that goaltending finally stopped happening.

Fluke years happen all the time. I would assume you have been watching hockey long enough to realise it.

Cheechoo won a rocket one year and never came close again.
 
Team evaluation
2017-2018 season vs. 2018-2020 seasons:
(Bold good, underlined bad)

ES:

CF%: 50.14% (16th) improves to 51.79% (7th)
FF%: 48.89% (20th) improves to 50.61% (14th)
SF%: 48.54% (22nd) improves to 50.01% (17th)
SCF%: 52.71% (5th) improves to 53.01% (4th)
HDCF%: 51.89% (10th) improves to 52.35% (8th)

xGF%: 50.23% (16th) improves to 51.69% (10th)
GF%: 53.33% (9th) improves to 53.28% (6th)

Save %: 92.22% (6th) decreases to 91.28% (14th)
SH %: 9.43% (3rd) stays the same to 9.95% (3rd)

At ES, everything has improved or stayed the same, except goaltending, which has dropped off moderately.

PK:

CF%: 10.86% (24th) improves to 15.67% (10th)
FF%: 11.34% (27th) improves to 17.47% (10th)
SF%: 13.00% (25th) improves to 19.35% (11th)
SCF%: 9.38% (31st) improves to 15.33% (7th)
HDCF%: 8.44% (31st) improves to 19.35% (7th)

xGF%: 7.41% (31st) improves to 14.14% (10th)
GF%: 8.51% (24th) improves to 10.75% (22nd)

Save %: 88.32% (8th) decreases to 85.46% (25th)
SH %: 7.27% (22nd) decreases to 7.30% (26th)

On the PK, everything has improved or stayed the same, except goaltending, which has dropped off considerably, and SH%, which has dropped slightly in rank only.

PP:

CF%: 87.31% (14th) decreases to 86.19% (17th)
FF%: 85.97% (12th) decreases to 84.47% (15th)
SF%: 84.60% (13th) stays the same to 82.98% (13th)
SCF%: 89.92% (7th) decreases to 88.93% (9th)
HDCF%: 91.98% (1st) decreases to 85.71% (13th)

xGF%: 91.74% (5th) decreases to 87.27% (16th)
GF%: 91.80% (7th) decreases to 85.05% (22nd)

Save %: 92.75% (7th) decreases to 88.15% (25th)
SH %: 14.78% (9th) decreases to 13.83% (12th)

On the PP, everything has gotten slightly to moderately worse, except shots %. The thing that dropped the most? Goaltending.

Let's evaluate why the PP might be worse. There was one major change to how our PP worked between those 2 samples. Our team switched from using 2 split units to stacking 1 unit. Now, normally, this wouldn't be an issue. However, Babcock did something that pretty much nobody else does when they do this. He, for some reason, kept the same PP TOI distribution between his 2 units. This neutered the overall impact of the PP for the team, and made our team stats worse. Half of our time was wasted with a mediocre group with no high impact player on the ice.

This is no longer an issue, and personally, I don't have much concern for our abilities on the PP moving forward. Based on comments by others, this is where I would assume most others would also have the least concern going forward. Our improvements at ES and on the PK more than make up for it anyway. My one wish for the PP is that we stop endlessly passing back in our entry, wasting tons of time, but I'm not sure who exactly this directive is coming from.

So we're left with one final question. Why is our goaltending so much worse?

Has team defense gotten worse?

ES: 25th -> 21st
PK: 20th -> 8th
PP: 24th -> 29th

No. Team defense has improved slightly at ES, improved significantly on the PK, and gotten slightly worse on the PP. Team defense certainly doesn't explain the drop.

When we look closer, why becomes clear. First reason, Andersen's play has fallen off a cliff on special teams. On the PP, Andersen's SV% has dropped from 0.932 to 0.900. On the PK, Andersen's SV% dropped from 0.889 to 0.852, despite team defense on the PK improving significantly. To put this in perspective, Andersen has the worst PK save percentage of all of our goalies to have played in 2018-2019 or 2019-2020. Yes, you heard me right. Worse than Campbell, Sparks, Hutchinson, and even Kaskisuo.

Second reason, the backup. Has our backup been great for most of 2018-2020? No. Does that normally have significant impacts? No. One big reason why our overall goaltending has gotten worse when compared to specifically 2017-2018, is that in 2017-2018, we had a 35 year old journeyman backup fluke into a Vezina-quality season, for seemingly no reason other than luck over a small sample.

And no, I don't exaggerate when I say that. At all strengths, of all goalies who played 250 or more minutes in 2017-2018, McBackup had the #1 best goals saved above average in the league, by a significant amount. He had the #1 best save percentage. He was not that level of player. At all. It was wildly unsustainable.

So we're left with a better team at ES. A better team on the PK. A slightly worse team on the PP, for reasons that look to be tied to Babcock, not Dubas or the construction of the team. And then we're left with worse goaltending, for two reasons. One reason was a combination of the unavoidable drop-off of our backup's fluke 2017-2018 season, as well as the lack of quality backup for most of that time (literally the only negative that can be tied to Dubas, for something which usually has a fairly small impact). The part of that that could be addressed by Dubas, has been. A quality backup in Campbell was brought in. The second reason was Andersen's worse individual play, but he was one of our best players for 3 years before this current one, so expecting Dubas to have done something or seen this coming, was unreasonable. Going forward, Andersen should bounce back from his year this year, and we look to have a quality backup.

In answer to the question about my optimism level, there are two answers, in a way. I was more optimistic in 2017-2018, because I was naive, and I didn't understand how inflated 2017-2018 really was, relative to where we actually were as a team. Everything was coming up Milhouse at that point. We were ahead of our development cycle and playing with house money, and we kept getting really lucky. However, I am more optimistic now going forward than I should have been in 2017-2018, based on the reality of the situation. We are in a much better position now.
 
The drop in PP is most likely that high ankle sprain Mitchy suffered. He looked way off even though he was keeping his number totals up.
 
The drop in PP is most likely that high ankle sprain Mitchy suffered.
That is possible. He is an integral part to our PP. Another possible way injuries have affected the PP:

In the 2017-2018 season, we lost 30 man games from our top 9 PP TOI players, out of 738 possible. About 4%
In the 2018-2020 seasons, we lost 135 man games from our top 9 PP TOI players, out of 1216 possible. About 11%.
 
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Less, Much much much less. infact I try not to worry about the leafs anymore and just hope for success for my fantasy leagues. Signing Tavares was a major mistake. I was happy when we signed him but I knew it was going to hurt us.
I don't see us making any noise for the next couple seasons. most likely a bubble team. The cap is the real enemy now
 
I genuinely have no f***ing clue what goes through Shanahan's head sometimes..

"Yeah we're gonna roll with a GM who's going to invest super heavy in 4 forwards and keep a coach who prefers to spread out ice time among 4 lines and evenly split PP time between 2 units oh WHOOPS he gave more TOI to Brown and Marleau than the center we just paid $11.7M in game 7 to oh well we better bring him back next year I'm sure they'll get along eventually"
 
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One thing I like about Dubas is he tries to make decision that have long term implications. If the cap doesn’t increase significantly he’ll have his work cut out trying to get this team into contention in the next couple of years.
 
One thing I like about Dubas is he tries to make decision that have long term implications. If the cap doesn’t increase significantly he’ll have his work cut out trying to get this team into contention in the next couple of years.

That would make sense if our expensive pieces weren't desirable. If you want to fix our cap "problems" tomorrow, teams will line up to give us a heavy futures package with a one year cap dump for Marner.

You'd have a hard time finding a combination of players that are available for 10 mil that contribute more to winning than Marner does though.
 
That would make sense if our expensive pieces weren't desirable. If you want to fix our cap "problems" tomorrow, teams will line up to give us a heavy futures package with a one year cap dump for Marner.

You'd have a hard time finding a combination of players that are available for 10 mil that contribute more to winning than Marner does though.
Getting rid of top end talent may be easy but it will not get them closer to contending. Dubas will have to get rid of salary and one guy I’d hate to see get away is Hyman who is due a raise after next season.
 
Sometimes more and sometimes less. Always a snapshot in time.

Watching the Michael Jordan documentary, I'm feeling more optimistic.
 
Getting rid of top end talent may be easy but it will not get them closer to contending. Dubas will have to get rid of salary and one guy I’d hate to see get away is Hyman who is due a raise after next season.

What I'm saying is that "cap problems" are when you're against the cap with contracts that you can't move. Someone like NYI is in more "cap trouble" than we are because nobody wants mediocre players like Lee at 7x7 through his 30s.

Why move a guy like Hyman when you can just replace guys like Clifford and Kerfoot with Marlies and give Hyman part of the savings? Our development/Euro FA system is good at producing viable bottom-6ers on cheap contracts. We could realistically fit in another big (8-9 mil) contract for someone like Pietrangelo by moving Johnsson+Kerfoot without hurting our depth much, if at all.

Just being at the cap ceiling is not the same thing as having cap problems. If Dubas' vision isn't a winning one, the next guy will not have a hard time getting back assets for our core and retooling it on the fly. It's not the heap of trash Burke/Nonis left us with that only brought back Kapanen, a late 1st, and a couple 2nds.
 
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