Are you feeling more or less optimistic about the leafs future since Dubas took over?

[IPS]

If Lehtonen can transfer over well, likely better than this year's defense, which even while massively injured, was league-average and better than any other year under this core. If the cap is remaining flat, many other teams face more difficult losses and team composition issues.

You want roll that majorly inexperienced defenses core and put rookies Lehtonen and Sandin on their offsides and insist this defense will be "league average". You got another thing coming pal

 

[Dekes For Days]

Due to both the Leafs salary cap management and failed attempts to improve the RHD position both Barrie and Ceci are going to walk as UFA.

This is a wild misrepresentation.

a previously undrafted 26 year old Mikko Lehtonen who has never played a minute in the NHL

Weird way to describe a star defenseman in his prime in the next best professional league.

That leaves youngster Liljegren who has 11 NHL games experience as the only right side Dman on the Leafs depth chart.

This is not true.

Our Leafs already surrendered the 5th most goals against this year, and that was with NHLer's Barrie and Ceci, and now we're hoping "addition by subtraction" somehow the Leafs defense gets better next year.

The Leafs were 6th last in GA, not 5th. And that was primarily due to bottom of the league goaltending, not middle of the pack defense. It's hilarious how many called Barrie and Ceci liabilities and negatives, and are now panicking at the idea of losing them.

 

[ACC1224]

Yikes !!!! ... Due to both the Leafs salary cap management and failed attempts to improve the RHD position both Barrie and Ceci are going to walk as UFA.

That leaves Justin Holl a 28 year old journeyman Dman as Leafs only and best right hand dman standing for next year.

Leafs are hoping a previously undrafted 26 year old Mikko Lehtonen who has never played a minute in the NHL can immediately jump in and play a top 4 role. We have to hope this turns out better than the Igor Ozhiganov former KHL experiment did, because you never know how these "free wallets" will turn out. If it doesn't work out however no big deal as he will be turning 27 and be a UFA at seasons end. However we're asking a LHD to switch sides and hit the ground running as a Top 4 Dman playing 20 minutes a night against top line opposition players.

That leaves youngster Liljegren who has 11 NHL games experience as the only right side Dman on the Leafs depth chart.

The LHD will have Rielly, Muzzin and youngster Sandin with unsigned RFA Dermott with Marincin and Rosen as spares.

Our Leafs already surrendered the 5th most goals against this year, and that was with NHLer's Barrie and Ceci, and now we're hoping "addition by subtraction" somehow the Leafs defense gets better next year.

We're seriously suppose to be optimistic about Leafs future going forward and being serious Cup contenders with a right side Defense of Holl, Lehtonen and Liljegren, that is closer to a Marlies AHL quality defense than NHL one?

Good post. Look forward to the hilarious spin that will be applied.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You want roll that majorly inexperienced defenses core and put rookies Lehtonen and Sandin on their offsides and insist this defense will be "league average".

Actually, I have specifically said that we don't know how that will end up, or what the plan is. We are like half of a year away from next season. However, we do have options and 6 NHL ready defensemen at least, even with zero moves, and the claims of cap hell are based on nothing.

Our defense was league average this year with a defense consisting of most of those players with less experience, even as some of the best ones went out with significant injuries.

 

[All Mod Cons]

The rest are:

-Player in his prime, who already played most of the year in the top-4 on the shutdown pairing.
-Player in his prime, who is one of the best defensemen in the next best professional league in the world.
-Young player, who already got a taste of the NHL, who is one of the best defensive prospects in the world.
-Young player, who effectively took on a lot of extra responsibilities through significant injuries this year.

There are always risks and question marks going into every year for every team. I don't know why some expect the Leafs to be perfect, unlike every other team in the league.

That's exactly my concern. That those players are in their prime. I was hoping they could be better. I don't care about age or where a player is from, but that defense just isn't good enough. Period. Shift it around, put players on their offside, i just don't think it's a good enough six man unit.

Some of that could be offset by employing a low event playing style like Anaheim, Minny or like the Blues used to but we know that's the opposite style to what management wants to employ. We also don't have the forward group to do that.

I don't expect them to be perfect, but i would love them to attempt to be a more balanced team.

 

[Dekes For Days]

That's exactly my concern. That those players are in their prime. I was hoping they could be better.

Only 2 of those 4 players mentioned are in their primes. One has excelled in multiple professional leagues, and was one of the best defensemen in the KHL this year. Not sure how you can say that you hoped he was better. The other is a player that provided way more value this year than was ever expected; not sure how you can say that about him either.

I don't care about age or where a player is from, but that defense just isn't good enough. Period.

You don't know that at all. Period.

 

[deletethis]

Basic zone exit plays become much more difficult for both guys when it's 2 lefties. A lot easier to ring it around the boards to your right handed partner who can immediately start looking for exit passes on his forehand than to ring it around to a lefty who needs to corral the puck and adjust position to start looking for exits. Some guys know how to do it real well (Hjalmarrson and Hainsey are good examples of LHD who know the ins and outs of playing the right side) and others are barely adequate.

Anyone who's expecting Lehtonen (with no NHL experience) to come in here and seamlessly play the right side (some people have slated him on the top pair?!) with no issues is being a little too optimistic. The defense still needs a ton of help.

Great post. It tends to be associated more with skating than body position and natural handedness when it shouldn't be. What you've described is the real awkwardness of it. It's really unnatural to have to perform tasks to the backhand AND with your back the opposition that you normally do on the forehand facing the opposition. It takes a lot of repetition to get comfortable playing that way. I don't think it's something you pick up on the fly during the season. You either play your opposite side for years or you're at a disadvantage relative to natural side.

I wonder whether Hainsey's comfort on his wrong side happened after a decade of losing teams using him there as a stopgap necessity and him eventually becoming proficient at surviving there. I'd take back Hainsey 50% retained for the 2020-21 season. He would still help.

I think part of AHL development for the better left side prospects should be some repetition on their wrong side to discover whether the prospect has an aptitude for the wrong side. Every time these side switches happen we're told it's a lucky accident. I don't think it is. It takes a lot of practice time and game time to get good at it.

 

[Dekes For Days]

It seems like for many, Babcock had more of an influence on their perception of the importance of handedness than they'd like to admit. This was never a concern before him, and this is rarely ever a significant concern for other teams.

Would I like proper handedness? Sure. But you don't blow up a team because some guy who is comfortable playing on his off side has to play on his off side.

 

[ottomaddox]

Good post. Look forward to the hilarious spin that will be applied.

The Pro Dubas Club has to concede on this one. It's ok to admit that improvements need to be made there and that a trade will be the likely outcome.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Only 2 of those 4 players mentioned are in their primes. One has excelled in multiple professional leagues, and was one of the best defensemen in the KHL this year. Not sure how you can say that you hoped he was better. The other is a player that provided way more value this year than was ever expected; not sure how you can say that about him either.

You don't know that at all. Period.

Well you can call me some sort of genius clairvoyant after the season then. Take a step back. No need to defend Kyle until your dying breath.

If you think that defense is good enough to go beyond a round in the playoffs then I'm lost for words. Every Maple Leafs player isn't amazing.

Now before you respond to each word separately, you didn't specifically say "Every Maple Leafs player is awesome" it's just what you insinuate with every post. The excuses, the farts per 15, the migraines per fortnight etc.

That defense is donkey balls of they're actually trying to win a Cup. Hopefully some more moves are made.

 

[Dekes For Days]

It's ok to admit that improvements need to be made there and that a trade will be the likely outcome.

Is a trade of our forward depth for defense depth possible and potentially beneficial, if the right target is found? Yep, and nobody has said otherwise.
Are we doomed to failure with that defense if there isn't a proper target available for a good price? Not at all.

 

[Dekes For Days]

No need to defend Kyle until your dying breath.

I don't. I defend reality and facts instead of heavily skewed perceptions and assumptions.

Every Maple Leafs player isn't amazing.

No, every Leaf player isn't amazing, and I have never said or insinuated that they are. What I do like to do, is properly evaluate them based on the facts, instead of based on perception and emotion.

 

[Mess]

Anyone who's expecting Lehtonen (with no NHL experience) to come in here and seamlessly play the right side (some people have slated him on the top pair?!) with no issues is being a little too optimistic. The defense still needs a ton of help.

We have to remain positive here and embrace the fact and trust in the belief that Dubas has a keen eye for talent evaluation ...

Last summer remember he brought in Teemu Kivihalme as well as Kevin Gravel, Jordan Schmaltz, Ben Harpur to shore up the defense. The year previously we got Igor Ozhiganov, Calle Rosen, Andreas Borgman etc. All sorts of fan optimism existed in some form or another as they we're being penciled into Dubas' Leafs future starting line-ups.

Mikko Lehonten is the shiny new hail marry being tossed out here as our new Top 4 dman to save the Leafs defense. A left dman asked to switch sides to his right and play top 4 minutes with zero minutes of NHL experience against the best of the opposition nightly, with no previous NHL team previously showing any interest in the 26 year old undrafted Dman.

If you asked most Leaf fans if they knew who Lehtonen was, or if they ever remember watching him play prior to Dubas signing him most would say "they had no idea" as his signing came out of left field.

What could possibly go wrong here I ask?

 

[deletethis]

Reality is Liljegren is more likely to handle playing the right side at the NHL level than any of Lehtonen, Dermott or Sandin.

I'm not concerned that Dubas would be foolish enough to enter an NHL season with 2 rookie right side defenders and one right side defenseman with less than 100 NHL games experience. He's not that arrogant. He exhibited last summer that he recognized the need to acquire at least have 2 experienced right side defenders to share the ice with the inexperienced Holl. But there will be a price to pay to work on this need: a couple of forwards (Kerfoot/Kapanen/Johnsson) and/or a defenseman (Dermott/Sandin/Rielly).

 

[Dekes For Days]

Last summer remember he brought in Teemu Kivihalme as well as Kevin Gravel, Jordan Schmaltz, Ben Harpur to shore up the defense. The year previously we got Igor Ozhiganov, Calle Rosen, Andreas Borgman etc. All sorts of fan optimism existed in some form or another as they we're being penciled into Dubas' Leafs future starting line-ups. Mikko Lehonten is the shiny new hail marry being tossed out here as our new Top 4 dman to save the Leafs defense.

Lehtonen is objectively on a completely different level than any of the other players you mentioned, and it's not about projection like it was for many of those; it's about what he is right now.

with no previous NHL team previously showing any interest in the 26 year old undrafted Dman.

He was heavily pursued by multiple teams, to play for them in the NHL.

 

[deletethis]

Well you can call me some sort of genius clairvoyant after the season then. Take a step back. No need to defend Kyle until your dying breath.

It's not really defending Dubas anyways. There's no way Dubas isn't acquiring at least 1 veteran right side defenseman probably 2 in the off-season.

 

[All Mod Cons]

It's not really defending Dubas anyways. There's no way Dubas isn't acquiring at least 1 veteran right side defenseman probably 2 in the off-season.

Yeah you could be right. Not many trade chips though. Assuming the big 4 stay, you've only got Johnsson and Kapanen to trade away. Unless he unloads more 1st round picks and prospects??

 

[IPS]

It's not really defending Dubas anyways. There's no way Dubas isn't acquiring at least 1 veteran right side defenseman probably 2 in the off-season.

IMO the best type of move that can be made with our current situation would be targeting a guy like Boychuk in NYI at a retained salary in exchange for Johnsson. I'm not sure what a combination of Johnsson/Kerfoot/Kapanen can return in regards to a premium RHD.

One thing Dubas excels at is finding these cheap effective bottom-6 players like Mikheyev and Engvall. Barabanov looks to be another great find that can slot in as a cheap option if Kapanen/Johnsson get traded.

 

[The Podium]

We have to remain positive here and embrace the fact and trust in the belief that Dubas has a keen eye for talent evaluation ...

Last summer remember he brought in Teemu Kivihalme as well as Kevin Gravel, Jordan Schmaltz, Ben Harpur to shore up the defense. The year previously we got Igor Ozhiganov, Calle Rosen, Andreas Borgman etc. All sorts of fan optimism existed in some form or another as they we're being penciled into Dubas' Leafs future starting line-ups.

Mikko Lehonten is the shiny new hail marry being tossed out here as our new Top 4 dman to save the Leafs defense. A left dman asked to switch sides to his right and play top 4 minutes with zero minutes of NHL experience against the best of the opposition nightly, with no previous NHL team previously showing any interest in the 26 year old undrafted Dman.

If you asked most Leaf fans if they knew who Lehtonen was, or if they ever remember watching him play prior to Dubas signing him most would say "they had no idea" as his signing came out of left field.

What could possibly go wrong here I ask?

You are grasping at straws here... No rational Leaf fan thought anything of Kivihalme, Gravel, Schmaltz, Harpur, Rosen, Oz, or Borgman. Im pretty sure the vast majority considered them #7's or early injury call ups.

Also Lehtonen was already big name before he signed here, especially for anyone who follows the KHL to see who would be good enough to come over. He was a WC all star and Finlands #1D 2 years ago after which it was speculated that hed be coming to the NHL, but rumours fizzled when he signed a 2 year deal. There were still speculations that hed buy out the last year if he had the right opportunity. Although, my viewing was/is very limited, I still knew the name

Lets not pretend that Leaf fans are all sheep. Its pretty insulting.

 

[The Podium]

For anyone concerned about shoring up our D, unless its a homerun I dont see Dubas making any moves there except maybe a short term deal for a vet like Braun. With the expansion draft next offseason, any D brought in means that either they, or Dermott, will be exposed or traded.

 

[deletethis]

IMO the best type of move that can be made with our current situation would be targeting a guy like Boychuk in NYI at a retained salary in exchange for Johnsson. I'm not sure what a combination of Johnsson/Kerfoot/Kapanen can return in regards to a premium RHD.

One thing Dubas excels at is finding these cheap effective bottom-6 players like Mikheyev and Engvall. Barabanov looks to be another great find that can slot in as a cheap option if Kapanen/Johnsson get traded.

My concern is that Boychuk is getting long in the tooth. His role with the Isles has dropped to 3rd pairing. I liked the player at a younger age, he was skilled and hard without taking a lot of penalties. NYI might make that deal because Boychuk's role has shrunken. Pro sports are cruel, there's a chance that Johnsson will never reach his 2018-19 level again after shredding his knee. This trade is at best for 2nd pairing minutes, probably 3rd pairing minutes.

I've been suggested using Rielly in trades in other threads. Not because I'm clamouring to lose him but because the team could afford to lose him. Trading away Rielly and Johnsson comes close to freeing up the money to sign Alex Pietrangelo. I would only be looking for entry level contracts and futures for those two. Johnsson could be moved for a mid round draft pick. Rielly could return an entry level NHL forward plus other substantial futures. Some of these futures could be parlayed into that other trade deadline right side defender. This is not as bad as first blush: Rielly and Johnsson for Alex Pietrangelo plus multiple futures. This makes the Leafs a little young on the left side behind Muzzin but it's a list of guys playing their natural side.

 

[ACC1224]

Well you can call me some sort of genius clairvoyant after the season then. Take a step back. No need to defend Kyle until your dying breath.

If you think that defense is good enough to go beyond a round in the playoffs then I'm lost for words. Every Maple Leafs player isn't amazing.

Now before you respond to each word separately, you didn't specifically say "Every Maple Leafs player is awesome" it's just what you insinuate with every post. The excuses, the farts per 15, the migraines per fortnight etc.

That defense is donkey balls of they're actually trying to win a Cup. Hopefully some more moves are made.

Some are strangers to reality.
It takes all kinds to make up a fan base.

 

[Mess]

Lehtonen is objectively on a completely different level than any of the other players you mentioned, and it's not about projection like it was for many of those; it's about what he is right now. .

Quality of Competition Level

2019-20 KHL scoring Leaders
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6. Mikko Lehtonen (D) - Jokerit .............................................. 60 games 17-32-49 points
vs.
7. Nikita Soshnikov (RW) - Salavat Yulaev Ufa .............. 58 games 27-21-48 points
14. Peter Holland (C) - Avtomobilist Yekaterinburg .. 60 games 17-26-43 points

(Elite Prospects - KHL Stats 2019-2020)

Good reference points for comparison as ex-Leafs Soshnikov and Holland were #7 and #14 in KHL scoring, both well known to Leaf fans as to the level of NHLers they were.

When he gets to the NHL he won't be tasked with playing against KHL stars like Sosh and Holland and a bunch of other NHL washout level players, he will be playing against Ov, Crosby, McDavid etc.

Adjust expectations accordingly & taking a LHD and placing him as RHD partner with zero NHL experience with Morgan Rielly as Leafs top pairing, as you did earlier and claiming Leafs are in a great position for next year seems too bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, rose-coloured optimistic take for my blood. IMHO

Rielly (5) - Lehtonen (0.9)
Muzzin (5.6) - Holl (2)
Dermott (???) - Sandin (0.9)

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Quality of Competition Level

2019-20 KHL scoring Leaders
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6. Mikko Lehtonen (D) - Jokerit .............................................. 60 games 17-32-49 points
vs.
7. Nikita Soshnikov (RW) - Salavat Yulaev Ufa .............. 58 games 27-21-48 points
14. Peter Holland (C) - Avtomobilist Yekaterinburg .. 60 games 17-26-43 points

(Elite Prospects - KHL Stats 2019-2020)

Good reference points for comparison as ex-Leafs Soshnikov and Holland were #7 and #14 in KHL scoring, both well known to Leaf fans as to the level of NHLers they were.

When he gets to the NHL he won't be tasked with playing against KHL stars like Sosh and Holland and a bunch of other NHL washout level players, he will be playing against Ov, Crosby, McDavid etc.

Adjust expectations accordingly & taking a LHD and placing him as RHD partner with zero NHL experience with Morgan Rielly as Leafs top pairing, as you did earlier and claiming Leafs are in a great position for next year seems too bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, rose-coloured optimistic take for my blood. IMHO

Rielly (5) - Lehtonen (0.9)
Muzzin (5.6) - Holl (2)
Dermott (???) - Sandin (0.9)

I'm not sure the purpose of comparing forwards to defensemen by looking at points, but that's okay. We did get to see what Lehtonen could do against top NHL talent when he was one of the best defensemen at the World Championships and won a gold medal with a team full of the same KHL (and Liiga) talent you're putting down here

 

[Dekes For Days]

Quality of Competition Level
2019-20 KHL scoring Leaders

Not only does this show a lack of understanding of how quality of competition impacts players, it shows a lack of understanding of how to measure it.

Good reference points

You should go remind Minny fans that Kaprizov sucks too. Oh, and apparently Mikyehev is worthless; he scored even less points than Lehtonen as a forward! No point in re-signing him I guess, right? Oh, we might want to remind Chicago fans and NYR fans that Panarin sucks; he barely outscored NHL journeyman Nigel Dawes in his best year in that garbage KHL league! You should go tell them that, if they're not too busy watching Panarin be one of the best players in the NHL.

When he gets to the NHL... he will be playing against Ov, Crosby, McDavid etc.

You have no idea where he will be playing or who against. The roster was posted because you were making misleading comments about their available cap space. It was not posted because those roles are locked in. The point is, we have a good NHL roster (with time to improve it) with almost all spots filled with quality NHL talent, and reasonable cap space to re-sign the rest, which is a way better position than the large majority of teams.