Are you comfortable with a claim of OV being the GOAT goalscorer?

[JasonRoseEh]

Your point was Lemieux's use on the PK wasn't due to his goal scoring? I mean, sure...

Based on other follow-up comments, I can see there's little upside here anyhow. You can have the last word if you want it...

I'm not sure why you can't quote tweet me and no, I'm saying specifically he was used on the PK BECAUSE of his goal scoring but that doesn't happen in the modern era of hockey. Even Crosby hardly plays on the PK now and he's a much better defensive talent than Lemieux ever was along with being a pretty strong gamebreaker.

Trying to claim the game hasn't changed much in terms of the PK here is pretty daft, wearing your best players out on the penalty kill now is not a sustainable recipe particularly with shot velocity. McDavid has even seen his time significantly reduced.

 

[wetcoast]

Tom Brady is clearly NOT the most skilled thrower of the football in terms of range of abilities (not great at bootlegging, scrambling or the long ball) but he is the greatest in terms of accomplishments (due to team AND in great part: preparedness, clutch play, short-range accuracy, positioning in the pocket).

Gretzky is the Brady of goal scorers in hockey. His accomplishments dwarf others due to team AND in great part: hockey sense, threat to pass on every shot opportunity (imagine what goalies had to expect) and decision making. He didn't have the hardest shot, the quickest shot or the best deke moves to maneuver netside.

One of the problems with having Gretzky as "the greatest goals scorer of all time" is that he doesn't have a top 10 finish all time in goals after the age of 28.

For similar reasons as to why Ovechkin has diminished slightly as an overall player, you have to use the same standard for Gretzky as a goal scorer diminishing as well.

This is one of the reasons that I already consider Ovechkin as the greatest goal scorer of all time.

Say what you want of him as an overall player he has no equal in accomplishments as a goal scorer in the history of hockey.

 

[VanIslander]

One of the problems with having Gretzky as "the greatest goals scorer of all time" is that he doesn't have a top 10 finish all time in goals after the age of 28.

?
Bobby Orr played his last full season at age 26.

Do you doubt he's the greatest defenseman ever and one of the top-4 players ever?
....
Gretzky had 50+ goals each of his first 9 seasons, scoring 500 goals by age 26.

 

[sr edler]

I'm not going to dig up articles and pieces from decades ago when you're capable of doing so, but Lemieux was absolutely lamented for poor, disinterested defensive play for much of his early career.

We're comparing him to Mr. Controller Disconnect here, not to Bob Gainey. Lemieux most definitely got a lot of flack (deservedly) for being lazy at times, but I've still got a lot more faith in someone who is at times lazy than someone who is inherently unable.

I'm not sure why you can't quote tweet me and no, I'm saying specifically he was used on the PK BECAUSE of his goal scoring but that doesn't happen in the modern era of hockey. Even Crosby hardly plays on the PK now and he's a much better defensive talent than Lemieux ever was along with being a pretty strong gamebreaker.

Trying to claim the game hasn't changed much in terms of the PK here is pretty daft, wearing your best players out on the penalty kill now is not a sustainable recipe particularly with shot velocity. McDavid has even seen his time significantly reduced.

He's not quoting you because he's scared you will throw them scary advanced stats spreadsheets from the mainboard right in his face.

Mika Zibanejad averaged 2:37 minutes per game on the penalty kill this season and was lighting it up, having a killer season offensively too. Another high octane forward offensively speaking with over 2 SH minutes per game this season was Mitchell Marner (2:11). Brad Marchand's played 1:34 per game on the average this season. Leon Draisaitl for much of this season averaged above a minute per game (landed on 0:52 per game) and won the Art Ross Trophy.

Then there's the usual two way crowd Ryan O'Reilly, Patrice Bergeron, Anze Kopitar, et cetera. But I guess these guys are not "modern era". Bergeron in fact debuted in the NHL prior to the 2nd lockout which effectively makes him a living curiosity.

 

[GOilers88]

If he can't surpass Gretzky then no.

If he does, how could you dispute it.

 

[JackSlater]

I'm not sure why you can't quote tweet me and no, I'm saying specifically he was used on the PK BECAUSE of his goal scoring but that doesn't happen in the modern era of hockey. Even Crosby hardly plays on the PK now and he's a much better defensive talent than Lemieux ever was along with being a pretty strong gamebreaker.

Trying to claim the game hasn't changed much in terms of the PK here is pretty daft, wearing your best players out on the penalty kill now is not a sustainable recipe particularly with shot velocity. McDavid has even seen his time significantly reduced.

Say what you will about Lemieux's defensive effort most times but he was a quality penalty killer. Huge, fast guys with great reach and anticipation can wreak havoc on the penalty kill even if they have hands of stone on a breakaway. I think that a 25 year old Lemieux would get his share of penalty killing time depending on game situations today.

 

[wetcoast]

Tom Brady is clearly NOT the most skilled thrower of the football in terms of range of abilities (not great at bootlegging, scrambling or the long ball) but he is the greatest in terms of accomplishments (due to team AND in great part: preparedness, clutch play, short-range accuracy, positioning in the pocket).

Gretzky is the Brady of goal scorers in hockey. His accomplishments dwarf others due to team AND in great part: hockey sense, threat to pass on every shot opportunity (imagine what goalies had to expect) and decision making. He didn't have the hardest shot, the quickest shot or the best deke moves to maneuver netside.

One of the problems with having Gretzky as "the greatest goals scorer of all time" is that he doesn't have a top 10 finish all time in goals after the age of 28.

For similar reasons as to why Ovechkin has diminished slightly as an overall player, you have to use the same standard for Gretzky as a goal scorer diminishing as well.

This is one of the reasons that I already consider Ovechkin as the greatest goal scorer of all time.

Say what you want of him as an overall player he has no equal in accomplishments as a goal scorer in the history of hockey.

 

[wetcoast]

?
Bobby Orr played his last full season at age 26.

Do you doubt he's the greatest defenseman ever and one of the top-4 players ever?
....
Gretzky had 50+ goals each of his first 9 seasons, scoring 500 goals by age 26.

There are reasons as to why Gretzky scored 500 goals by age 26, the 80's scoring rates and team composition and philosophy in addition to his goal scoring exploits but at some point Ovechkin's longer period of eliteness in goal scoring has to be taken into account doesn't it?

What does Bobby Orr have to do with this question BTW?

Yes he was one of the greatest Dmen, and the greatest in most people's eyes, but that doesn't take away form the fact that other Dmen had much longer primes and stretches of greatness than Orr did.

Longevity and being consistently great are also variables to look at in terms of all time greatness aren't they?

And that's where Ovechkin clearly trumps Gretzky in terms of goal scoring there is no way around that fact.

 

[67 others]

There are reasons as to why Gretzky scored 500 goals by age 26, the 80's scoring rates and team composition and philosophy in addition to his goal scoring exploits but at some point Ovechkin's longer period of eliteness in goal scoring has to be taken into account doesn't it?

What does Bobby Orr have to do with this question BTW?

Yes he was one of the greatest Dmen, and the greatest in most people's eyes, but that doesn't take away form the fact that other Dmen had much longer primes and stretches of greatness than Orr did.

Longevity and being consistently great are also variables to look at in terms of all time greatness aren't they?

And that's where Ovechkin clearly trumps Gretzky in terms of goal scoring there is no way around that fact.

Peak and prime are most important to me.

Orr is so far above the 2nd best prime that it is not even close or ever questioned. He was the top guy offensively on the blueline and top 10 all time just defensively.

 

[wetcoast]

Peak and prime are most important to me.

Orr is so far above the 2nd best prime that it is not even close or ever questioned. He was the top guy offensively on the blueline and top 10 all time just defensively.

What exactly are you using for peak and prime here?

Generally peak is a consecutive 3 year period and prime a consecutive 7 year period.

Mike Green has an awesome 3 year peak for Dmen. Does that make him better historically than say Keith Yandle?

Peak and prime are important but being considered the best goal scorer in the league for pretty much the majority of 15 seasons has to count for a lot as well right?

 

[sr edler]

Mike Green has an awesome 3 year peak for Dmen.

Offensively perhaps, on a team that fired on those particular cylinders. And it's not like he challenged for the Ross anyways. Overall meh though.

Does that make him better historically than say Keith Yandle?

They're probably in the same kind of boat. If your Caribbean cruise company had 3 big boats named Gloria, Esmeralda and Bruno, then Green and Yandle both probably works as croupiers on Bruno.

 

[wetcoast]

Offensively perhaps, on a team that fired on those particular cylinders. And it's not like he challenged for the Ross anyways. Overall meh though.



They're probably in the same kind of boat. If your Caribbean cruise company had 3 big boats named Gloria, Esmeralda and Bruno, then Green and Yandle both probably works as croupiers on Bruno.

My point is that on some level an extended prime and level of very good to elite play count for something.

Orr say in comparison to Harvey, Bourque, Lidstrom and Potvin has absolutely nothing outside of 8 full season and then a 46 game age 19 season and then seasons of 20, 10 and 6 games.

The other 4 guys with peaks not as high as Orr sure gain a lot of ground in their seasons after comparing the top 8 seasons one would think.

Anyways this is a bit of a distraction and off topic from the thread itself.

 

[wetcoast]

Offensively perhaps, on a team that fired on those particular cylinders. And it's not like he challenged for the Ross anyways. Overall meh though.



They're probably in the same kind of boat. If your Caribbean cruise company had 3 big boats named Gloria, Esmeralda and Bruno, then Green and Yandle both probably works as croupiers on Bruno.

My point is that on some level an extended prime and level of very good to elite play count for something.

Orr say in comparison to Harvey, Bourque, Lidstrom and Potvin has absolutely nothing outside of 8 full season and then a 46 game age 19 season and then seasons of 20, 10 and 6 games.

The other 4 guys with peaks not as high as Orr sure gain a lot of ground in their seasons after comparing the top 8 seasons one would think.

Anyways this is a bit of a distraction and off topic from the thread itself.

 

[GOilers88]

There are reasons as to why Gretzky scored 500 goals by age 26, the 80's scoring rates and team composition and philosophy in addition to his goal scoring exploits but at some point Ovechkin's longer period of eliteness in goal scoring has to be taken into account doesn't it?

What does Bobby Orr have to do with this question BTW?

Yes he was one of the greatest Dmen, and the greatest in most people's eyes, but that doesn't take away form the fact that other Dmen had much longer primes and stretches of greatness than Orr did.

Longevity and being consistently great are also variables to look at in terms of all time greatness aren't they?

And that's where Ovechkin clearly trumps Gretzky in terms of goal scoring there is no way around that fact.

When Player A has more goals than Player B, Player B does not trump Player A in terms of goal scoring.

You can use whatever crazy logic you want to show why Gretzky playing when and against who he did somehow makes him a lesser scorer than Ovi, but that doesn't make it true.

If Ovi can't score more career goals than Gretzky, nobody in their right mind can claim he was a better goalscorer. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

 

[Michael Farkas]

That's an unreasonable opinion. Not that Gretzky is the greatest goal scorer, but how you come to your conclusion is unreasonable. Otherwise, why discuss anything? Just sort by goals or points. Sort by GAA for goalies, their goal is to keep the puck out. Who's the best now? Alec Connell, right?

My scouting career is over now too I suppose...just sort by points and pick. Easy peazy...

 

[wetcoast]

When Player A has more goals than Player B, Player B does not trump Player A in terms of goal scoring.

You can use whatever crazy logic you want to show why Gretzky playing when and against who he did somehow makes him a lesser scorer than Ovi, but that doesn't make it true.

If Ovi can't score more career goals than Gretzky, nobody in their right mind can claim he was a better goalscorer. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

You are right Mike Gartner is a better goal scorer all time than Ovechkin, Esposito, Bossy, Selanne, Bobby Hull.......you get the picture you are painting here right?

Single season, Ovechkin tops out with only a tie for 23rd, Maurice Ricard lands in at a tie for 159th all time best goal scoring season.

Rethink your potion and statement here a bit as context does matter.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

When Player A has more goals than Player B, Player B does not trump Player A in terms of goal scoring.

You can use whatever crazy logic you want to show why Gretzky playing when and against who he did somehow makes him a lesser scorer than Ovi, but that doesn't make it true.

If Ovi can't score more career goals than Gretzky, nobody in their right mind can claim he was a better goalscorer. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Simply wrong.

 

[sr edler]

I always thought P. Bure was a slightly better goal scorer than Rick Nash, but those last 11 games Nash played with the Bruins, scoring 3 goals and finishing with 437 in total, had me finally realizing how equal they always were in this department.

Thank god for stats, spreadsheets and the modern era.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

When Player A has more goals than Player B, Player B does not trump Player A in terms of goal scoring.

You can use whatever crazy logic you want to show why Gretzky playing when and against who he did somehow makes him a lesser scorer than Ovi, but that doesn't make it true.

If Ovi can't score more career goals than Gretzky, nobody in their right mind can claim he was a better goalscorer. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Using flat totals when comparing players in a game that has changed more than any other across era is just amateur level comparison. All it does is cement why you want player A to be better than player B, it is not a level playing field.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

We're comparing him to Mr. Controller Disconnect here, not to Bob Gainey. Lemieux most definitely got a lot of flack (deservedly) for being lazy at times, but I've still got a lot more faith in someone who is at times lazy than someone who is inherently unable.



He's not quoting you because he's scared you will throw them scary advanced stats spreadsheets from the mainboard right in his face.

Mika Zibanejad averaged 2:37 minutes per game on the penalty kill this season and was lighting it up, having a killer season offensively too. Another high octane forward offensively speaking with over 2 SH minutes per game this season was Mitchell Marner (2:11). Brad Marchand's played 1:34 per game on the average this season. Leon Draisaitl for much of this season averaged above a minute per game (landed on 0:52 per game) and won the Art Ross Trophy.

Then there's the usual two way crowd Ryan O'Reilly, Patrice Bergeron, Anze Kopitar, et cetera. But I guess these guys are not "modern era". Bergeron in fact debuted in the NHL prior to the 2nd lockout which effectively makes him a living curiosity.

I don't do the spreadsheets, they terrify me, I just let others do the dirty work. Anyhow, good discussion guys appreciate it.

 

[wetcoast]

Offensively perhaps, on a team that fired on those particular cylinders. And it's not like he challenged for the Ross anyways. Overall meh though.



They're probably in the same kind of boat. If your Caribbean cruise company had 3 big boats named Gloria, Esmeralda and Bruno, then Green and Yandle both probably works as croupiers on Bruno.

This is why I love reading your posts.

Can't wait to hear your thoughts on some golden age cinema that I haven't heard before which will cause me to spend 6 hours on wikipedia although I can't remember which movie you referenced right now.

 

[YippieKaey]

When Player A has more goals than Player B, Player B does not trump Player A in terms of goal scoring.

You can use whatever crazy logic you want to show why Gretzky playing when and against who he did somehow makes him a lesser scorer than Ovi, but that doesn't make it true.

If Ovi can't score more career goals than Gretzky, nobody in their right mind can claim he was a better goalscorer. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

So Mike Gartner was a better goalscorer than Mario Lemieux?

 

[billybudd]

I don't think it makes sense to object to "the claim" of OV being the greatest goalscorer of all time. I don't think it's a given that this is right, but it's not so crazy or premature to hold that opinion that it makes any sense to become uncomfortable about the prospect of another person thinking it. At this point, the man has had quite the storied career putting pucks in nets, challenged by only a handful of other people.

 

[Sentinel]

When Player A has more goals than Player B, Player B does not trump Player A in terms of goal scoring.

You can use whatever crazy logic you want to show why Gretzky playing when and against who he did somehow makes him a lesser scorer than Ovi, but that doesn't make it true.

If Ovi can't score more career goals than Gretzky, nobody in their right mind can claim he was a better goalscorer. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

You seriously don't realize they played in different goalscoring environments? You seriously think 700 goals scored in 1980s and 2000s carry the same weight? *That* makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

 

[daver]

Is there any debate that OV's best goalscoring seasons in 07/08 and 09/10 (with consideration for missed games) are not particularly close to being among the very best all-time?

I am referring to in a strict statistical sense, not with subjective opinion that one era is stronger than another.