Are you comfortable with a claim of OV being the GOAT goalscorer?

[JasonRoseEh]

When Wayne Gretzky scored 92 goals in 1981-82, the closest competitor was Mike Bossy, who scored 64. Bossy would have needed to score 43.75% more goals to have tied Gretzky.

Alex Ovechkin's biggest win of the scoring race was 2007-08, when his 65 goals bested Ilya Kovalchuk's 52. Kovalchuk would only have required a 25% increase to have tied OV.

None of which refutes anything I posted originally.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Wanderlei is also my favorite fighter of all time lol. I have every pride event ever made on my harddrive and often bring them out when company is over and alcohol is flowing

The guy was named the axe murderer for a reason.

Rampage is another guy who was much better in Pride than the UFC. Watching his crisp bouncing youthful movement when he beat Liddell in pride(With Dana White looking on in commentary) vs his UFC days is night and day different.

Everyone disparages Fedor for his recent losses but I still consider him one of the GOAT. that man was a beast.

That's hilarious. It's why I have a hard time loving the UFC even now, I just thought PRIDE was better in every conceivable way especially in their presentation. The openings and theme music were absolute fire as was the banshee announcer, Lenne Hardt. MMA has never been as good for me.

Anyway, better stop talking MMA before we get modded.

 

[rmartin65]

As the GOAT? No.

I am comfortable saying that he is in the conversation for GOAT goalscorer? Absolutely. I certainly wouldn't consider someone ignorant for holding that idea (unless their only rationalization has something to do with raw totals or new>old).

 

[authentic]

If Ovechkin retired today, he would absolutely be in the conversation for greatest goal-scorer in NHL history.

Prime - this is probably the strongest part of his case. He placed in the top three in goal-scoring 12 times in 15 seasons (in a 30 team league) - that's nearly unfathomable. Assuming the 2020 season ends here, he has nine goal-scoring crowns in 13 years. The only player who seriously rivals that is Howe (first or second in goal-scoring ten times in 14 years - and of course this was in a smaller league with less of a chance for another player to have a big season).

Career - another major strength. He scored 700 goals already, in a low-scoring era. He has a realistic chance of reaching 800 goals. He already ranks 5th all-time in terms of his era-adjusted career total (based on VsX) and he's around two seasons away from second place. I doubt he catches Howe, but this is another strength in his case.

Peak - eight (nine?) Richard trophies is very impressive, but most of the wins were by relatively small margins (five of them were margins of five goals or fewer). His 2008 season was a historically good season (on par with Gretzky's 92 goal season taking era into account), but none of his other seasons stand out to the same degree. Compare this to, say, Bobby Hull, who dominated the league by huge margins multiple times. Obviously the league is different now, but aside from 2008, Ovechkin's margins of victories aren't much bigger than his peers (Iginla and Stamkos both won goal-scoring titles by 20% margins, which is comparable to Ovechkin's best outside of 2008).

Playoffs - his per-game goal-scoring rate drops about 16% in the postseason - slightly higher than the overall drop in playoff scoring. He only made it out of the second round once (but did very well in the last two rounds of 2018 - seven goals in 12 games). That stretch where he had only 26 goals in 69 playoff games definitely hurts. I wouldn't go as far as calling his playoff goal-scoring a weakness - his Smythe run silenced many critics - but in general, the postseason isn't a strength like it is for other players who have a claim to this title (especially Gretzky and Richard).

Intangibles - there are two main arguments against Ovechkin. The first is that he's predictable. I disagree with this one. I mean, it's literally true in the sense that Ovechkin's goals are less varied (and less aesthetically pleasing) than, say, Lemieux's goals. But we shouldn't be evaluating players based on their YouTube highlights - productivity is what ultimately matters. If Ovechkin truly was predictable, why would he keep winning goal-scoring crowns, year after year?

The other argument is Ovechkin is one-dimensional (in the sense that he has a singular focus on goal-scoring - forget playmaking). There's clearly some truth to this, after his peak ended. (From 2012 onwards, of the top 200 scorers, he has the 2nd lowest assist-to-goal ratio). If we're strictly talking about goal scoring, then this shouldn't matter. He scored the goals he scored, and that's that. But I think it's worth asking if goal-scoring titles with 38, 38, 28, 28, and 21 assists are nearly as impressive as, say, Howe "only" finished 2nd in goals one year, while leading the league in assists. How many more goal-scoring titles would Gretzky, Howe and Lemieux have, if they shot the puck a bit more?

Taking all these factors - yes, there's absolutely an argument for Ovechkin being the greatest goal-scorer in NHL history. But he's one of several players (Richard, Howe, Hull, Gretzky, Lemieux) who can make that claim.

It's funny how you mention his goals being not as fun to look at, and that you shouldn't judge players by their youtube highlights when Ovechkin has arguably the greatest highlight goal reel of any player. His overall highlight package is probably the best.

 

[daver]

Peak goal-scorer? I don't have him #1 - and i don't expect that to change. Gretzky or Lemieux.

Not sure why Hull isn't on your radar on this topic in general and on peak specifically.

NHL.com Stats

Beats 2nd place by 69%, (77% in GPG). The next season it's 49% (58% in GPG).

Mario's 88/89 season:

NHL.com Stats

Beats 2nd place by 21%, (25% in GPG). In 92/93 season it's 15% in GPG.

 

[sr edler]

Soft is conjecture unless you're pointing to fighting as the game is faster and collisions are far more devastating today unless you count random dirty elbows in era's past. Simply put, the game takes more effort and more out of an athlete to play now than ever. There are no scrubs in the modern NHL unlike the 80/90's, everyone can skate, shoot and handle the puck.

There are tons of forgettable players in the league these days. A player like Mario Kempe for instance wouldn't have been near the league in the 90s, and that's just one example. Tanner Glass had a long career just recently. I'm with you that guys like say Link Gaetz and Tony Twist wouldn't make the league today, but it goes both ways with expansion, and those type of guys played exceptionally limited roles back then anyways. Gaetz was on an expansion team and flamed out incredibly fast, and players like Twist often "played" 5 minutes a night.

Everyone can skate, shoot and handle the puck today? Okay, if by "handle" you mean just quickly distribute the puck to the next guy by extending your stick blade, then I agree.

in pretty much the most difficult era to be a great goal scorer.

This is conjecture.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I disagree with it, but am comfortable with it too.

Lemieux is my #1.

If you need that goal, humanity on the line, I want Lemieux to take that shot over everyone else.

 

[Sentinel]

Intangibles - there are two main arguments against Ovechkin. The first is that he's predictable. I disagree with this one. I mean, it's literally true in the sense that Ovechkin's goals are less varied (and less aesthetically pleasing) than, say, Lemieux's goals. But we shouldn't be evaluating players based on their YouTube highlights - productivity is what ultimately matters. If Ovechkin truly was predictable, why would he keep winning goal-scoring crowns, year after year?

I am not sure I agree. Ovy's goals against Phoenix, Montreal, and was it New Jersey (?) are as aesthetically pleasing as they come. In his prime many Ovy's goals were the things of beauty.

Taking all these factors - yes, there's absolutely an argument for Ovechkin being the greatest goal-scorer in NHL history. But he's one of several players (Richard, Howe, Hull, Gretzky, Lemieux) who can make that claim.

Is there a reason you exclude Esposito from this list?

 

[bobholly39]

Not sure why Hull isn't on your radar on this topic in general and on peak specifically.

NHL.com Stats

Beats 2nd place by 69%, (77% in GPG). The next season it's 49% (58% in GPG).

Mario's 88/89 season:

NHL.com Stats

Beats 2nd place by 21%, (25% in GPG). In 92/93 season it's 15% in GPG.

My top 4 goal scorers all time are Gretzky, Hull, Lemieux and Ovi in some order. Howe/Richard make up top 6. Who said Hull isn't on my radar?

For top peak/ability - I simply prefer Lemieux + Gretzky.

I disagree with it, but am comfortable with it too.

Lemieux is my #1.

If you need that goal, humanity on the line, I want Lemieux to take that shot over everyone else.

I don't disagree in essence, as I think he had the best ability or talent at scoring goals. I probably still take Gretzky though. With odds that big - I think think he'd be more likely to come through under pressure. Heck - maybe even Rocket Richard could be a possibility above both.

No offense to Ovechkin - but he falls quite a bit back of the line for me in that hypothetical. Certainly not top 5, maybe even just outside top 10, if humanity was on the line.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I don't disagree in essence, as I think he had the best ability or talent at scoring goals. I probably still take Gretzky though. With odds that big - I think think he'd be more likely to come through under pressure. Heck - maybe even Rocket Richard could be a possibility above both.

No offense to Ovechkin - but he falls quite a bit back of the line for me in that hypothetical. Certainly not top 5, maybe even just outside top 10, if humanity was on the line.

To take a shot? No way. Lemieux is the man. Canada Cup 87.

No one else would give me that deep, lizard brain confidence that he'd score.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

To take a shot? No way. Lemieux is the man. Canada Cup 87.

No one else would give me that deep, lizard brain confidence that he'd score.

Agree with this. Whether it’s a breakaway. 2 on 1 etc. I want Lemieux taking the shot over Gretzky in any scoring scenario

 

[Sentinel]

If Ovechkin retires today (I hope he doesn't), he is in the conversation for Top 3 goalscorers of all time (with Gretzky and Hull Sr). If he is anywhere near the vicinity of Gretzky's record, he becomes undisputed #1 in my eyes and in the eyes of the majority.

I also believe he is now in the Top 10 PLAYERS of all time.

 

[blogofmike]

Bossy scored 573 goals in his career, from 77-78 to 86-87.

During that same 10 season span, Gretzky scored 543 goals despite playing only 8 of those seasons, and the setup man outscored the sniper 427-393 in non-PP goals.

Gretzky and Lemieux are different from the others usually listed in that they scored goals while being exceptional playmakers. They were not "pure" goal scorers. They were better than that.

 

[bobholly39]

To take a shot? No way. Lemieux is the man. Canada Cup 87.

No one else would give me that deep, lizard brain confidence that he'd score.

Ok i take that back - maybe not literally to "take a shot" would I pass on Lemieux for Gretzky. I was looking at it more in a broader sense "to produce a goal" - whether it's setting one up and/or scoring himself - i'd trust Gretzky under pressure a bit more.

If you need one player to be the one taking the actual shot though - yes, Lemieux.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

There are tons of forgettable players in the league these days. A player like Mario Kempe for instance wouldn't have been near the league in the 90s, and that's just one example. Tanner Glass had a long career just recently. I'm with you that guys like say Link Gaetz and Tony Twist wouldn't make the league today, but it goes both ways with expansion, and those type of guys played exceptionally limited roles back then anyways. Gaetz was on an expansion team and flamed out incredibly fast, and players like Twist often "played" 5 minutes a night.

Everyone can skate, shoot and handle the puck today? Okay, if by "handle" you mean just quickly distribute the puck to the next guy by extending your stick blade, then I agree.



This is conjecture.

Early expansion maybe, but the league has seen an influx of global talent that previous eras didn't see the fruits of and it has objectively enriched the league. The modern era of hockey is deeper than it's ever been.

When I say the hardest era to score I meant from when he entered the league throughout. It is not conjecture to say that amongst the all time great goal scorers, Ovechkin has had the most difficult era to score goals in, that is a fact.

 

[CTHabsfan]

None of which refutes anything I posted originally.

In 2007-08, Ovechkin's best goal-scoring season, the top ten players scored 65, 52, 50, 47, 43, 43, 42, 41, 40 and 40. Take Gretzky out of the top ten in 1981-82 and the top ten would be 64, 60, 55, 54, 52, 51, 50, 50, 50 and 46.
You can argue that scoring was easier in 1981-82 than 2007-08, however the difference isn't as vast as you make it seem. You cannot argue that Ovechkin's 65 in 2007-08 was anywhere close to being as impressive as Gretzky's 92 in 1981-82.

 

[The Wizard of Oz]

No. Someone (Chitown?) posted a stat that he's led the league in ES goal scoring once the last 10 years. His era's been quite soft too, and he remodeled himself as a designated trigger man in a style that's not pleasing to my poor brain. I don't like the lack of versatility. The best goal scorer ever should be an all-situations player. Peak Ovi got a case for something that's good, not this last decade guy collecting Richard trophies with an assist ratio that would make Peter Bondra a proud companion.

Mario's probably my favorite. Then I have Bobby Hull. Then Bure.

Let’s not pretend Mario didn’t score a majority of his points on the PP.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Let’s not pretend Mario didn’t score a majority of his points on the PP.

Ovechkin has about 37% of his career goals and 39% of his career assists on the power play. Mario, around 34% and 40%. So Mario's a little more dependent overall but neither are really close to a majority.

 

[authentic]

Let’s not pretend Mario didn’t score a majority of his points on the PP.

Yeah but Lemieux was more often still the best ES scorer while also piling up a ton on the powerplay. Lemieux is the best goal scorer of all time and Ovechkin should be considered the greatest.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

In 2007-08, Ovechkin's best goal-scoring season, the top ten players scored 65, 52, 50, 47, 43, 43, 42, 41, 40 and 40. Take Gretzky out of the top ten in 1981-82 and the top ten would be 64, 60, 55, 54, 52, 51, 50, 50, 50 and 46.
You can argue that scoring was easier in 1981-82 than 2007-08, however the difference isn't as vast as you make it seem. You cannot argue that Ovechkin's 65 in 2007-08 was anywhere close to being as impressive as Gretzky's 92 in 1981-82.

I'm not arguing that scoring was easier in the 70's, 80's and 90's, it factually was.

You can when you use adjusted for era numbers which is what any sane person does. While not a flawless metric, it's certainly more coherent than comparing flat totals. Gretzky's 92 goal season adjusted isn't even one of the 5 best of all time. I'm sure you're going to scoff and stamp your feet but comparative to average scoring in the league then and now, this is what we have.

 

[Fantomas]

Statistically Ovechkin is objectively the best goal scorer of all time. Has now led the league in scoring nine times. But if someone wants to say that Lemieux is the best goal scorer of all time (for other reasons) I'm fine with that as well.

In fact, I go back and forth between the two sometimes. If you want to prioritize a player's peak above all, then who's to say that Mario isn't the best scorer of all time? And besides, has anyone in history made goal scoring look as beautiful and effortless as Lemieux?

But you what, if you rank someone like Bure ahead of Ovechkin you're just being silly.

 

[Zuluss]

There was a thread like that here about whether Ovechkin is the best goal-scorer ever, and I left there three rather lengthy posts that compared Ovechkin and other players in the running for the title, so I will just leave the links to those posts here

Who is the best goal scorer ever?
Who is the best goal scorer ever?
Who is the best goal scorer ever?

The upshot of the three posts: adjusting for the era difference in average dominance over peers, Ovechkin's goal-scoring arc is very similar to Bobby Hull's and Richard's (and also close to Howe's). Their five-year peaks are largely a wash, but then Ovechkin starts to separate himself, slowly but steadily. Ovechkin was in Rocket-worthy form for 11 seasons of his career (including the current one; he was very much in the rnnning in 05/06 and 09/10, but did not win) - whereas Richard, Howe, Bobby Hull "stay in the race" about 8 seasons, not 11.

Compared to Gretzky and Lemieux (and Howe too), Ovechkin lacks 1-2 signature seasons, his absolute peak is indeed lower than theirs. But both Gretzky and Lemieux (even if you extrapolate all incomplete seasons by Lemieux) decline faster, and at the best 5-7 year mark their primes even up, and then Ovechkin's arc is much higher.

The Ovechkin vs. Gretzky comparison is basically this: you have 5 dominant Rocket wins - and then you can choose what to add. Option 1: you can make 2 of the 5 Rockets extra-dominant by adding roughly 8-10 goals to each and then add to them three marginal top5 finishes in goals. Option 2: you can add 5-6 extra seasons when you have a very good shot at the Rocket. As much as I like peak, I would go with the latter option.

 

[Sentinel]

Time and again, it blows my mind how underrated a goalscorer Esposito is.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

I think he's quite easily, the most consistent goal scorer of all time, and if that's your #1 criteria for determining the GOAT, then I have no problem with Ovi taking that spot.

But Gretzky and Lemieux were better goal scorers at their peak.

 

[rmartin65]

Let’s not pretend Mario didn’t score a majority of his points on the PP.

You should probably look up the word "majority".