Are things as bad as we're saying?

[PromisedLand]

Marner the first game, Barrie the second game. After Petry hit Barrie, you could actually see him turn his head to see if/who is going to come after him (and the subsequent Matthews drive-by). I wonder what Petry would have to do for someone on the Leafs to even realize it and respond in some sort of capacity?
The night before, Matthews got clocked with a slightly high hit, and I don’t think anyone on the team even had their heart rate change (to be clear, not calling for Brenden Dillon or anyone to be jumped here, but some element of emotion would be nice to see). At a minimum, you can take a number and get the guy back at some point later in the game. For Petry in particular, that is two straight games taking a piece out of top-of-the lineup Leafs players. I don’t understand how Brendan Shanahan, of all people, stomachs this.

Toronto Maple Leafs Notebook: Is Mike Babcock to blame for a 6-5-2 start?

I've seen enough now to agree.

interesting article. enjoyed the reading with context and some thought put into it instead of blowhard snide comments

 

[PromisedLand]

I actually do think things are very concerning. I don't care for the sample size argument here (which others have said stretches back into last season). The team is lacking real passion in their play at present.

Getting roughed up. No response.

Dubas needs to get on the phone because the makeup of the team is built for international hockey not NHL.

Am gonna have to agree on the bolded here. You pay almost 50% of the cap to four players; then you need to protect your investment. When other teams are running your high AAV players; and the matthews, the nylanders, the marners and the JTs are not known for dropping the gloves and stand up for themselves then you need someone else to stand up for them.

I absolutely hated that Freddy was run 3 times by boston and there was absolutely no response from the Leafs, except Marincin who put Backes in a headlock and wrestled him to the ice.

Freddy has to be protected for the Leafs to have any kind of chance; Leafs' defensive play (mostly due to players' effort) isn't as great where they can play with Hutch in net. Without Freddy this team is useless.

This team needs some toughness and grit.

It would also help if Matthews, Marner, Nylander can put up some muscle mass. Martin St Louis was 5'8 but the guy was freakin' cut and it wasn't easy to take puck from him on the boards.

 

[ToMaLe]

At least things aren’t this bad , are they ?
View attachment 270267

Lmfao!

 

[Leafs87]

I think they’re going through a rough patch and, I’d rather it be now than the playoffs or leading up to the playoffs.

 

[dimi78]

I actually do think things are very concerning. I don't care for the sample size argument here (which others have said stretches back into last season). The team is lacking real passion in their play at present.

Getting roughed up. No response.

Dubas needs to get on the phone because the makeup of the team is built for international hockey not NHL.

First once upon time when toughness and responding to it was NHL hockey it was the guys who got roughed up that did the responding than things changed and every hit started nonsense & goonry which is why you have the Instigator rule in place.

So who exactly is playing international hockey on the Leafs? If your being honest it begins with Matthews and ends with Marner.... because it's not the rest of the roster who've not bought in to put compete before skill.

 

[PromisedLand]

I find it hilarious that the so called stat folks keep posting stats without context all the time and sit on the high horse but are not using the same stats to evaluate the team thus far

Maple Leafs PDO since we drafted Matthews

Eastern Conference PDO thus far for this season

Leafs have never had a PDO less than 1 in a full 82 game season since we drafted Matthews

This season our PDO has been less than 1 thus far. Our sh% is a bit less than last 2 seasons but our sv% is worst than even our tank season (2015-2016) where we had team sv% of .919

I really lose respect for the posters who keep on posting on stats (without context) all the time; but for the on ice results of this season because they want to praise dubas and fire babcock they very conveniently forget to bring in the stats.

It's a selective narrative with some posters. PDO will eventually get closer to 1 (and for the Leafs will be above one) based on historical evidence since we drafted Matthews. It's only a matter of time!

 

[PromisedLand]

McAvoy hit Marner in the first minute of the game that Hyman got the two game suspension for hitting...... McAvoy .....

Chara punched JT; when JT was not even looking but nothing came of it.

I still remeber the playoff series against boston in 2017-2018 season where Gardiner got a penalty for getting punched by Chara



They called Gardiner for roughing there and Chara got nothing.

Thats the kind of reffing that Leafs have to endure against Bruins all the time

 

[PromisedLand]

Crosby is a rare breed.... Most elite level players it takes loosing for them to understand that it takes putting compete before your skill of the entire group for a team to contend for a championship.

Gretzky and the mighty Oilers suffered playoff failors before they became a dynasty with the ever famous moment when they past the NYI dressing room that made it click for them for what it takes.

Brett Hull 86 goal season was in large done by playing loosing hockey kind of with how Matthews trends to play like. It wasn't until Hitchcock got his hands on him and the desire to win over took the desire to score goals when he started playing winning hockey.

Yzerman Bowman was about to trade him if he didn't change how he played and put compete before scoring goals.

There's plenty more examples. It's Unfortunate but worth going through some loosing right now. It's the loosing that will change the top end of the roster to get into playing winning hockey.

This!

 

[HellasLEAF]

First once upon time when toughness and responding to it was NHL hockey it was the guys who got roughed up that did the responding than things changed and every hit started nonsense & goonry which is why you have the Instigator rule in place.

So who exactly is playing international hockey on the Leafs? If your being honest it begins with Matthews and ends with Marner.... because it's not the rest of the roster who've not bought in to put compete before skill.

I'm not even talking about fighting. How about next shift you go out and hit somebody. Get the bench fired up, get players going. We need more of an edge. Lot's of teams have speed and skill. It's important but may not be the difference in winning tight hockey games.

We routinely don't fair well against more physical teams. Why is that.

Could be the core needs to be able to grow proper bears before they start really dominating and we must be patient. But is something very much lacking and is there reason for concern right now? Yes imo.

 

[dimi78]

Chara punched JT; when JT was not even looking but nothing came of it.

I still remeber the playoff series against boston in 2017-2018 season where Gardiner got a penalty for getting punched by Chara



They called Gardiner for roughing there and Chara got nothing.

Thats the kind of reffing that Leafs have to endure against Bruins all the time

Both series was some of the worst one sided officiating in the history of the game but that's not why they lost. The Leafs beat themselves because the top guys refuse to compete first look to score goals 2nd. When the Leafs top guys lead the way in working hard it takes the oppositions goaltender to be the first, 2nd and 3rd star of the game to beat them and that's what's so damn frustrating with this group... It's also why they don't draw many penalties.

 

[PromisedLand]

Both series was some of the worst one sided officiating in the history of the game but that's not why they lost. The Leafs beat themselves because the top guys refuse to compete first look to score goals 2nd. When the Leafs top guys lead the way in working hard it takes the oppositions goaltender to be the first, 2nd and 3rd star of the game to beat them and that's what's so damn frustrating with this group... It's also why they don't draw many penalties.

But thats the thing though. The highly paid stars should be self motivated. They are getting paid a lot of money to compete. I do not have patience for the players that make a lot of money and require "motivation" every freakin' game. I mean come on; are you serious?

If they are after personal milestones and not team success regardless of if it is Babcock or other coach this team will never have success.

 

[dimi78]

I'm not even talking about fighting. How about next shift you go out and hit somebody. Get the bench fired up, get players going. We need more of an edge. Lot's of teams have speed and skill. It's important but may not be the difference in winning tight hockey games.

We routinely don't fair well against more physical teams. Why is that.

Could be the core needs to be able to grow proper bears before they start really dominating and we must be patient. But is something very much lacking and is there reason for concern right now? Yes imo.

No we don't fair well against any team that out works the team and it's routinely the top guys who go MIA when it's the cause. When the top guys are competing the Leafs are a tough team to beat but we have tunnel vision on this forum and follow this BS toughness and physicality talk that flat out isn't true.

 

[dimi78]

But thats the thing though. The highly paid stars should be self motivated. They are getting paid a lot of money to compete. I do not have patience for the players that make a lot of money and require "motivation" every freakin' game. I mean come on; are you serious?

If they are after personal milestones and not team success regardless of if it is Babcock or other coach this team will never have success.

Not blaming Babcock. In fact he's the best coach to go through these types of growing pains. Trust me this isn't the first young elite level core that has to go through loosing to learn what "COMPETE" is. Now is the where development of becoming a winner is starting.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

I find it hilarious that the so called stat folks keep posting stats without context all the time and sit on the high horse but are not using the same stats to evaluate the team thus far

Maple Leafs PDO since we drafted Matthews

Eastern Conference PDO thus far for this season

Leafs have never had a PDO less than 1 in a full 82 game season since we drafted Matthews

This season our PDO has been less than 1 thus far. Our sh% is a bit less than last 2 seasons but our sv% is worst than even our tank season (2015-2016) where we had team sv% of .919

I really lose respect for the posters who keep on posting on stats (without context) all the time; but for the on ice results of this season because they want to praise dubas and fire babcock they very conveniently forget to bring in the stats.

It's a selective narrative with some posters. PDO will eventually get closer to 1 (and for the Leafs will be above one) based on historical evidence since we drafted Matthews. It's only a matter of time!

I don't think any stats or logical person on here would disagree with you. You're spot on.

The Leafs have been unlucky, plain and simple. The PDO and on-ice stats back that up clear as day. Leaf fans just have to be patient, but you've seen how impatient these people are lol.

 

[IPS]

Chara punched JT; when JT was not even looking but nothing came of it.

I still remeber the playoff series against boston in 2017-2018 season where Gardiner got a penalty for getting punched by Chara



They called Gardiner for roughing there and Chara got nothing.

Thats the kind of reffing that Leafs have to endure against Bruins all the time

It's times like those why I wonder why I even bother watching...

Out of the last 2 years, that game right there was the most mindblowing officiating I've ever seen. We got 6 consecutive penalties against us when we went up 4-1.

I have never witnessed such a blatant attempt to manage a game in all my years of watching hockey. All while we were getting those penalties (which involved a lot of chintzy calls) the Bruins were running Freddy, cheapshotting our players after every whistle (that one you linked was only one of many) and getting away with pretty much everything possible.

I watch shit like that and wonder why I invest any of my time cheering for the Leafs.

 

[PromisedLand]

It's times like those why I wonder why I even bother watching...

Out of the last 2 years, that game right there was the most mindblowing officiating I've ever seen. We got 6 consecutive penalties against us when we went up 4-1.

I have never witnessed such a blatant attempt to manage a game in all my years of watching hockey. All while we were getting those penalties (which involved a lot of chintzy calls) the Bruins were running Freddy, cheapshotting our players after every whistle (that one you linked was only one of many) and getting away with pretty much everything possible.

I watch **** like that and wonder why I invest any of my time cheering for the Leafs.

This is where Leafs management that puts in a lot of moolah into the League wide fund have to raise their voice. All we want is "fair" officiating and "parity".

It is amazing that last season it took Dermott's busted nose; Kadri being kneed and then suspended; with JT being punched in a scrum (blindsided) for the league to take action and ban the officials from further playoff games.

Leafs lost a key player (Kadri); key game and momentum after we had taken a 1-0 lead in Boston.

Shanny needs to get off his rocker and speak his mind. No more unfair officiating against the Leafs

 

[IPS]

This is where Leafs management that puts in a lot of moolah into the League wide fund have to raise their voice. All we want is "fair" officiating and "parity".

It is amazing that last season it took Dermott's busted nose; Kadri being kneed and then suspended; with JT being punched in a scrum (blindsided) for the league to take action and ban the officials from further playoff games.

Leafs lost a key player (Kadri); key game and momentum after we had taken a 1-0 lead in Boston.

Shanny needs to get off his rocker and speak his mind. No more unfair officiating against the Leafs

Sure would be nice but I don't expect any of those turds in management to risk any money out of their own pocket to call out a blatant injustice.

If we meet the Bruins again in round 1 this year I might just forego watching it altogether. We already know how it's going to go. Bruins are gonna take non-stop runs at us every chance they get and if we offer 1 ounce of retaliation it's us going to the box. Meanwhile they get to have Marchand running around licking and cheapshotting our players and that ogre Chara running around punching our star players in the back of the head and of course the officiating will look the other way every time.

Jeremy Jacobs calls the shots when all is said and done. If he wants "good rough playoff hockey" that's what he's going to get.

Honestly I'd love for the Leafs to have some grit of their own to counter it, but all it's going to do his put us in the penalty box even more and give that deadly Bruins PP even more opportunities to put us away even earlier in the series.

 

[Community]

No I think he's pointing to the record...which is a negative...no reason in the world we should be mired with Montreal Tampa Boston and Buffalo (Tampa and Boston yes) the res tof them shouldn't even be close to us realistically...yet here we are

The guy I quoted made no reference at all to our total points so that isn't true.

All I was saying is that the poster I quoted (and many others) have been trying to spin even our good stats and games to look bad which is why I don't think we are as bad as a lot of posters are making us out to be.

We need to be better, but we aren't as bad as some think.

 

[HellasLEAF]

No we don't fair well against any team that out works the team and it's routinely the top guys who go MIA when it's the cause. When the top guys are competing the Leafs are a tough team to beat but we have tunnel vision on this forum and follow this BS toughness and physicality talk that flat out isn't true.

I would equate what I'm saying to physicality. Winning more battles/races. Being strong, wanting it more.

But I still would like to see more of a response when things aren't going well, or when our top players get run yes. I think that sticking up for teammates breeds winning hockey but to each their own.

 

[Captain Crunch]

It sure feels that way I've had to distance myself from hockey after every loss because I'm just so frustrated

I’m having the exact same problem. They are way too soft. Would love to see them play with an edge.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

I would equate what I'm saying to physicality. Winning more battles/races. Being strong, wanting it more.

But I still would like to see more of a response when things aren't going well, or when our top players get run yes. I think that sticking up for teammates breeds winning hockey but to each their own.

I’m having the exact same problem. They are way too soft. Would love to see them play with an edge.

I was most disappointed in Muzzin and Rielly.

Both of them were on the ice right in front of Matthews when he got hit in the head. Both of them did nothing. The leaders on the team, especially the heavier/tougher ones, should be setting an example.

IMO guys like Marner/Nylander/Johnsson/Moore/Barrie do not need to add grit to their skilled game (I wouldn't ask Gaudreau, P.Kane, M.Johanssen, etc to add grit to their game).

But guys like Rielly, Muzzin, Kapanen, Shore, Holl, Ceci should be defending our players. No reason not to, unless Babcock is telling them not to. We're not in the locker-rooms or on the benches, so we don't know what's going on, but I would certainly hope Rielly/Muzzin lead by example next time.

 

[Cpt Maple Leaf]

The sky is not falling. Are we where we want to be? Nope. Is there a lot of hockey left? Yep. Give it some time here folks, we aren't even healthy right now.

 

[Coachcorner]

Just that one thug under God thang is.
We need that one sucka fool who gets everybody energized and going. He just has to talk, walk, hit twerk and do thangs and move thangs. Every great team needs that one sucka. Getting hyman back is great but not enough. He ain't no thug. He a treal worker though, I mean a real twerker.

But yeah, getting that one ultra physical guy would do it. We have too many dolls "playing" the "game". Just wait and see when the playoffs begin............ again.

 

[GardinerTheForward]

I think we f***in suck!

 

[meefer]

While I won't rehash my initial thoughts, the one thing I'd like to add is that if the Leafs competed as desperately as you folks do in presenting your points of view, the team would be a lot more fun to watch...and probably a lot more successful. Cheers.