Are Leaf fans prepared to do a proper rebuild?

[theIceWookie]

This. You may just be my new personal hero. Well done sir.

Haha thanks good sir! Glad I'm not the only one!

 

[firstemperor]

This type of sensationalism is so typical in Leaf fans, and generally shows a collectivism of stupidity. It's been a driving force behind our failure to do anything. Why you may ask? The pressure of the mostly ignorant fan bas has driven many a general manager, coach and board of this team to make moronic moves that have drastically hurt us.

JFJ is a perfect example. The guy was not a trading GM, he was a drafting GM. He came from a drafting background and even now after what many would call a failure of epic proportions (and it largely was), he's still employed as a scout in the NHL. Why? Because he's damn good at it. Kulemin, Frattin, Gunnarson were his late round strikes. Rask was one of his first round hits. But he wasn't able to work to that strength, because he faced pressure from ownership to make moves to make the playoffs. Onwership was hearing this pressure from the fans. And so we were given one of the worst GM tenures in Leaf history.

Other great examples? Look at how many players were run out of town because they weren't good enough. Then they go to another team, do well because they were given a shot, and the Leafs were on the outside looking in.

Wait, I didn't realize only being effective in the draft was the sole qualification of being a NHL-calibre GM. Nor did I realize that fans were the driving force behind some "figure head" GM that just did our bidding. Yet the acclaim you provide to JFJ's sole expertise is littered with a guy named Jiri Tlusty, his highest draft pick in his tenure, check out the guys drafted after him- one of those guys is named Claude Giroux.

Not only did he fail there, but he failed even under your completely speculative and hypothetical "owner mandate". Let's suppose for a second he even had this mandate, he certainly failed there to as he didn't take his team to a single playoff round, even as the 8th seed, in his entire tenure here.

 

[Crispy Crust]

Haha thanks good sir! Glad I'm not the only one!

Kessel is 35

Just teasing you bro.

 

[summerstorm]

Does it matter? If your taking over a business, do you just wipe everyone's slate clean like nothing before happened? We're talking about a one billion dollar entity here. Open your eyes and gain some perspective.

my eyes are wide open...they bought the team...and I'm sure they did more than just kick the tires...they have lost zero...should they care about the previous owner says...or investigate themselves???...this is not going to go well for the Leafs going forward....just my .02

 

[InterceptSchenn]

Nope. quick fix of 2 years.

 

[firstemperor]

my eyes are wide open...they bought the team...and I'm sure they did more than just kick the tires...they have lost zero...should they care about the previous owner says...or investigate themselves???...this is not going to go well for the Leafs going forward....just my .02

What does it matter what the previous owner said? They invested in a billion dollar entity, Burke has been here for 4 years. They don't need to not be owners to judge Burke for his tenure. As Burke stated himself, he had he got results, he wouldn't get fired. So the question remains, you bring up the owners having zero years with Burke like it's even relevant as a point to salvaging his job. It's perplexing.

 

[The Apologist]

Oh no, Here comes the hyperbole from the Anti BUrke crowd.

I have come to understand that these people believe the only way to rebuild is to get 3-4 top 3 picks in close proximity. And they are generally too young to remember the "facts" they use in an argument.

The proper rebuild involves bordering on bankruptcy and threatening to move to St Louis or Hamilton. Get on it MLSE

 

[summerstorm]

What does it matter what the previous owner said? They invested in a billion dollar entity, Burke has been here for 4 years. They don't need to not be owners to judge Burke for his tenure. As Burke stated himself, he had he got results, he wouldn't get fired. So the question remains, you bring up the owners having zero years with Burke like it's even relevant as a point to salvaging his job. It's perplexing.

only to you friend...

 

[SenorDingDong]

This type of sensationalism is so typical in Leaf fans, and generally shows a collectivism of stupidity. It's been a driving force behind our failure to do anything. Why you may ask? The pressure of the mostly ignorant fan bas has driven many a general manager, coach and board of this team to make moronic moves that have drastically hurt us.

JFJ is a perfect example. The guy was not a trading GM, he was a drafting GM. He came from a drafting background and even now after what many would call a failure of epic proportions (and it largely was), he's still employed as a scout in the NHL. Why? Because he's damn good at it. Kulemin, Frattin, Gunnarson were his late round strikes. Rask was one of his first round hits. But he wasn't able to work to that strength, because he faced pressure from ownership to make moves to make the playoffs. Onwership was hearing this pressure from the fans. And so we were given one of the worst GM tenures in Leaf history.

Other great examples? Look at how many players were run out of town because they weren't good enough. Then they go to another team, do well because they were given a shot, and the Leafs were on the outside looking in.

This brings me to the idea of a "proper rebuild". This is a pie in the sky fallacy. It's false. It's not true. There is no "proper" way to rebuild a team. There never will be. Pittsburgh, Washington, Chicago, LA went through years and years of last place finishes to get the star players that helped them be succesful. Want to know what they don't tell you about those years? They came with busts too. Chicago had Ruttu do nothing for them and Cam Barker totally bust (at 3rd overall no less), Pittsburgh had Whitney do the same. And then there is Atlanta (now Winnipeg), Columbus, Florida, Phoenix, the Islanders. Teams that went through the "proper rebuild" and it did jack for them, leaving them no better then they were before.

Teams win in a variety of ways. They trade for it, they have late round picks play successfully, they sign players in Free Agency. Sow me a cup winner, and I'll give you a completely different story of how their success came about.

The common argument for a proper rebuild is that you need your own first round picks to win. Well let me show you Boston, the team we grabbed Phil Kessel from. When they won the cup, they had Seguin and Hamill on their teams as first rounders. Two players who did very little to help them win. In fact many people actually talk about how trading two of their most prolific first rounders, Joe Thornton and Phil Kessel, led to them winning that cup. Getting the cap space for Chara, and the ability to trade for Horton (a reclamation project for those that claim those things don't work) directly led to them winning a cup.

So why would we need a "proper rebuild" when we have a collection of young talented players already.

Kessel is 35, JVR is 23, Gardiner is 22, Phanuef is 27, Lupul is 29, Grabovski is 28. This is a young talented core. Four of these players are top 10 players picked within the last ten or eleven years and have all shown significant potential.

Why in the world would we need to start over? We clearly still have needs, but doing a rebuild that means trading them is moronic. This team is a good goaltender away from being a playoff team, and a top line center away from being a big threat. And still with a core that is all under 30. Plus blue chip prospects in Kadri (yes he's still a blue chipper) and Rielly?

Toronto does not need to do a "proper rebuild". They are well on their way.

Most educated post ive seen on these boards in some time. well done.

 

[The Apologist]

What does it matter what the previous owner said? They invested in a billion dollar entity, Burke has been here for 4 years. They don't need to not be owners to judge Burke for his tenure. As Burke stated himself, he had he got results, he wouldn't get fired. So the question remains, you bring up the owners having zero years with Burke like it's even relevant as a point to salvaging his job. It's perplexing.

Its not relevant. What is relevant is his last line, which I tend to agree with. Things about to get really ugly here.

 

[firstemperor]

Most educated post ive seen on these boards in some time. well done.

The bottom half of his post is well done. The team doesn't need a rebuild, he's right. A cup team can be built from the current situation without being a perennial bottom-feeder. It's his entire rant about JFJ that just spews ignorance rather than intellect.

 

[Leafs For Life*]

Most educated post ive seen on these boards in some time. well done.

Except for saying Phoenix's rebuild did jack as they got to conference, and Kessel being 35, I agree.

 

[The Apologist]

The bottom half of his post is well done. The team doesn't need a rebuild, he's right. A cup team can be built from the current situation without being a perennial bottom-feeder. It's his entire rant about JFJ that just spews ignorance rather than intellect.

His JFJ rant was bang on.... I believe JFJ would have and could have built a great team here.

 

[The Apologist]

Except for saying Phoenix's rebuild did jack as they got to conference, and Kessel being 35, I agree.

Kessel's not 35?

 

[Hero]

Yes.

But not willing to tank.

 

[Winreims]

With this team's luck, and the way in which the franchise is run, we could try to rebuild the team "properly" (whatever that means/I'm assuming the "EDM" way...) and still fail. Look at the Islanders and Panthers. How many years did they finish at the bottom, and look how they turned out.

I don't think this city could take a full blown Edmonton style rebuild. Had we made the playoffs a few times since 2004, maybe.

 

[firstemperor]

His JFJ rant was bang on.... I believe JFJ would have and could have built a great team here.

It pains me to see a fellow leaf fan write that. JFJ destroyed and gutted this team but he still has his apologists. It's like leaf fans are content with mediocrity, but more in this case anyways, content with failure.

 

[The Apologist]

It pains me to see a fellow leaf fan write that. JFJ destroyed and gutted this team but he still has his apologists. It's like leaf fans are content with mediocrity, but more in this case anyways, content with failure.

It pains me to see another Leaf fan pretending that ownership meddling has no effect on the GM.

JFJ did do a terrible job for the same reason were about to witness again. A few playoff dollars are more important than being successful in the long run.

Count on it.

 

[Winreims]

I think the thing with JFJ is that people realize the immense pressure that was put on him to create a winning team "NOW". It was at an entirely different level than what Burke faced. Maybe at a higher level than any GM faced here since Gord Stellick was GM in the late eighties. JFJ was a successful scout with the Blues before joining the Leafs, and I do think if given the GM chance with a smaller market team - he might do well.

 

[firstemperor]

It pains me to see another Leaf pretending that ownership meddling has no effect on the GM.

JFJ did do a terrible job for the same reason were about to witness again. A few playoff dollars are more important than being successful in the long run.

Count on it.

Except the owner meddling is speculative. And I am not convinced the owners made JFJ trade for Raycroft or Toskala either. Let's suppose the owners gave him a "8th place at the very least" mandate, it's not like JFJ satisfied that either. He's even failed under this hypothetical mandate being suggested, so again, I pose the question why one is content with failure.

 

[The Apologist]

Except the owner meddling is speculative. And I am not convinced the owners made JFJ trade for Raycroft or Toskala either. Let's suppose the owners gave him a "8th place at the very least" mandate, it's not like JFJ satisfied that either. He's even failed under this hypothetical mandate being suggested, so again, I pose the question why one is content with failure.

He tried to bandaid this team year after year. Absolutely he failed to meet their mandate, which is why they fired him. The problem was that this team was not ready for that mandate.

And stop throwing around the ******** content comment. Trust me, content is not a word I would use to describe my opinion of MLSE or ownership yesmen like yourself

 

[charliolemieux]

The proper rebuild involves bordering on bankruptcy and threatening to move to St Louis or Hamilton. Get on it MLSE

Yes quite! Let's threaten to move to MIlwaukee shall we?

 

[The Apologist]

I think the thing with JFJ is that people realize the immense pressure that was put on him to create a winning team "NOW". It was at an entirely different level than what Burke faced. Maybe at a higher level than any GM faced here since Gord Stellick was GM in the late eighties. JFJ was a successful scout with the Blues before joining the Leafs, and I do think if given the GM chance with a smaller market team - he might do well.

This exactly. When he was hired, it seemed like the perfect guy to start the much needed rebuild. Instead he started right away with the typical MLSE crap, contrary to his own strengths and abilities.

 

[The Apologist]

Yes quite! Let's threaten to move to MIlwaukee shall we?

I'm in.... Bankruptcy here we come!

 

[theIceWookie]

Kessel's not 35?

Haha totally didn't even realize I did this lol.