Are Leaf fans prepared to do a proper rebuild?

[egd27]

It pains me to see another Leaf fan pretending that ownership meddling has no effect on the GM.

JFJ did do a terrible job for the same reason were about to witness again. A few playoff dollars are more important than being successful in the long run.

Count on it.

The same people that couldn't see a bigger picture in the past, still can't see it moving forward.

They probably never will.

 

[kihei]

Well, it sure wouldn't start with trading assets for Luongo, so I guess whether Nonis goes after him is the giveaway. I'm guessing the suits will be impatient. So we will be back to the same old same old.

 

[theIceWookie]

Most educated post ive seen on these boards in some time. well done.

Thanks good sir (or Madam if you're female )

The bottom half of his post is well done. The team doesn't need a rebuild, he's right. A cup team can be built from the current situation without being a perennial bottom-feeder. It's his entire rant about JFJ that just spews ignorance rather than intellect.

Not an apologist. JFJ was terrible. But a lot of his terribleness was the direct result of an ownership group that put pressure on him. He was young (for the position) and he was not in any way a good trading GM. Not every GM is a well rounded manager in everything. Burke was terrible at UFA deals. It's rare to find a GM that is good or great at everything. JFJ was not a good choice for GM, but had he been given time and the opportunity to build the team through a draft, its possible he would have come off with a better legacy than he currently has.

And Giroux is hardly the best example. For one, every GM makes mistakes. Look at Holland. The amount of first round busts he has is enormous. One mistake is hardly enough to say he is a bad scout. Number two, JFJ had only 4 drafts at the helm of the Leafs. 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007. Only two first rounders in there. At a 50 percent hit rate with a 13th overall and 21st overall? It's hardly the worst first round percentage. Stralman, Frattin, Stalberg, Reimer, and potentially Komarov and Holzer are other late round successes. You have to remember it's rare to fin two players after the first round that are successful NHLers. With limited picks, he did at least a decent job.

Anyways I digress. I never said JFJ wasn't bad. His trading was horrendous and his signings weren't much better. But I still maintain that those were at least in part a snowball effect of pressure from upper management (Raycroft/Rask) and the inability for him to build his own team (why the hell he wasn't allowed to have a bigger front office made no sense to anyone).

Except for saying Phoenix's rebuild did jack as they got to conference, and Kessel being 35, I agree.

Their success was largely the result of reclamation projects and smart coaching. Their best players were Whitney (UFA), Doan (holdover from Winnipeg), Vrbata (UFA signing), Smith (UFA), Yandle (4th round pick). Less of a "proper rebuild" was my main point and more of an all avenues available type rebuild.

Maybe Jack was a little bit of an exaggeration but they were more to demonstrate a team that didn't just just first round picks to be successful.

 

[charliolemieux]

Their success was largely the result of reclamation projects and smart coaching. Their best players were Whitney (UFA), Doan (holdover from Winnipeg), Vrbata (UFA signing), Smith (UFA), Yandle (4th round pick). Less of a "proper rebuild" was my main point and more of an all avenues available type rebuild.

Maybe Jack was a little bit of an exaggeration but they were more to demonstrate a team that didn't just just first round picks to be successful.

PHX's handful of top picks have done nothign for them.

And they finished cole tothe bottom long enough thaty according to some poel on here they should have an all-star lineup.

Can't help it if your #3 and #5 overall picks are Turris and Wheeler. NEither one they still have.

 

[firstemperor]

Thanks good sir (or Madam if you're female )



Not an apologist. JFJ was terrible. But a lot of his terribleness was the direct result of an ownership group that put pressure on him. He was young (for the position) and he was not in any way a good trading GM. Not every GM is a well rounded manager in everything. Burke was terrible at UFA deals. It's rare to find a GM that is good or great at everything. JFJ was not a good choice for GM, but had he been given time and the opportunity to build the team through a draft, its possible he would have come off with a better legacy than he currently has.

And Giroux is hardly the best example. For one, every GM makes mistakes. Look at Holland. The amount of first round busts he has is enormous. One mistake is hardly enough to say he is a bad scout. Number two, JFJ had only 4 drafts at the helm of the Leafs. 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007. Only two first rounders in there. At a 50 percent hit rate with a 13th overall and 21st overall? It's hardly the worst first round percentage. Stralman, Frattin, Stalberg, Reimer, and potentially Komarov and Holzer are other late round successes. You have to remember it's rare to fin two players after the first round that are successful NHLers. With limited picks, he did at least a decent job.

Anyways I digress. I never said JFJ wasn't bad. His trading was horrendous and his signings weren't much better. But I still maintain that those were at least in part a snowball effect of pressure from upper management (Raycroft/Rask) and the inability for him to build his own team (why the hell he wasn't allowed to have a bigger front office made no sense to anyone).

It sounds better now because the entire premise of your initial post (the first half, anyways) seems to suggest you were denying the fact that Ferguson failed in every sense of the word- even under the supposed "mandate" owner set upon him. I mean, let's say he was even under this supposed mandate, I'm not sure the owners said he had to trade for Raycroft and Toaskala either.

As for "well-rounded GM's". I'd argue there are many examples- forget just Hockey, obviously no one is perfect but JFJ and Burke weren't anywhere near average, I'd argue, in their leafs tenure at least (although admittedly, JFJ was much much worst). And by "average" I mean they actually hurt the team a lot more than they helped. Now your argument may refer back to some hypothetical "mandate" again- but even under those pretenses, they would still fail- given that they didn't make the playoffs (8th seed).

Giroux isn't the best example, sure, I was merely suggesting that your exaggeration of JFJ's drafting expertise is misinformed. He picked Tlusty with his highest pick here. No one is perfect but if your talking about impact moves, high draft picks and trades for impact type players, etc. are the ones that are ultimately going to change the directionality of your franchise, and in that sense, Ferguson didn't accomplish much in his tenure here.

 

[Mr Knies Guy]

For one, I'm in it for the long haul. I've got the Jays to look forward to, I don't NEED the Leafs in the playoffs if the cost is Luongo's contract and missing out on a potentially franchise altering piece in the draft.

 

[My Sweet Shadow]

I've been waiting for a "proper rebuild" since about 2006. As long as we do it right and don't commit half-heartedly, then I'm fine with staying at the bottom of the league for a couple more years if it gives us a shot at long-term success.

 

[firstemperor]

He tried to bandaid this team year after year. Absolutely he failed to meet their mandate, which is why they fired him. The problem was that this team was not ready for that mandate.

And stop throwing around the ******** content comment. Trust me, content is not a word I would use to describe my opinion of MLSE or ownership yesmen like yourself

Thanks for the generalization there again. I've never been happy with MLSE since Peddie. Rogers and Bell aren't the OTPP though.

And 4 years of failure is inexcusable, regardless of ownership, given that Burke's entire tenure was marred by full autonomy in hockey operations. So yea, dismissing 1 bad GM, and 1 terrible GM (JFJ) as being worthy of being fired sure equates to being an "ownership yes man".

I'm sure if we retained them both and let them put this team in the crapper anymore, I'd be an ownership "yes man" for not wanting them dismissed either. Great logic you have there.

 

[charliolemieux]

I've been waiting for a "proper rebuild" since about 2006. As long as we do it right and don't commit half-heartedly, then I'm fine with staying at the bottom of the league for a couple more years if it gives us a shot at long-term success.

I was full tank nation and sell the Muskoka 5 around 2006-07.

We got screwed. Screwed by Mats and the Muskoka 5 and by MLSE ownership.

If things had gone according to plan there would have been no need to even bring Burke in here to Fix everything.

In a perfect world the franchise would have had the best goalie under 22yrs old in the world and a cupboard full of 1st round picks thanks to dealing the Muskoka 5. Burke would have stayed in ANH while JFJ led this team to the promise land.

 

[Tak7]

If Leafs fans know that they are in a rebuild, they will accept it.

The excitement of the idea of getting high quality, high potential young players to add to a youthful core that already includes Gardiner and Reilly, is promising enough to get the fans to buy into it in a very similar way that the Edmonton Oilers fans have bought into what they are doing.

 

[charliolemieux]

If Leafs fans know that they are in a rebuild, they will accept it. The excitement of the idea of getting high quality, high potential young players to add to a youthful core that already includes Gardiner and Reilly, is promising enough to get the fans to buy into it in a very similar way that the Edmonton Oilers fans have bought into what they are doing.

Do you need an invitation???


Hello........ rebuild since before Sundin retired.

 

[4evaBlue]

This exactly. When he was hired, it seemed like the perfect guy to start the much needed rebuild. Instead he started right away with the typical MLSE crap, contrary to his own strengths and abilities.

If MLSE wanted to tank, they wouldn't have hired Burke at $3M to do it. Pretty sure most armchair GMs around here could have managed that.

 

[DD03]

Do you need an invitation???


Hello........ rebuild since before Sundin retired.

What are you talking about?? When Burke traded for Phil it means we weren't rebuilding! Even though Phil was only 22. But still

 

[charliolemieux]

What are you talking about?? When Burke traded for Phil it means we weren't rebuilding! Even though Phil was only 22. But still

Who rebuilds with a 22yr old 35G scorer?

 

[DD03]

Who rebuilds with a 22yr old 35G scorer?

Just doesn't make sense.. I know you're getting old Charlio. But I'm sure you can but this one together

 

[The Apologist]

If Leafs fans know that they are in a rebuild, they will accept it.

The excitement of the idea of getting high quality, high potential young players to add to a youthful core that already includes Gardiner and Reilly, is promising enough to get the fans to buy into it in a very similar way that the Edmonton Oilers fans have bought into what they are doing.

Here yes, but don't confuse hfboards for reality.

 

[The Apologist]

If MLSE wanted to tank, they wouldn't have hired Burke at $3M to do it. Pretty sure most armchair GMs around here could have managed that.

We were referring to JFJ

 

[The Apologist]

Just doesn't make sense.. I know you're getting old Charlio. But I'm sure you can but this one together

It's fairly obvious it was win now when you trade picks for such a seasoned vet. Trading Beach for Gardiner, versteeg for picks, Lebda for Franson, day old donuts for Phaneuf, Kabs for Colborne plus are also obvious win now moves. You just don't add young talent like that if you're rebuilding.

 

[Parksy]

I was ready for a rebuild 5 years ago. Its a weird feeling secretly cheering for your team to lose for them to get a higher draft pick. As long as they play hard, thats all I care. Keep reims in the net and see what he can do.

 

[Joey Hoser]

MacKinnon and McDavid would be some nice pieces to build a franchise around.

The sad thing is these two kids will probably be better than any player we currently have on our team.

Odds are we wouldn't get either of them even if the Leafs did everything they could to get them.

 

[darrylsittler27]

What do I mean by proper rebuild?

The core of a rebuild includes 5 major players.A star center,a number one defenseman,a number one goalie,a power forward(aka Lucic) and a rugged stay at home Dman.Of which, Gardiner and Reilly are the only one we have.Burke continually plugged holes with players not suitable for their role.Kessel as the cornerstone,Bozak,Phaneuff and Reimer.In short, this team was not built properly.He simply continually turned over players to cover up that fact.If he ever had a plan he never stated it,nor does anyone know what it was.Smoke and mirrors.

One cannot overlook the fact that last year may have been the greatest collapse in history,showing a lack of character and leadership,yet alone grit.Something Burke had promised from the outset.In the Beauchmin trade Burke had tried to get Shultz in a contract eating trade(Lupul was a big question mark),something he could not have done if it wasn't for Leaf pursestrings.In other words he got lucky by mistake.If we remove that one trade his trade record was not that great.See Kubina,Versteeg,Kessel.He also stubbornly held onto Wilson when anyone could see the team had quit on him long ago.

What the Leafs need to do is stop trading young players for vets and helping other teams with their problem players.Something that has backfired time after time.Kurvers for Niedermayer,Clark for Luongo,Courtnall for Kordic,Rask for Raycroft,Nolan for Boyes and a first,Kessel for Seguin and Hamilton and next Luongo(Vancouver's problem).If Burke had done nothing but draft what his scouts told him to,this team would be better longterm.He addressed only one need(number one dman) in four years here and this bountiful prospect pool he had has only one impact player(Reilly).I think we need another year of high drafting and trying to sign free agents of merit.Trading for Luongo will not only alter that course but may cost more valuable assets,helping Vancouver more than it does us,in the long run.I am suggesting we bite the bullet this year in a strong draft and go after free agents next summer instead of trading for Luongo who would improve us but not guarantee the playoffs.Thus the mediocrity will continue unless we change that style(shortcuts).

 

[Morbo]

I wouldn't look for them to blow everything up and start over. Rogers and TSN want to start showing playoff games ASAP. Nonis will trade for Luongo and try again to rebuild the team by adding key free agents on top of what we have now.

Many on here won't like it, but with media companies owning the Leafs there is no appetite to finish last for the next 5 years. These guys bought the golden goose and they want their eggs.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

The core of a rebuild includes 5 major players.A star center,a number one defenseman,a number one goalie,a power forward(aka Lucic) and a rugged stay at home Dman.Of which, Gardiner and Reilly are the only one we have.Burke continually plugged holes with players not suitable for their role.Kessel as the cornerstone,Bozak,Phaneuff and Reimer.In short, this team was not built properly.He simply continually turned over players to cover up that fact.If he ever had a plan he never stated it,nor does anyone know what it was.Smoke and mirrors.

One cannot overlook the fact that last year may have been the greatest collapse in history,showing a lack of character and leadership,yet alone grit.Something Burke had promised from the outset.In the Beauchmin trade Burke had tried to get Shultz in a contract eating trade(Lupul was a big question mark),something he could not have done if it wasn't for Leaf pursestrings.In other words he got lucky by mistake.If we remove that one trade his trade record was not that great.See Kubina,Versteeg,Kessel.He also stubbornly held onto Wilson when anyone could see the team had quit on him long ago.

What the Leafs need to do is stop trading young players for vets and helping other teams with their problem players.Something that has backfired time after time.Kurvers for Niedermayer,Clark for Luongo,Courtnall for Kordic,Rask for Raycroft,Nolan for Boyes and a first,Kessel for Seguin and Hamilton and next Luongo(Vancouver's problem).If Burke had done nothing but draft what his scouts told him to,this team would be better longterm.He addressed only one need(number one dman) in four years here and this bountiful prospect pool he had has only one impact player(Reilly).I think we need another year of high drafting and trying to sign free agents of merit.Trading for Luongo will not only alter that course but may cost more valuable assets,helping Vancouver more than it does us,in the long run.I am suggesting we bite the bullet this year in a strong draft and go after free agents next summer instead of trading for Luongo who would improve us but not guarantee the playoffs.Thus the mediocrity will continue unless we change that style(shortcuts).

Guy lands 3 All Stars plus multiple other young pieces without surrendering any top prospects and mostly via upcoming UFA and he doesn't have much to show for a trade record? Oy ve.

Young players for vets. Care to list the examples where Burke did this?

 

[Faltorvo]

Guy lands 3 All Stars plus multiple other young pieces without surrendering any top prospects and mostly via upcoming UFA and he doesn't have much to show for a trade record? Oy ve.

Young players for vets. Care to list the examples where Burke did this?

What? huh?

You don't view 2 1rst round picks as prospects?

One that turned out to possibly be more valuable then anything we have in this organization.

Is there any 1/1 deal the leafs could make for Seguin right now?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

What? huh?

You don't view 2 1rst round picks as prospects?

One that turned out to possibly be more valuable then anything we have in this organization.

Is there any 1/1 deal the leafs could make for Seguin right now?

Why would I view picks as prospects? Even if I did, what "vets" were acquired using them?