Are Leaf fans prepared to do a proper rebuild?

[Auston Marlander]

OHHH!! back up a minute, the only reasons he has JVR and Kessel is because he used 3 of the 4 first rounds picks given freely to every gm in the league.

He used 3 of our last 5 top 10 picks to land 2 nhl ready players, ya thats a stroke of pure genious, ehhh no
.

So GM's who use their picks are not good GMs?

It's pretty clear there was nothing short of a cup that would shut the Burke haters up, even then there would be complaints about Burke selling the future for the cup, or something along those lines.

 

[charliolemieux]

So GM's who use their picks are not good GMs?

It's pretty clear there was nothing short of a cup that would shut the Burke haters up, even then there would be complaints about Burke selling the future for the cup, or something along those lines.

So he used 3 picks (2nd overall, 5th overall and 9th overall) to get a 2nd overall and a 5th overall.

How many of them have had a PPG season or multiple 30g seasons so far?

 

[Auston Marlander]

So he used 3 picks (2nd overall, 5th overall and 9th overall) to get a 2nd overall and a 5th overall.

How many of them have had a PPG season or multiple 30g seasons so far?

Where's the face palm smilie?

 

[charliolemieux]

Where's the face palm smilie?

And the funniest thing of all is that the 5th overall the Leafs got is quite likely the best player out of all 5 of the players including both 2nd overall picks.

 

[The Apologist]

And the funniest thing of all is that the 5th overall the Leafs got is quite likely the best player out of all 5 of the players including both 2nd overall picks.

We may possibly end up with the TWO best players of the five by the end of it all.

 

[leafsfuture]

First post in this thread, I dont see how we need to start a new rebuild.

IMO we have many pieces of a Cup team.

Our biggest strength is on the wing. Kessel, Lupul, JVR, Mac, Kulemin all can be top 6 wingers, and Frattin and Kadri have similar potential. The big commonality among these guys is skating ability. We have speed on the wing, it can hurt teams, and as Torts showed in 24/7, teams fear Phil Kessel

On defence, we lack a true no 1, however we have key guys. Every Stanley Cup winning team has a Carl Gunnarsson in their top 4. LA had Slava Voynov, Boston had Siedenberg. Dion Phaneuf is not a no 1 defenceman, but he is a minute eater, his point shot is coming back, and he is a decent leader. Pre-concussion John-Michael Liles is also a legit top 4 defenceman, and a lot of our hopes rest on him.

I expect a slight regression from Jake Gardiner when he returns, but he is still worth more than just points. He offers puck possession, poise, and defensively is good for his style.

Of course our prospect pool has talent. Rielly can be a star, Kadri can do things with a puck that no one else on the team can, period, Frattin is a beast, and if he doesnt pan out in the top 6, will be a great 3rd line energy player

 

[IceDogsandLeafs]

I have been ready for one for 10 years now and the sooner it starts the sooner it ends.

Correct. There was never a serious attempt to stock up on draft picks and build through the draft. Just look at the Kessel deal.

 

[Leafidelity]

Correct. There was never a serious attempt to stock up on draft picks and build through the draft. Just look at the Kessel deal.

The Leafs have more first round picks in their system then any other team in the NHL. The Kessel deal was almost four years ago...

 

[firstemperor]

First post in this thread, I dont see how we need to start a new rebuild.

IMO we have many pieces of a Cup team.

Our biggest strength is on the wing. Kessel, Lupul, JVR, Mac, Kulemin all can be top 6 wingers, and Frattin and Kadri have similar potential. The big commonality among these guys is skating ability. We have speed on the wing, it can hurt teams, and as Torts showed in 24/7, teams fear Phil Kessel

On defence, we lack a true no 1, however we have key guys. Every Stanley Cup winning team has a Carl Gunnarsson in their top 4. LA had Slava Voynov, Boston had Siedenberg. Dion Phaneuf is not a no 1 defenceman, but he is a minute eater, his point shot is coming back, and he is a decent leader. Pre-concussion John-Michael Liles is also a legit top 4 defenceman, and a lot of our hopes rest on him.


I expect a slight regression from Jake Gardiner when he returns, but he is still worth more than just points. He offers puck possession, poise, and defensively is good for his style.

Of course our prospect pool has talent. Rielly can be a star, Kadri can do things with a puck that no one else on the team can, period, Frattin is a beast, and if he doesnt pan out in the top 6, will be a great 3rd line energy player

Extremely optimistic outlook. Still convinced Kessel is barely a net positive when he's on the ice. I suppose Kulemin at his best (if he proves the year before last wasn't an abberation) can be a top 6 wing player on a contending team- big IF. Mac doesn't cut it on a top 6 of a cup team, and if he is, he will be a clear weak-link. JVR is an unknown, Lupul is in the same dilemma as Kulemin.

I don't see any upside on defense besides Gardiner and Reilly. Liles is a passable quarterback special teams/top 4 type guy on a good team when healthy. Phaneuf is criminally overrated, overpaid, and slow afoot. At this point, unless he proves otherwise, I cringe having him on our top pairing on the ice in important minutes defensively. Looks like he's skating on cement more often than not. Everyone else is a dime a dozen, we'll see if the system fixes some issues, but inherently, I can't say anything positive about our defense.

We'll never be a good team without goaltending and unlike Burke, I'm convinced Reimer will never be a passable goaltender in this league. Forget positioning issues, he has arguably the weakest glove hand and recovery of any starting goaltender I've seen pre-lockout. Combine that with his seeming lack of inherent talent, as opposed to a guy like Bernier, and it's baffling to me how one can hold him to such high esteem, despite having what was referred to as "the best goalie coach on the planet".

 

[charliolemieux]

The Leafs have more first round picks in their system then any other team in the NHL. The Kessel deal was almost four years ago...

WHy do people fail to see this.

Everytime I brought up Burke bringing in former 1sts, it was brushed aside.

Well if you are building a team from scratch do you acquire former 1sts or former 4th round draft picks?

We got a good young core and a championship level farm team. I fail to see what the problem is in this rebuild.

 

[firstemperor]

Quality>Quantity. Return on the 1st's is just as important as the 1st's itself. But more importantly then both is overall asset accumulation. Just looking at the #1 of 1st rounders this team has is a completely flawed method of looking at things. If one is going to pull out a completely arbitrary and seemingly irrelevant statistic, it'd probably be best to justify it- if the goal is to promote intellectual discourse.

 

[charliolemieux]

We'll never be a good team without goaltending and unlike Burke, I'm convinced Reimer will never be a passable goaltender in this league. Forget positioning issues, he has arguably the weakest glove hand and recovery of any starting goaltender I've seen pre-lockout. Combine that with his seeming lack of inherent talent, as opposed to a guy like Bernier, and it's baffling to me how one can hold him to such high esteem, despite having what was referred to as "the best goalie coach on the planet".

I agree, but really what is Burke supposed to say? That JAmes is crap?
He was likely putting Reimer in any trade for a top goalie so he can't be trashing him in hte media.

 

[firstemperor]

I agree, but really what is Burke supposed to say? That JAmes is crap?
He was likely putting Reimer in any trade for a top goalie so he can't be trashing him in hte media.

Except Duthie didn't even ask him about Reimer in particular. He brought it up himself. Not saying I'm right and he's wrong, obviously, the jury is still out.

Personally, while I feel his failure to find a goaltender in his 4 years (which was priority 1A, 1B, 2, 3,...10) since he got this job was anything close to the sole reason for his dismissal, it certainly makes one wonder whether he failed in terms of a talent evaluation when it came to Reimer. Not saying a guy Bernier will be better (Although I would hold him at a much greater acclaim/upside than Reimer) from an eye test alone (without knowing what the Kings want), it certainly seems like his cost wouldn't be a king's ransom (For example, I think most fans would be open to dealing Kadri).

 

[Jerkini]

I don't know how anyone can look at this roster and say they haven't been doing a proper rebuild, to be honest. We all knew it was going to take time.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

WHy do people fail to see this.

Everytime I brought up Burke bringing in former 1sts, it was brushed aside.

Well if you are building a team from scratch do you acquire former 1sts or former 4th round draft picks?

We got a good young core and a championship level farm team. I fail to see what the problem is in this rebuild.

The Marlies team Burke inherited won ONE less game in the playoffs, and had around 15 more points in the regular season.
I expect spin and rhetoric as your response to this.

The perks of 1st round picks is that they COULD turn into superstars. But not all of them do.
Burke typically traded for players that were drafted in the 1st round, but hadn't panned out to their anticipated potential.
It's easy to trade for players that were previously 1st round picks but didn't pan out. It's not an accomplishment to be proud of.

Regardless of where these players were drafted, after a four year rebuild the leafs don't score more goals, don't prevent more goals, don't win more games, and have lower rated prospects according to professional nhl scouts.

Go ahead and keep clinging to trivial facts that make no difference to the standings... "he has more players drafted in the 1st round than anyone else. THAT'S what matters. Not the standings".

I'll keep stating the IMPORTANT facts that outline the bigger picture.
No more goals scored. No more goals prevented. Less games one. Lower rated prospects.

Have fun responding with spin and rhetoric.

 

[charliolemieux]

Except Duthie didn't even ask him about Reimer in particular. He brought it up himself. Not saying I'm right and he's wrong, obviously, the jury is still out.

Personally, while I feel his failure to find a goaltender in his 4 years (which was priority 1A, 1B, 2, 3,...10) since he got this job was anything close to the sole reason for his dismissal, it certainly makes one wonder whether he failed in terms of a talent evaluation when it came to Reimer. Not saying a guy Bernier will be better (Although I would hold him at a much greater acclaim/upside than Reimer) from an eye test alone (without knowing what the Kings want), it certainly seems like his cost wouldn't be a king's ransom (For example, I think most fans would be open to dealing Kadri).

The only goalie that I regret not getting is Vokoun.

All the others I don't care about.

Why deal Kadri?

Put the kid on the 3rd line 2 years ago and everything changes. But he was a victim to Burkes 6 and 6 philosophy.

People need to realise no one is perfect. I think some people are Putting Burke on a pedistal just so you can make him a target.

 

[charliolemieux]

The Marlies team Burke inherited won ONE less game in the playoffs, and had around 15 more points in the regular season.
I expect spin and rhetoric as your response to this.

The perks of 1st round picks is that they COULD turn into superstars. But not all of them do.
Burke typically traded for players that were drafted in the 1st round, but hadn't panned out to their anticipated potential.
It's easy to trade for players that were previously 1st round picks but didn't pan out. It's not an accomplishment to be proud of.

Regardless of where these players were drafted, after a four year rebuild the leafs don't score more goals, don't prevent more goals, don't win more games, and have lower rated prospects according to professional nhl scouts.

Go ahead and keep clinging to trivial facts that make no difference to the standings... "he has more players drafted in the 1st round than anyone else. THAT'S what matters. Not the standings".

I'll keep stating the IMPORTANT facts that outline the bigger picture.
No more goals scored. No more goals prevented. Less games one. Lower rated prospects.

Have fun responding with spin and rhetoric.

I have heard all your lame arguments before.

YOu only have about 4 and you repeat them over and over.

If the Leafs were to win the Sanley cup in 6 games I would fully ecxpect you to complain that they should have done it in 4.


YOU simply fail to see. PEriod. And that is your own problem. Enjoy Nonis since he is the one who did most of the GM'ing anyway.

HOw long before you call for his head?

 

[summerstorm]

He may become a consistent 50 pt. guy but Burke said "This kid will be a star in this league!" Four years of horrible hockey and all he got was Reilly,not much of an accomplishment.If Kessel walks,a drunk monkey with a dartboard could do better.

have you been practicing???

 

[firstemperor]

The only goalie that I regret not getting is Vokoun.

All the others I don't care about.

Why deal Kadri?

Put the kid on the 3rd line 2 years ago and everything changes. But he was a victim to Burkes 6 and 6 philosophy.

People need to realise no one is perfect. I think some people are Putting Burke on a pedistal just so you can make him a target.

Agree with Voukon, but I'm not sure he wanted to come here.

As for why Burke is a target, I don't think that's the case. Many here, including myself, just are annoyed at some of the rationale of why he was a supposedly great GM. He's been a failure here at the end of the day and had an admittedly, fair amount of time to build the team. In fact, I feel he fell way short of expectations, given that I think he did worst than he should have (by any reasonable, average and linear expectation) with what should have been, 4 extremely high lottery picks- i.e terrible asset accumulation. No wins/losses.

Thus, from a hockey perspective, it's hard to justify anything in which he should have kept his job. And if the owners felt, after 4 years of failure, that they didn't trust him anymore, timing is completely irrelevant.

 

[Faltorvo]

So GM's who use their picks are not good GMs?

It's pretty clear there was nothing short of a cup that would shut the Burke haters up, even then there would be complaints about Burke selling the future for the cup, or something along those lines.

Using our picks the way he did is not praise worthy at all, no.

JVR for LS is a push right now, nothing to praise there and most NHL pundits call the Kessel deal a bad one at the least.

 

[summerstorm]

Agree with Voukon, but I'm not sure he wanted to come here.

As for why Burke is a target, I don't think that's the case. Many here, including myself, just are annoyed at some of the rationale of why he was a supposedly great GM. He's been a failure here at the end of the day and had an admittedly, fair amount of time to build the team. In fact, I feel he fell way short of expectations, given that I think he did worst than he should have (by any reasonable, average and linear expectation) with what should have been, 4 extremely high lottery picks- i.e terrible asset accumulation. No wins/losses.

Thus, from a hockey perspective, it's hard to justify anything in which he should have kept his job. And if the owners felt, after 4 years of failure, that they didn't trust him anymore, timing is completely irrelevant.

I suppose you forgot the current owners have zero loss so far???

 

[firstemperor]

I suppose you forgot the current owners have zero loss so far???

Does it matter? If your taking over a business, do you just wipe everyone's slate clean like nothing before happened? We're talking about a one billion dollar entity here. Open your eyes and gain some perspective.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

I have heard all your lame arguments before.

YOu only have about 4 and you repeat them over and over.

If the Leafs were to win the Sanley cup in 6 games I would fully ecxpect you to complain that they should have done it in 4.


YOU simply fail to see. PEriod. And that is your own problem. Enjoy Nonis since he is the one who did most of the GM'ing anyway.

HOw long before you call for his head?

You agree that the team Burke inherited was "abysmal", correct?

Ok.

That team was 10th in goals for. Burke's latest team was 10th in goals for.
That team was 30th in goals against. Burke's latest team was 29th. After four years, are you impressed with that "improvement"?
That team was 7th last in the standings. Burkes latest team was 5th last.
That team had higher rated prospects according to professional nhl scouts.

So that begs the question... if the team Burke inherited was "abysmal"... then what does it say about Burke's current team?

If you would address those facts specifically, as opposed to responding with spin... that would be just lovely.
Don't worry... I won't hold my breath.

 

[theIceWookie]

I don't know how to set up a poll but I am curious. Now that we have seen how horrible Burke's improper shortcut,I dont have a plan works. Are Leaf fans prepared to rebuild properly or are we looking to make the playoffs right away and of course lose? If one looks openly at the rest of the east,we have no chance now or even with Luongo. Will we now repeat the mistakes of the last 46 years or do a proper rebuild which might take 2 years or even less? Thoughts?

This type of sensationalism is so typical in Leaf fans, and generally shows a collectivism of stupidity. It's been a driving force behind our failure to do anything. Why you may ask? The pressure of the mostly ignorant fan bas has driven many a general manager, coach and board of this team to make moronic moves that have drastically hurt us.

JFJ is a perfect example. The guy was not a trading GM, he was a drafting GM. He came from a drafting background and even now after what many would call a failure of epic proportions (and it largely was), he's still employed as a scout in the NHL. Why? Because he's damn good at it. Kulemin, Frattin, Gunnarson were his late round strikes. Rask was one of his first round hits. But he wasn't able to work to that strength, because he faced pressure from ownership to make moves to make the playoffs. Onwership was hearing this pressure from the fans. And so we were given one of the worst GM tenures in Leaf history.

Other great examples? Look at how many players were run out of town because they weren't good enough. Then they go to another team, do well because they were given a shot, and the Leafs were on the outside looking in.

This brings me to the idea of a "proper rebuild". This is a pie in the sky fallacy. It's false. It's not true. There is no "proper" way to rebuild a team. There never will be. Pittsburgh, Washington, Chicago, LA went through years and years of last place finishes to get the star players that helped them be succesful. Want to know what they don't tell you about those years? They came with busts too. Chicago had Ruttu do nothing for them and Cam Barker totally bust (at 3rd overall no less), Pittsburgh had Whitney do the same. And then there is Atlanta (now Winnipeg), Columbus, Florida, Phoenix, the Islanders. Teams that went through the "proper rebuild" and it did jack for them, leaving them no better then they were before.

Teams win in a variety of ways. They trade for it, they have late round picks play successfully, they sign players in Free Agency. Sow me a cup winner, and I'll give you a completely different story of how their success came about.

The common argument for a proper rebuild is that you need your own first round picks to win. Well let me show you Boston, the team we grabbed Phil Kessel from. When they won the cup, they had Seguin and Hamill on their teams as first rounders. Two players who did very little to help them win. In fact many people actually talk about how trading two of their most prolific first rounders, Joe Thornton and Phil Kessel, led to them winning that cup. Getting the cap space for Chara, and the ability to trade for Horton (a reclamation project for those that claim those things don't work) directly led to them winning a cup.

So why would we need a "proper rebuild" when we have a collection of young talented players already.

Kessel is 25, JVR is 23, Gardiner is 22, Phanuef is 27, Lupul is 29, Grabovski is 28. This is a young talented core. Four of these players are top 10 players picked within the last ten or eleven years and have all shown significant potential.

Why in the world would we need to start over? We clearly still have needs, but doing a rebuild that means trading them is moronic. This team is a good goaltender away from being a playoff team, and a top line center away from being a big threat. And still with a core that is all under 30. Plus blue chip prospects in Kadri (yes he's still a blue chipper) and Rielly?

Toronto does not need to do a "proper rebuild". They are well on their way.

 

[The Apologist]

This type of sensationalism is so typical in Leaf fans, and generally shows a collectivism of stupidity. It's been a driving force behind our failure to do anything. Why you may ask? The pressure of the mostly ignorant fan bas has driven many a general manager, coach and board of this team to make moronic moves that have drastically hurt us.

JFJ is a perfect example. The guy was not a trading GM, he was a drafting GM. He came from a drafting background and even now after what many would call a failure of epic proportions (and it largely was), he's still employed as a scout in the NHL. Why? Because he's damn good at it. Kulemin, Frattin, Gunnarson were his late round strikes. Rask was one of his first round hits. But he wasn't able to work to that strength, because he faced pressure from ownership to make moves to make the playoffs. Onwership was hearing this pressure from the fans. And so we were given one of the worst GM tenures in Leaf history.

Other great examples? Look at how many players were run out of town because they weren't good enough. Then they go to another team, do well because they were given a shot, and the Leafs were on the outside looking in.

Toronto does not need to do a "proper rebuild". They are well on their way.

This. You may just be my new personal hero. Well done sir.