Are Leaf fans prepared to do a proper rebuild?

[charliolemieux]

Canuck fans on the trade board want to do Kassian+Schneider+1st for Kessel

Kassian Sucks and the 1st is likely 25th or higher.

Improve Kassian or add a 2nd.


Interesting offer though.

 

[onebighockeyfan]

I don't know how to set up a poll but I am curious. Now that we have seen how horrible Burke's improper shortcut,I dont have a plan works. Are Leaf fans prepared to rebuild properly or are we looking to make the playoffs right away and of course lose? If one looks openly at the rest of the east,we have no chance now or even with Luongo. Will we now repeat the mistakes of the last 46 years or do a proper rebuild which might take 2 years or even less? Thoughts?

Too late, they gave two first pick aways for Kessel. That's the anti-rebuild.

 

[MajorityRules*]

There's no such thing as a "proper rebuild". It's a figment of the imagination.

Thread should have been closed right after this post on page 1.

 

[darrylsittler27]

Wow!

Canuck fans on the trade board want to do Kassian+Schneider+1st for Kessel

Really? I would have to look at that,but I don't believe it.

This isn't a tank thread,so much as I am curious as to the mood of fans.Also,what is Nonnis' plan? Do you blame me after 4 years of horsebleep? Is finishing 14th last a good idea? Seems to me To. tries the same thing over and over without results.If we aren't going to make the playoffs a top 5 pick is a nice consolation prize in a strong draft and I am not the only picking TO out of the race,again.

 

[darrylsittler27]

Well..

Thread should have been closed right after this post on page 1.

The good news is Burke is now a figment of your imagination,while the 5th last finish isn't.

 

[charliolemieux]

The good news is Burke is now a figment of your imagination,while the 5th last finish isn't.

Ummm as far as I see both are memories.

 

[Faltorvo]

So any gm could have traded Beachemin for a solid winger and a top 3 defenseman?
Any gm could trade garbage for a two time all star defenseman?
Any gm could trade Lebda for a young defenseman with worlds of potential? And so what if it's a one year deal, he's still ours right?

Burke has added plenty to this team through some incredible deals.

Man, obviously this is another case of 'let's not ever give any credit, no matter the case'.

The FB trade was a great save from what turned out to be a bad UFA signing, of that there is no debate.

Dion, well, lets just say, last year he started to look like the player we have to have if this franchise is ever going to move forwards, but he still is on the $$ side on that contract, imo he is still over paid. That garbage we sent at the time could of netted some interesting draft slots, but i still make that deal.

Frason, i would never use the words (worlds of potential) in the same sentence. Still a good trade and could work out to be a solid deal for us moving forwards.

Komi/Conn/Army/Gust/Lebda/Dups/Orr/Slaney , can't say any of that worked out at all for us.

Poni trade, Tlust trade,Kubina trade,Versteeg trade, Hayes trade,Stralman trade, don't think any of those moves helped us one little bit, if anything i see some hurt in some of those.

I'd give BB a 50/50 grade on his moves in total, but i can't say i'm not glad that he is gone.

I very much dislike GMs that like to gamble away 1rst/2nd round draft slots before that season ends.

 

[darrylsittler27]

True..

In another week.I guess the consenus is go for it and if we suck April 1st(trade deadline) start dumping?

 

[BlueNero]

I don't know how to set up a poll but I am curious. Now that we have seen how horrible Burke's improper shortcut,I dont have a plan works. Are Leaf fans prepared to rebuild properly or are we looking to make the playoffs right away and of course lose? If one looks openly at the rest of the east,we have no chance now or even with Luongo. Will we now repeat the mistakes of the last 46 years or do a proper rebuild which might take 2 years or even less? Thoughts?

If by "rebuild" you mean making smart trades, drafting well and taking every opportunity to improve the on-ice product without mortgaging the future, then by all means yes.

If by "rebuild" you mean intentionally tanking or not improving the team on the hope that after 5+ years of on-ice failure one of our draft picks will be the next Sidney Crosby, which will be a magic bullet to the Stanley Cup, then absolutely not.

 

[darrylsittler27]

More or less..

That is what I mean.No more selling the future for quick fixes.For better or worse that Boston deal will come back to bite us while Burke sails off with his millions.

Here is a question. Would you trade Kessel for Seguin and Hamilton?

 

[firstemperor]

That is what I mean.No more selling the future for quick fixes.For better or worse that Boston deal will come back to bite us while Burke sails off with his millions.

Here is a question. Would you trade Kessel for Seguin and Hamilton?

Don't think there's any doubt we would. Kessel would be viewed as a horrendous player if there were any advanced statistics in hockey (like in baseball/basketball). Unfortunately, for years on this board, leaf fans have fed into their subjective thoughts to try to convince themselves otherwise. By the way, don't leave out Knight in your hypothetical either. Still think he has a solid chance of being a good 3rd/4th-liner in this league, at the very least.

As for the rebuild question. I don't think it is a necessity in today's league to win by "rebuilding" per-say in the context of a Penguins/Oilers model. A winning/contending team can be built, given the finances of the team, and by asset accumulation alone. Burke just did a terrible job at it, and he was probably trying to mirror the Boston/L.A kings -built teams to a certain extent.

 

[egd27]

Kessel scored 38 goals and we finished 5th last while Burke stubbornly held on to Wilson,his buddy, at everyone else's expense.He was a truly terrible GM and cannot assess talent and is delusional.He was surpised he was fired? Burke was all hot air and no substance.5th last and he thinks we owe him.If Kessel walks the suffering he will put on Leaf nation for the sake of his ego will be legendary.It is always if only with Burke,excuses for failure.

If you're not going to answer the guy's question, why quote it?

 

[Faltorvo]

Like who?

You? DaveT83? Disgruntled O? Bomber? One of the other ones doing backflips because Burke got fired? Reall unbiased oppinions.

Where there once was Kaberle, there now is Gardiner.

Where there once was Blake there now is KEssel.

Where there once was Hagman there now is LUpul.

Where there once was Stempniak there now is JVR.

Where there once was an empty cupboardin the minors there now is several former 1st round picks.


If you can't see this team is better off now than it was 4 years ago then too bad for you I guess.

OHHH!! back up a minute, the only reasons he has JVR and Kessel is because he used 3 of the 4 first rounds picks given freely to every gm in the league.

He used 3 of our last 5 top 10 picks to land 2 nhl ready players, ya thats a stroke of pure genious, ehhh no
.

 

[egd27]

OHHH!! back up a minute, the only reasons he has JVR and Kessel is because he used 3 of the 4 first rounds picks given freely to every gm in the league.

He used 3 of his last 4 top 10 picks to land 2 nhl ready players, ya thats a stroke of pure genious, ehhh no
.

Schenn wasn't a Burke draftee.

 

[Faltorvo]

Don't think there's any doubt we would. Kessel would be viewed as a horrendous player if there were any advanced statistics in hockey (like in baseball/basketball). Unfortunately, for years on this board, leaf fans have fed into their subjective thoughts to try to convince themselves otherwise. By the way, don't leave out Knight in your hypothetical either. Still think he has a solid chance of being a good 3rd/4th-liner in this league, at the very least.

As for the rebuild question. I don't think it is a necessity in today's league to win by "rebuilding" per-say in the context of a Penguins/Oilers model. A winning/contending team can be built, given the finances of the team, and by asset accumulation alone. Burke just did a terrible job at it, and he was probably trying to mirror the Boston/L.A kings -built teams to a certain extent.

Trim the fat, add picks or prospects.

Stop trading away 1rst,2nd,3rd round slots and see what happens on that front.

Pray some quality UFAs will sign here.

Lets face it, this team needs some more luck.

We need the Riems of that magical 48 game stretch (sadly, i have grave doubts).

We needs some draft picks to surprise, alla Berg/Krej/Luc/Rich,Cart,Getz,Perr to name a few. Biggs/Perc,Finn,Blacker,Colb.

We need our high picks to turn into what they should. JVR (ya i know but still), Reil,Kadri.

 

[Faltorvo]

Schenn wasn't a Burke draftee.

oops, right, edited to reflect. TY

 

[Morbo]

Don't think there's any doubt we would. Kessel would be viewed as a horrendous player if there were any advanced statistics in hockey (like in baseball/basketball). Unfortunately, for years on this board, leaf fans have fed into their subjective thoughts to try to convince themselves otherwise.

Good god.

 

[Faltorvo]

Good god.

Not sure horrendous, but i would love to see some kind of advanced metrics on PK, my gut tells me they won't flatter him much.

I'm thinking Semin like comparable when we was scoring.

 

[firstemperor]

Good god.

Thanks for being the epitome of constructiveness on this board. Hopefully the rest of your posts are more substantive than that.

 

[firstemperor]

Not sure horrendous, but i would love to see some kind of advanced metrics on PK, my gut tells me they won't flatter him much.

I'm thinking Semin like comparable when we was scoring.

Semin's another guy who would be terrible on any advanced metrics, by my accounts.

And by horrendous- I mean relative to what people perceive him as- which on this board appears to be between a legitimate all-star and superstar and/or upside. Having a large background in basketball and baseball myself, I would be extremely surprised if Kessel had an efficiency north of a "slightly above average" player at best.

 

[TmlHockeyFan]

EXACTLY! At this point I'm begging them to rebuild...

Just trade everyone that's above 25 years old for picks.

 

[Leafs87]

5 pieces? lmao What 5 pieces?

we're a #1 G and a #1 C from being a big competitor.

one of those is available right now.

we have two top defenders in Rielly and Phaneuf, and another arguable one in Gardiner. You may need a stay at home d-man but that's quite cheap to get/find.

bottom 6 we're actually solid, you got a PK specialist who can win faceoffs in mcclement, a faceoff specialist steckel, komarov and brown bring the pestiness.

top 6 wise we really only need a #1 C.

I would say we are about 4.

We need another defensive D man(a good one not Holzer), a 1C and 1G obviously which we may have in Reimer, and we definitely need a top 6 power forward.

 

[Faltorvo]

Semin's another guy who would be terrible on any advanced metrics, by my accounts.

And by horrendous- I mean relative to what people perceive him as- which on this board appears to be between a legitimate all-star and superstar and/or upside. Having a large background in basketball and baseball myself, I would be extremely surprised if Kessel had an efficiency north of a "slightly above average" player at best.

Ah! relative what what is perceived, ya ,i could see a lot of folks choke on their chicken noodle soup if they ever saw it.

I'm not a Kessel fan by any account, but i know my hockey very well and there is something to be said tho, for being able to do the hardest thing a skater is asked to do, and to do it well, and that is score points/goals.

What concerns me the most tho is, the way/style of play that he may have to play to get that done, one term used is (cheating). If you catch my drift.

Same goes for Lupul.

 

[Crispy Crust]

Semin's another guy who would be terrible on any advanced metrics, by my accounts.

And by horrendous- I mean relative to what people perceive him as- which on this board appears to be between a legitimate all-star and superstar and/or upside. Having a large background in basketball and baseball myself, I would be extremely surprised if Kessel had an efficiency north of a "slightly above average" player at best.

Don't most advanced metrics love Alex Semin actually?

 

[colchar]

Here is a question. Would you trade Kessel for Seguin and Hamilton?

Kessel - 456 games played and 327 points (165 goals and 162 assists)


Seguin - 155 games played and 89 points (40 goals and 49 assists)
Hamilton - O NHL games


Based on his production Kessel is worth more than the two of them. The problem is that he was not the right player for Toronto at that time. If that same deal was made in order to acquire Kessel as one of the last couple of pieces needed to put Toronto over the top for a Cup run then fine. But considering the state of the team when that deal was made it might have been a better idea to hang on to those picks or, at the very least, to have insisted that at least one of them (likely the one from the first year) be lottery protected.