Are Leaf fans prepared to do a proper rebuild?

[Faltorvo]

Why would I view picks as prospects? Even if I did, what "vets" were acquired using them?

Woah now eyeball, i never said a word about vets, at all.

Well if you don't view picks as prospects, who makes up these multiple youth he brought in then?

 

[Mess]

I wouldn't look for them to blow everything up and start over. Rogers and TSN want to start showing playoff games ASAP. Nonis will trade for Luongo and try again to rebuild the team by adding key free agents on top of what we have now.

Many on here won't like it, but with media companies owning the Leafs there is no appetite to finish last for the next 5 years. These guys bought the golden goose and they want their eggs.

Agreed, however a partial draft rebuild in Toronto can be an improvement over past mistakes, accomplished by simply not trading away draft picks for instant help. Then develop that internally into future Leafs and not used as currency to fuel impatience.

That is essentially the closest thing we're going to get in Toronto to a true draft rebuild.

 

[DD03]

Woah now eyeball, i never said a word about vets, at all.

Well if you don't view picks as prospects, who makes up these multiple youth he brought in then?

The point is instead of getting caught up in the vicious cycle of trading picks for players with 3 years left in their careers, we traded the picks for a guy only 3 years removed from the draft..

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Woah now eyeball, i never said a word about vets, at all.

Well if you don't view picks as prospects, who makes up these multiple youth he brought in then?

You quoted me referencing a post that discussed trading things away for vets.

Picks can be used for anything. We used a 2nd for Liles. Why would I call picks prospects until they have been used on something? Worse yet is arguing (as the poster is) that a pick COULD have been used on an individual player with the hindsight of their career. I can look at every single draft and point out all kinds of idiotic selections after the fact. Likewise, I also can offer no guarantee that had a pick been kept that the individual people are pointing to would have been selected. It really is a fool's errand.

 

[Faltorvo]

The point is instead of getting caught up in the vicious cycle of trading picks for players with 3 years left in their careers, we traded the picks for a guy only 3 years removed from the draft..

Well if you want to talk about out a vicious cycle, for me the vicious cycle is trading away 1rs round picks in advance of seasons end.

I have been a leafs fan for a very long time. Maybe seeing the repeats of the Nieds,Lou mistakes, makes this harder one me .

I hate the trade as much for the concept of it, ie, trading 1rsts before you know their slotting as much as i do what Boston got.

I doubt that will ever change in me, i find the concept of trading 1rsts away before the season ends, gut wrenching.

 

[Leafsforlife98]

The Leafs could be a great young team in 2 or 3 years if they did things the right way. We do have some good young pieces that will be a huge part of the future.


Forwards:

James van Reimsdyk
Nikolai Kulemin
Matt Frattin
Nazem Kadri
Tyler Biggs
Joe Colborne
Brad Ross
Carter Ashton
David Broll


Defenceman:

Morgan Reilly
Jake Gardiner
Cody Franson
Carl Gunnarsson
Korbinian Holzer
Jesse Blacker
Stuart Percy
Matt Finn


With these young players developing into solid pieces, we would have a lot of tradeable pieces that could bring in a nice return and set us up for the future.


Phil Kessel- Top Prospect, medium prospect and 1st round pick
Dion Phaneuf- Top Prospect and 1st round pick
Joffery Lupul- Medium Prospect and 1st round pick
Mikhail Grabovski- Medium Prospect and 1st round pick
Clarke Macarther- 1st round pick
Tyler Bozak- Medium Prospect
John Michael Liles- Medium Prospect

If Dave Nonis pulled off these trades, which none of them seem unreasonable, the Leafs would be set for the future. The whole purging could be done in this one shortened season and would give the Leafs the REAL building blocks for the future and would give the fan base hope for the future.

He pulled these trades off he would have added

2 Top Prospects
4 Medium Prospects
5 First Round Picks

For this ONE SHORTENED SEASON we would suck badly, but would be rewarded with a high 1st round pick (Most Likely Top 5). This added to the young guys we already have would give every Leaf fan REAL hope for next season. We would have 6 first round picks, which could be packaged with other pieces to get up to 3 HIGH LOTTERY picks which could be turned into Seth Jones, a Franchise center and another quality asset, since there are a few of them in the top 10. Then we are set. With the cap room to pretty much overpay for any free agent we want.


The Possible Line-Up Next Year


James Van ReimsdykFranchise Center-Top Prospect
Matt Frattin-High Draft Pick-Nazem Kadri
Tyler Biggs-Joe Colborne-Nikolai Kulemin
Brad Ross-Greg McKegg-David Broll


Seth Jones-Morgan Reilly
Jake Gardiner-Top Prospect
Carl Gunnarsson-Cody Franson

That is a team that can bring REAL HOPE to Leaf Nation. Although we all know, they would never strip it down.

 

[Morbo]

Agreed, however a partial draft rebuild in Toronto can be an improvement over past mistakes, accomplished by simply not trading away draft picks for instant help. Then develop that internally into future Leafs and not used as currency to fuel impatience.

That is essentially the closest thing we're going to get in Toronto to a true draft rebuild.

Pretty much, yeah. If they get another high pick in the '13 draft now that we're actually be playing a season, it will be despite Nonis' best efforts to the contrary. That's why I wouldn't have minded if they didn't play a half-year that really doesn't mean anything -- the Leafs would have likely again gotten one of the better players in the draft given it would have been based on their standing last year.

But those aforementioned efforts won't come at the cost of what little blue chip talent we do have, which is good.

I also like that Nonis is continuing the "only trade a young player for another young player" policy.

 

[The Podium]

Id rather continue with Burkes philosophy. A proper rebuild will take 5-10 years, and we are only a couple pieces away from being a strong team. Exploit situations to steal players and well be set. The Luongo situation or the Jamie Benn situation, find a way to force Gillis or Newys hand and there you have a young roster ready to compete.

Luongo:

Origininally dealt for Bertuzzi, Allen, Auld
exquivalents Lupul, Finn, Scrivens

Luongo however is now older, has a negative valued contract, and Bertuzzis value was diminishd since the Moore incident so,

Bozak, Finn, Scrivens

Benn:

Holding out as an RFA, starting training camp on his couch.
Lupul + 2014 1st (Or a Kessel 1-for-1 swap)

Leaves us with a roster of:

JVR - Benn - Kessel/Lupul
MacArthur - Grabovski - Kulemin
Frattin - McClement - Kadri
Komarov - Steckel - Brown

Phaneuf - Gunnarsson
Gardiner - Komisarek
Franson - Liles

Luongo
Reimer

Strong team, only glaring holes would be #4D (eventually Rielly would fill in) and 2nd line LW (dime a dozen in FA).

 

[Leafsforlife98]

Id rather continue with Burkes philosophy. A proper rebuild will take 5-10 years, and we are only a couple pieces away from being a strong team. Exploit situations to steal players and well be set. The Luongo situation or the Jamie Benn situation, find a way to force Gillis or Newys hand and there you have a young roster ready to compete.

Luongo:

Origininally dealt for Bertuzzi, Allen, Auld
exquivalents Lupul, Finn, Scrivens

Luongo however is now older, has a negative valued contract, and Bertuzzis value was diminishd since the Moore incident so,

Bozak, Finn, Scrivens

Benn:

Holding out as an RFA, starting training camp on his couch.
Lupul + 2014 1st (Or a Kessel 1-for-1 swap)

Leaves us with a roster of:

JVR - Benn - Kessel/Lupul
MacArthur - Grabovski - Kulemin
Frattin - McClement - Kadri
Komarov - Steckel - Brown

Phaneuf - Gunnarsson
Gardiner - Komisarek
Franson - Liles

Luongo
Reimer

Strong team, only glaring holes would be #4D (eventually Rielly would fill in) and 2nd line LW (dime a dozen in FA).

I would love to add Jamie Benn to the line-up. The guy has some serious skills. I played in a ball hockey tournament a couple years ago in Oshawa, and the guy was amazing. He had 3 girls on his team and they still won the tournament. He has got some crazy hands amn. And his accuracy is off the charts. he is also a litlle bigger and has got some meat to him. He would be perfect for our 1st line center.

If there was a trade between us, I would have to think that Grabovski would somehow be a prt of it. When Joe Nieuwendyk was with the Leafs front office, he really liked Grabovski's game. I would have to think he is in the deal somehow, as Dallas would need another center if they moved Benn.

 

[MapleReef]

Sounds Good to Me

I say that we should tank this short season and hope that we get getzlaf & perry. If we don't get them then we should do a full rebuild. But either way we have to tank this short season to get that #1 center we've been looking for. We are not the far off from a good team. We have the prospects, we are just missing them up front. Imagine this line up:

JVR - Getzlaf - Perry
Lupul - Mackinnon - Kessel
Kulemin - Kadri - Frattin
Ross - Mcclemment - Brown

Phaneuf - Reilly
Gardiner - Gunnarsson/Blacker
finn - Percy

Buyout Grabovski and Komisarek. Let Conolly, lombardi, macarthur leave via FA/trade.

All we need is at minimum an average goalie.

If we can't get percy and getzlaf then this is all for not and we should tank the following year to round out our top 6 with mackinnon and whoever gets drafted in 2014.

Perfect set up and it would be a nice team too!

 

[yakfish]

I think Burk left us with an excellent foundation of young talent to build on. Blowing up the team and tanking the season for picks wouldn't be a smart move. Even if you left the team alone it is better now than it was last year (which isn't hard). Rember the first half of last year being in 6th place? Of course we need a goalie and a #1 center but the core group of guys is solid with alot of talent and youth. The addition of JVR is going to help, and Kadri should get some more playing time this season and if he shows he can produce like most of us think he will it will be another improvement over last season.

Come on people! Hockey is back! Let's be optimistic! Or is that not allowed here??

 

[Tombernack]

The Leafs could be a great young team in 2 or 3 years if they did things the right way. We do have some good young pieces that will be a huge part of the future.


Forwards:

James van Reimsdyk
Nikolai Kulemin
Matt Frattin
Nazem Kadri
Tyler Biggs
Joe Colborne
Brad Ross
Carter Ashton
David Broll


Defenceman:

Morgan Reilly
Jake Gardiner
Cody Franson
Carl Gunnarsson
Korbinian Holzer
Jesse Blacker
Stuart Percy
Matt Finn


With these young players developing into solid pieces, we would have a lot of tradeable pieces that could bring in a nice return and set us up for the future.


Phil Kessel- Top Prospect, medium prospect and 1st round pick
Dion Phaneuf- Top Prospect and 1st round pick
Joffery Lupul- Medium Prospect and 1st round pick
Mikhail Grabovski- Medium Prospect and 1st round pick
Clarke Macarther- 1st round pick
Tyler Bozak- Medium Prospect
John Michael Liles- Medium Prospect

If Dave Nonis pulled off these trades, which none of them seem unreasonable, the Leafs would be set for the future. The whole purging could be done in this one shortened season and would give the Leafs the REAL building blocks for the future and would give the fan base hope for the future.

He pulled these trades off he would have added

2 Top Prospects
4 Medium Prospects
5 First Round Picks

For this ONE SHORTENED SEASON we would suck badly, but would be rewarded with a high 1st round pick (Most Likely Top 5). This added to the young guys we already have would give every Leaf fan REAL hope for next season. We would have 6 first round picks, which could be packaged with other pieces to get up to 3 HIGH LOTTERY picks which could be turned into Seth Jones, a Franchise center and another quality asset, since there are a few of them in the top 10. Then we are set. With the cap room to pretty much overpay for any free agent we want.


The Possible Line-Up Next Year


James Van ReimsdykFranchise Center-Top Prospect
Matt Frattin-High Draft Pick-Nazem Kadri
Tyler Biggs-Joe Colborne-Nikolai Kulemin
Brad Ross-Greg McKegg-David Broll


Seth Jones-Morgan Reilly
Jake Gardiner-Top Prospect
Carl Gunnarsson-Cody Franson

That is a team that can bring REAL HOPE to Leaf Nation. Although we all know, they would never strip it down.

Now this is a tank job but,

1) No ownership would ever, ever be ok with this
2) Season ticket holders would be furious
3) Other teams would be furious we are handing out free wins to other teams they are competing with for playoffs
4) Never has tanking been this obvious, we'd probably be penalized all those picks by the league for crapping on the spirit of the game

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Hahah ya... 2 year rebuild or less? That exists? Anyways, I don't think we need a total rebuild at this point in time. This time we need a retool like Burke originally thought. We needed a rebuild when he took over, but we're much better off now.

it absolutely exists see philly in 2007

 

[Faltorvo]

Now this is a tank job but,

1) No ownership would ever, ever be ok with this
2) Season ticket holders would be furious
3) Other teams would be furious we are handing out free wins to other teams they are competing with for playoffs
4) Never has tanking been this obvious, we'd probably be penalized all those picks by the league for crapping on the spirit of the game

The only 4 trades that anyone would look sideways at would be Kessel,Dion,Lupul and Grabo.

Well one could justify that both Grabo and Dion are over paid and don't exactly fit into the teams timeline for success moving forward.

Lups is a obvious sell high/risk of UFA flight trade.

Kessel trade ,is the obvious, clean the stench off, that trade out of town once and for all, well and fears that since we would be in a full rebuild again, there are concerns of UFA flight in 1.5 seasons.

As long as the trades are fair value i would fine it very hard for GB to be able to prove intent on the leafs part, regarding the trades.

 

[Syn3rgetic]

I don't post often, but when I do, they are on meaningful threads.

Anyway, this question is hard to answer. The definition of a proper rebuild is really ambiguous. Do you mean to sell assets for futures? What real assets do we realistically have? I'll list them, and their respective "catches":

1. Kessel - Perennial 30 goal scorer with huge potential to become a 40, even 50 goal scorer with proper linemates. Catch: Smallish, notoriously, allegedly "lazy", and doesn't play defense.

2. Lupul - Turning into a super star, making Getz and Perry looking like jokes last year. Catch: He's injury prone and its unknown that he'll be that superstar again this year.

3. Our young guys: Gardiner, Rielly, Kadri, Percy, Biggs, Colborne - Huge talent and projected to be 1Fs and 1Ds in the NHL. Catch: These guys have yet to prove ANYTHING in the NHL. No one knows how they'll turn out and and if they'll turn out at all.

These are pretty much our high value assets. To rebuild means to sell off at least Kessel and Lupul. Keep in mind guys, Kessel is younger than I, and I'm only 25!

We don't have a proper rebuild to do, we don't! We don't have any assets that are worth selling off. The value they are worth to our team is higher than they are to other teams. Unless a team was one Kessel away from getting a cup, it isn't worth to sell the farm for our assets.

THAT SAID, I think we are ALREADY in a proper rebuild, Burke just wouldn't admit it. Where we are now is where we should have been 2 years ago, in terms of players and assets, not standing. If the team had gel'd earlier, we should have snuck into the playoffs at position 5-8.

Have optimism, we can't get any worse than we already are. This summer is the summer is spend. Buy out the horrendous contracts like LACK, and acquire at any cost Perry and Getz. Get a top 15 Goaltender and we are on the way. I'm not blinded enough to say we can win within 2 years, but I can see us winning within 5 IF we get the pieces we need, without tearing apart this team.

Thanks for reading and Go Leafs Go!

 

[Morbo]

I don't post often, but when I do, they are on meaningful threads.

 

[The Apologist]

I don't post often, but when I do, they are on meaningful threads.

Anyway, this question is hard to answer. The definition of a proper rebuild is really ambiguous. Do you mean to sell assets for futures? What real assets do we realistically have? I'll list them, and their respective "catches":

1. Kessel - Perennial 30 goal scorer with huge potential to become a 40, even 50 goal scorer with proper linemates. Catch: Smallish, notoriously, allegedly "lazy", and doesn't play defense.

2. Lupul - Turning into a super star, making Getz and Perry looking like jokes last year. Catch: He's injury prone and its unknown that he'll be that superstar again this year.

3. Our young guys: Gardiner, Rielly, Kadri, Percy, Biggs, Colborne - Huge talent and projected to be 1Fs and 1Ds in the NHL. Catch: These guys have yet to prove ANYTHING in the NHL. No one knows how they'll turn out and and if they'll turn out at all.

These are pretty much our high value assets. To rebuild means to sell off at least Kessel and Lupul. Keep in mind guys, Kessel is younger than I, and I'm only 25!

We don't have a proper rebuild to do, we don't! We don't have any assets that are worth selling off. The value they are worth to our team is higher than they are to other teams. Unless a team was one Kessel away from getting a cup, it isn't worth to sell the farm for our assets.

THAT SAID, I think we are ALREADY in a proper rebuild, Burke just wouldn't admit it. Where we are now is where we should have been 2 years ago, in terms of players and assets, not standing. If the team had gel'd earlier, we should have snuck into the playoffs at position 5-8.

Have optimism, we can't get any worse than we already are. This summer is the summer is spend. Buy out the horrendous contracts like LACK, and acquire at any cost Perry and Getz. Get a top 15 Goaltender and we are on the way. I'm not blinded enough to say we can win within 2 years, but I can see us winning within 5 IF we get the pieces we need, without tearing apart this team.

Thanks for reading and Go Leafs Go!

I wouldn't put too much faith in Corey Perry coming here. If you're planning on ripping part the team hoping they sign plan on many years or terrible hockey when they don't.

I swear, people need to stop thinking like video game players. Life does not work that way.

 

[theIceWookie]

Who rebuilds with a 22yr old 35G scorer?

Not us or Burke? Kessel was 21 at the time

 

[theIceWookie]

The core of a rebuild includes 5 major players.A star center,a number one defenseman,a number one goalie,a power forward(aka Lucic) and a rugged stay at home Dman.Of which, Gardiner and Reilly are the only one we have.Burke continually plugged holes with players not suitable for their role.Kessel as the cornerstone,Bozak,Phaneuff and Reimer.In short, this team was not built properly.He simply continually turned over players to cover up that fact.If he ever had a plan he never stated it,nor does anyone know what it was.Smoke and mirrors.

One cannot overlook the fact that last year may have been the greatest collapse in history,showing a lack of character and leadership,yet alone grit.Something Burke had promised from the outset.In the Beauchmin trade Burke had tried to get Shultz in a contract eating trade(Lupul was a big question mark),something he could not have done if it wasn't for Leaf pursestrings.In other words he got lucky by mistake.If we remove that one trade his trade record was not that great.See Kubina,Versteeg,Kessel.He also stubbornly held onto Wilson when anyone could see the team had quit on him long ago.

What the Leafs need to do is stop trading young players for vets and helping other teams with their problem players.Something that has backfired time after time.Kurvers for Niedermayer,Clark for Luongo,Courtnall for Kordic,Rask for Raycroft,Nolan for Boyes and a first,Kessel for Seguin and Hamilton and next Luongo(Vancouver's problem).If Burke had done nothing but draft what his scouts told him to,this team would be better longterm.He addressed only one need(number one dman) in four years here and this bountiful prospect pool he had has only one impact player(Reilly).I think we need another year of high drafting and trying to sign free agents of merit.Trading for Luongo will not only alter that course but may cost more valuable assets,helping Vancouver more than it does us,in the long run.I am suggesting we bite the bullet this year in a strong draft and go after free agents next summer instead of trading for Luongo who would improve us but not guarantee the playoffs.Thus the mediocrity will continue unless we change that style(shortcuts).

I continue to be astounded by how people think Burke traded Seguin and Hamilton for Kessel. He didn't. He traded two first round picks, not those players. And Kessel just finished 6th overall in the entire league scoring. At 24. Give me a break. Hardly the worst deal in the world. Raycroft for Rask will go down as much worse.

 

[threeGo]

I wouldn't put too much faith in Corey Perry coming here. If you're planning on ripping part the team hoping they sign plan on many years or terrible hockey when they don't.

I swear, people need to stop thinking like video game players. Life does not work that way.

You don't have to rip apart the team to get perry and getzlaf when they will likely be available in free agency. With our cap space and a buy out of komisarek we can afford to give perry and getzlaf identical 8mil cap hits and then trade/sign luongo (if he gets bought out). If we can sign these two then I'd happily trade bozak + kadri for luongo if he is not bought out already (Vancouver will likely take some of his cap space, but we can still fit his 5 mil cap hit). Then next year phaneuf can be traded or signed to a smaller cap hit and we'd still have space for kessel.

 

[The Apologist]

You don't have to rip apart the team to get perry and getzlaf when they will likely be available in free agency. With our cap space and a buy out of komisarek we can afford to give perry and getzlaf identical 8mil cap hits and then trade/sign luongo (if he gets bought out). If we can sign these two then I'd happily trade bozak + kadri for luongo if he is not bought out already (Vancouver will likely take some of his cap space, but we can still fit his 5 mil cap hit). Then next year phaneuf can be traded or signed to a smaller cap hit and we'd still have space for kessel.

This Is exactly what mean.... I'll say it a little clearer for you... Don't count on Perry or Getz signing here.

 

[4evaBlue]

Well if you want to talk about out a vicious cycle, for me the vicious cycle is trading away 1rs round picks in advance of seasons end.

I have been a leafs fan for a very long time. Maybe seeing the repeats of the Nieds,Lou mistakes, makes this harder one me .

I hate the trade as much for the concept of it, ie, trading 1rsts before you know their slotting as much as i do what Boston got.

I doubt that will ever change in me, i find the concept of trading 1rsts away before the season ends, gut wrenching.

So you would never, under any circumstance trade a first rounder. Got it. The majority of the GMs don't agree with you.

 

[Bomber0104]

So you would never, under any circumstance trade a first rounder. Got it. The majority of the GMs don't agree with you.

The majority of GM's have teams that make the playoffs and sell picks in the range of 14-30.

If the Leafs are ever in that position, there may be situations where middle to late first round picks are worth selling off to improve the present outcome rather than the future.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

it absolutely exists see philly in 2007

That's like saying LA was an 8th overall quality seed.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

The Leafs could be a great young team in 2 or 3 years if they did things the right way. We do have some good young pieces that will be a huge part of the future.


Forwards:

James van Reimsdyk
Nikolai Kulemin
Matt Frattin
Nazem Kadri
Tyler Biggs
Joe Colborne
Brad Ross
Carter Ashton
David Broll


Defenceman:

Morgan Reilly
Jake Gardiner
Cody Franson
Carl Gunnarsson
Korbinian Holzer
Jesse Blacker
Stuart Percy
Matt Finn


With these young players developing into solid pieces, we would have a lot of tradeable pieces that could bring in a nice return and set us up for the future.


Phil Kessel- Top Prospect, medium prospect and 1st round pick
Dion Phaneuf- Top Prospect and 1st round pick
Joffery Lupul- Medium Prospect and 1st round pick
Mikhail Grabovski- Medium Prospect and 1st round pick
Clarke Macarther- 1st round pick
Tyler Bozak- Medium Prospect
John Michael Liles- Medium Prospect

If Dave Nonis pulled off these trades, which none of them seem unreasonable, the Leafs would be set for the future. The whole purging could be done in this one shortened season and would give the Leafs the REAL building blocks for the future and would give the fan base hope for the future.

He pulled these trades off he would have added

2 Top Prospects
4 Medium Prospects
5 First Round Picks

For this ONE SHORTENED SEASON we would suck badly, but would be rewarded with a high 1st round pick (Most Likely Top 5). This added to the young guys we already have would give every Leaf fan REAL hope for next season. We would have 6 first round picks, which could be packaged with other pieces to get up to 3 HIGH LOTTERY picks which could be turned into Seth Jones, a Franchise center and another quality asset, since there are a few of them in the top 10. Then we are set. With the cap room to pretty much overpay for any free agent we want.


The Possible Line-Up Next Year


James Van ReimsdykFranchise Center-Top Prospect
Matt Frattin-High Draft Pick-Nazem Kadri
Tyler Biggs-Joe Colborne-Nikolai Kulemin
Brad Ross-Greg McKegg-David Broll


Seth Jones-Morgan Reilly
Jake Gardiner-Top Prospect
Carl Gunnarsson-Cody Franson

That is a team that can bring REAL HOPE to Leaf Nation. Although we all know, they would never strip it down.

Let's assume this dream world existed. What do you do if you don't nail the 1sts? Did you notice how many times you used the word "could"? Then what happens when ADD Leaf Nation deems them all busts after one or two seasons (which we see time and time again on these boards)?