PTO: anyone interested in Raffi Torres (Hurricanes offer PTO)

[Snarky Coyote]

I find his story more tragic than hateful. Having said that I hope that he hangs them up and moves on. Lets be honest there is no room for that behavior in todays game.

 

[ThirdManIn]

I'm in the minority but I'm a Sharks' fan so dismiss this if you want. I think that there is a good chance that Raffi's judgment was impaired by TBIs. It would explain why he didn't change his behavior even when continuing to make bad, dangerous hits hurt him as well as his team (and his victims). Perseverance and inability to adapt or learn are common problems with TBIs.

Because of that, I think you go to far in assuming that there was intent (e..g., saying that he went out there with the sole purpose of throwing dangerous hits or that hitting ppl was first and foremost in his mind) and putting moral blame on him. Might you be right and his poor judgment had nothing to do with brain injuries or defects and instead shows a complete and vicious disregard of the well being of others and a premeditated plan to hit others when he had the chance? Sure. But to dismiss the possibility of him wanting and planning to make better decisions but not being able to do that in a situation that requires quick judgments out of hand and act like the only possible conclusion is that he intended to injure ppl is going too far IMO.

It doesn't matter much bc, regardless of the reason for his actions, he shouldn't be on the ice putting others at risk. He shouldn't be playing in any league. It's not fair to the other players and it's not good for the game.

I realize this is an unpopular opinion but I've known a fair number of ppl with head injuries and Raffi's behavior is consistent with what I've seen with some of them. You plan to do something different the next time y happens but when you need to make a quick judgment, you make the same bad one you'd promised yourself you'd never make again.

This is fair. I should note that Torres has never injured a player on a team for which I root, so my disdain for him and his style of play is not due to allegiance to a club as it may be for others. It is strictly because of how I have perceived his actions on the ice over the course of his career (I made a post a few years ago that went through every single hit for which he received a fine or suspension, and they were all predatory hits before which he could have easily made the decision to play the puck if I remember correctly).

That having been said, I can see your point. Perhaps he does have issues with TBI himself that keeps him from making the proper judgment calls in these situations, though we seem to be in agreement in that, regardless of the reason, he shouldn't be playing in this league any longer, or really any league in my opinion. If he has extensive brain trauma then there is another layer for why he has no place on the ice.

Until I have some more evidence I feel compelled to feel as though he ignored the many calls for him to change his ways, but I had never really thought of it in terms of him being unable to properly judge the situation so I can respect that perspective. Thanks for the input.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

He was very highly spoken of by Sharks teammates, both on the big club and down in the A when he was trying to rehab.

I may be mid-remembering, but I think he left Vancouver under a cloud... teammate-wise.

 

[Spazkat]

He was very highly spoken of by Sharks teammates, both on the big club and down in the A when he was trying to rehab.

I find it hard to believe that someone who goes out of their way to injure other players (and then gets suspended and causes their own team a problem in the process) would be respected in the locker room. In most team sports such a person is considered a problem, both because of the disruption and because no one wants to be 'tarred with the same brush' so to speak.

 

[hohosaregood]

I find it hard to believe that someone who goes out of their way to injure other players (and then gets suspended and causes their own team a problem in the process) would be respected in the locker room. In most team sports such a person is considered a problem, both because of the disruption and because no one wants to be 'tarred with the same brush' so to speak.

They all speak pretty fondly about Raffi when he comes up especially compared to Havlat.

 

[bigwillie]

I do not act like he went out there with the sole purpose of ending lives, but nice strawman there. He went out there with the sole purpose of throwing high, dangerous hits. First and foremost in his mind was not to play the puck if there was the opportunity to hit someone. Now, I don't begrudge a player for playing physically, and I see value in doing so. I do begrudge a player for refusing for years to take responsibility for actions that not only caused injury, but caused suspensions of the player who, for reasons passing understanding, saw no problem with it. There are two kinds of mistakes in this world: the kind you learn from, and the kind you don't. Once you continue to repeat the same "mistakes" without learning from them it becomes obvious that there is intent, so they are no longer mistakes.

You bring up Scott Stevens and Mark Messier, two guys who would have been suspended numerous times in the same era as Torres, but you have no way of knowing if they would have actually learned from it. Torres played during a time when there was much more understanding of the devastating affects of traumatic brain injury. Those guys didn't. Torres had no respect for his fellow players as long as they wore another jersey. Messier didn't either, really, and plenty of people, myself included, call him a dirty player. He just happened to score a **** ton of points and history glosses over his dirty streak. That isn't my fault, and you throwing me in with these unnamed people who seemingly love(d) how Messier played is ridiculous. It doesn't take away my ability and right to call Torres out for his disregard and recklessness, something that was brought out on the ice so often, even after numerous fines and suspensions, that it can no longer be considered to be careless. It can only be considered to be intentionally and unnecessarily violent, which is saying something in the world of hockey. By all means, defend the guy. I can only assume you're a Sharks fan, and I know a few Sharks fans around here like to defend him. That's fine (though the favorite refrain out of San Jose and in defense of him there for a while was "he's played [insert a time that was laughably short] without a suspension, so he's changed!"). It doesn't mean he deserves another chance to show he has learned absolutely nothing, and it doesn't mean that he was a very talented player who decided it was more appropriate to drive shoulders into people's faces and leave his skates to vicious, predatory hits well after medical evidence was readily available to show just how damaging those kinds of idiotic plays could actually be. Quite simply, any positive result on the ice was not worth the risk.

And since you seem to like to exaggerate things wildly, please don't try to spin this into me being against hitting - I'm against the unnecessary ******** Torres brought all too often. In fact, do me a favor and take your baseless exaggerations elsewhere. Thanks.

It's kind of hard to take your requests to avoid exaggeration seriously when, after pushing back against my claim you act like he wanted to murder other skaters, you then claim that a guy who played over 600 NHL games and scored over 250 points went out on the ice with the sole intention of hitting dangerously and severely hurting people. As if all of his 100+ goals occurred as he was going to run a goaltender but instead the puck trickled in off his ass. But I'm the one exaggerating.

You're missing my main point regarding Messier and Stevens, and whether or not they would adapt to the modern game is completely irrelevant. Whether or not you personally loved them is irrelevant as well. My point is that, the vast majority of posters (pardon the generalization - please don't get your feelings hurt!), calling Torres "human garbage" and wishing him ill will celebrated those exact same types of hits Torres made in the past, or at the very least, considered them an integral part of the game. Call him a relic or a caveman, but calling him human garbage is impossibly hypocritical, as again, he was born and bred in an environment where those hits were encouraged, rewarded, and ultimately celebrated. He was just doing what he was trained to do, and you can't fault him for that. You can fault him for failing to adapt, but don't act like he's a villain for struggling in a new era.

Additionally, a lot of people feel he's a monster, but if true, he's a monster that we created. I don't have a problem with people wanting him out of the league, he should be out by any reasonable person's measure. But I feel it's essential to acknowledge that Raffi Torres represents an aspect of the game that we have thankfully moved on from but nevertheless, it was still formerly a major aspect. Hate the game, not the player.

I also completely disagree with your assessment that he was intentionally injuring people, but I think through your detailed "analysis" you apparently conducted I'm sure your mind is made up that he is evil incarnate, so I won't bother with that. I do think Cryptic makes an interesting point and is definitely worth consideration, which I'm glad you are doing.

That is doing a disservice to the dozens and dozens of players who did adapt this aspect of the game to the modern rules.

Like I said, I'm OK with a lifetime ban for him failing to adapt. I'm not OK with people calling him human trash while pretending that they didn't love it when Scott Stevens left Paul Kariya twitching on the ice in a daze.

I don't see how punishing him without burning him at the stake is a "disservice" to the other guys. Keeping him the league would be a disservice, yes. But acting like he's the devil incarnate does nothing for anyone, and I don't see why you think it would.

I may be mid-remembering, but I think he left Vancouver under a cloud... teammate-wise.

I'm not saying he's the perfect teammate and has never had a disagreement with anyone and ***** rainbows and save orphan puppies from burning buildings every day - I'm simply saying he was well respected in San Jose.

Regardless of that, even quality teammates sometimes have spats with individual players and leave teams on bad notes, or sometimes younger players, once *******s, grow and mature and become great teammates. All I'm stating is that, on his most recent NHL team, he was well-liked.

I find it hard to believe that someone who goes out of their way to injure other players (and then gets suspended and causes their own team a problem in the process) would be respected in the locker room. In most team sports such a person is considered a problem, both because of the disruption and because no one wants to be 'tarred with the same brush' so to speak.

Feel free to believe whatever your little heart desires. I'm just reiterating what most players said to the media and what most reports that came out of the locker-room affirmed.

They also probably disagreed with your assessment that he went out of his way to injure other players - I do know many Sharks were upset with his suspension after the Jarret Stoll hit. And I do remember reading that Raffi was very upset with himself after concussing Silferberg.

 

[Spazkat]

I don't get the apologists. If you get one DWI you can chalk it up to a mistake/bad judgement. By the time you're on your 5th arrest nobody cares why or if you're sorry. You're just a serial offender and they want you locked up for good.

It's not even like he did a lot of different stupid things. Almost every single hit was a carbon copy of the others. Talk about not learning from your mistakes

 

[Beville]

Yeah, the LNAH might give him a shot?

 

[bigwillie]

I don't get the apologists. If you get one DWI you can chalk it up to a mistake/bad judgement. By the time you're on your 5th arrest nobody cares why or if you're sorry. You're just a serial offender and they want you locked up for good.

It's not even like he did a lot of different stupid things. Almost every single hit was a carbon copy of the others. Talk about not learning from your mistakes

DUIs are a **** analogy, because no one was brought up being told that DUIs were good, clean, hard driving. No one was being featured in highlight packages on ESPN for DUIs. No one was given a spot on the team because of their DUI ability. No one spent years practicing and honing their DUI skills only for scientific advances to demonstrate their harm and then be more tightly regulated. You get my point.

I get your argument on one level though, that you can only make a mistake so many times, but I don't think these are as massive errors in judgment as everyone wants to believe they were. Most were split-second, centimeter wide errors. Also, see Cryptic's post surmising that these hits might have been brain-injury related themselves.

 

[ThirdManIn]

bigwillie, you really can't see how your absolutely ridiculous leap, which involved pretending as if I claimed Torres was trying to actually kill people, was more absurd than me saying he was out there with the sole intention of throwing high, dangerous hits and first and foremost in his mind was those predatory hits, with puck play being secondary? Seriously? Nevermind that you are exaggerating what I said by making a false claim, whereas I may just be exaggerating what I see. That's my issue. You are not only exaggerating my words; you are pretending like I said something I never said. There is a pretty big difference between my exaggerations and your own, and I have reason to be a bit pissed about it.

Oh, and I never said anything about a detailed analysis, so putting that word in quotation marks is pointless.

Moving right along then. Feel free to take the last word, because this is the last time I will engage you in this discussion.

 

[bigwillie]

bigwillie, you really can't see how your absolutely ridiculous leap, which involved pretending as if I claimed Torres was trying to actually kill people, was more absurd than me saying he was out there with the sole intention of throwing high, dangerous hits and first and foremost in his mind was those predatory hits, with puck play being secondary? Seriously? Nevermind that you are exaggerating what I said by making a false claim, whereas I may just be exaggerating what I see. That's my issue. You are not only exaggerating my words; you are pretending like I said something I never said. There is a pretty big difference between my exaggerations and your own, and I have reason to be a bit pissed about it.

Oh, and I never said anything about a detailed analysis, so putting that word in quotation marks is pointless.

Moving right along then. Feel free to take the last word, because this is the last time I will engage you in this discussion.

I honestly don't know why you are taking that line so personally. Do I really think that you feel Raffi Torres actually tried to murder people? Of course not. It was a touch of hyperbole in a thread filled with verbose, over the top statements, including someone suggesting launching him into the ocean with a ****ing trebuchet! It was an exaggeration, yes, done partially tongue in cheek to express how ridiculous I think the general perception of Raffi Torres is, yours included.

I just think that, as a moderator, you have no doubt seen some pretty brutal things on this site - racism, sexism, boorish trolling, etc. I even called your attitude "disgustingly self-righteous" and honestly, if that had gotten a warning I wouldn't disagree. I'm just shocked that you have taken such great offense at an exaggeration that was nowhere near sincere nor malicious, and is ultimately a dime a dozen in this very thread, never mind these boards.

 

[joestevens29]

I think you sign him so your division rival doesn't. Other than that I don't see the point.

Guy hasn't played in the NHL since 13-14 and is soon to be 35. Just don't know that there is anything left.

 

[Celly4Celebrini]

Guess Carolina is

 

[hockeykicker]

 

[Maurice of Orange]

Raffi Torres said he'll either play in the NHL or he'll retire if he doesn't make the show.

Will see I guess... Carolina's unbelievably giving Torres a PTO...

 

[tarheelhockey]

I have no idea what we're doing here. There's no room for Torres on our roster and he's a garbage POS with suspension issues.

Maybe he wants to try and keep it going in the AHL or something.

 

[satbank]

I've said it before but it's PTO but still why?

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Meh, why not. We already lead the league in bottom six forwards, including most of our top six so why not add 1 more. Plus, with Brad Malone gone, who is going to injure Faulk in practice?

 

[HisIceness]

I have no idea what we're doing here. There's no room for Torres on our roster and he's a garbage POS with suspension issues.

Maybe he wants to try and keep it going in the AHL or something.

We can only hope that is what it is. This makes no sense at all, his last regular season game was what, 2014? Time to let that ship sail.

 

[flyersfan018]

It better be just a tryout and that's it. I don't want this POS in the metropolitan.

 

[HarvP19]

hahaha well i had hunch this guy was at least gonna get a PTO, I know its not saying much but hey, i was getting a lot of heat for saying the guy deserves one more chance. At least one NHL club agrees :p.

 

[JA]

I've said it before but it's PTO but still why?

His bodychecking crosses the line, but he possesses offensive skill as well as terrific offensive awareness, and he elevates his game during the postseason.

Every time he was taken out of his team's lineup for lengthy periods, it was not because of an inability to play hockey, but his tendency to injure others with dangerous checks. He is a very stocky, powerful hitter and can knock down his opponents with sheer force, but he needlessly aims for vulnerabilities in his targets.

The only question right now is whether or not he has been out of the game too long to play at the same level as he did previously. He is also a few years older now than when we last saw him play at a high level.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

It better be just a tryout and that's it. I don't want this POS in the metropolitan.

I do find this kinda funny coming from a Flyer's fan, given your own team's history.

 

[Wolfpuck]

I don't like it and I don't understand it. Even if Torres still has something left in the tank, and even if he can keep his head out of his ass and play clean, there still isn't any room for him. Maybe he's playing for a spot on the Checkers, like a couple of others have posted.

 

[Mad Brills*]

Taking out all of the suspensions, his knees aren't right, he's played 5 nhl games in the past 3 seasons.

And why add the headache when you can sign a ton of other guys who will give you similar production for less of a distraction.