PTO: anyone interested in Raffi Torres (Hurricanes offer PTO)

[Captain Controversy]

Tell me, is Raphi Torres's kids born on parole?
#40yearoldvirgin

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I don't like it and I don't understand it. Even if Torres still has something left in the tank, and even if he can keep his head out of his ass and play clean, there still isn't any room for him. Maybe he's playing for a spot on the Checkers, like a couple of others have posted.

Taking out all of the suspensions, his knees aren't right, he's played 5 nhl games in the past 3 seasons.

And why add the headache when you can sign a ton of other guys who will give you similar production for less of a distraction.

Meh. I don't see the big deal about this.

I can fully get behind the "he's a POS and I don't want him on my team" mantra. Nothing wrong with that, but set it aside for a minute.

1) He's not added or signed, he's on a PTO, that's it. The chances of him making the team are still extremely slim.

2) Re: the "there's no room". If Torres, who is old, likely broken down and a shell of his former self ends up beating out someone currently on the Canes roster, then that doesn't say a whole lot about the guy currently on the roster.

 

[Syckle78]

I do find this kinda funny coming from a Flyer's fan, given your own team's history.

Because clearly he was the GM of the team and signed whatever dirty player they had at some point.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Because clearly he was the GM of the team and signed whatever dirty player they had at some point.

C'mon, it has nothing to do with that. I used to live just outside of Philly (King of Prussia actually). A large, and I'd say vast majority of the Flyer Fans I knew back then, not only embraced, but took it as a source of pride being the fan of a team of thugs. I bet if you did a poll, Clarke would be one of the teams' most beloved players.

THAT's why I find it funny. Clearly you can see the irony in that, no?

 

[Roboturner913]

I feel old reading this thread. 12-15 years ago guys like Torres were celebrated. Yeah, they were still villains. But they were the villain that everybody wanted on their team. Shane Willis was a promising young player whose career was basically ended because Scott Stevens put an elbow into his face at full speed, but the dialogue was never "Scott Stevens is an inhuman POS piece of garbage", instead it was "rookie needs to keep his head on a swivel."

I get that the game has changed, I really do, and those changes have been for the better. But you can't demonize a guy like Torres who is 34-35 years old and is only playing the game the way that was ingrained into him forever. I am not saying he "deserves" to play in the league at this point, but you also have to understand he's also the product of the league that for a long time marketed itself on big hits and reveled in them, even when it meant that people were seriously getting hurt.

 

[Stickpucker]

The Canes have lacked grit. I recall a game last year where the Flyers were taking runs at Skinner all night and he lit em up for a hatty. Gudas was going crazy....wouldn't mind Torres going after him in that situation.

Even though the game is getting softer you need some gritty vets to watch out for the young cubs.

 

[Hawkaholic]

Willing to bet he will win a job over Bryan Bickell.

 

[bleedgreen]

I feel old reading this thread. 12-15 years ago guys like Torres were celebrated. Yeah, they were still villains. But they were the villain that everybody wanted on their team. Shane Willis was a promising young player whose career was basically ended because Scott Stevens put an elbow into his face at full speed, but the dialogue was never "Scott Stevens is an inhuman POS piece of garbage", instead it was "rookie needs to keep his head on a swivel."

I get that the game has changed, I really do, and those changes have been for the better. But you can't demonize a guy like Torres who is 34-35 years old and is only playing the game the way that was ingrained into him forever. I am not saying he "deserves" to play in the league at this point, but you also have to understand he's also the product of the league that for a long time marketed itself on big hits and reveled in them, even when it meant that people were seriously getting hurt.

I was gonna post something like this but there's no point now. Well said. I never really minded the guy and never understood the fuss about the hits, other than understanding the game has changed. I get why it changed. I just don't mind guys like this. Im old.

 

[kingpest19]

I feel old reading this thread. 12-15 years ago guys like Torres were celebrated. Yeah, they were still villains. But they were the villain that everybody wanted on their team. Shane Willis was a promising young player whose career was basically ended because Scott Stevens put an elbow into his face at full speed, but the dialogue was never "Scott Stevens is an inhuman POS piece of garbage", instead it was "rookie needs to keep his head on a swivel."

I get that the game has changed, I really do, and those changes have been for the better. But you can't demonize a guy like Torres who is 34-35 years old and is only playing the game the way that was ingrained into him forever. I am not saying he "deserves" to play in the league at this point, but you also have to understand he's also the product of the league that for a long time marketed itself on big hits and reveled in them, even when it meant that people were seriously getting hurt.

Stevens hit him with a shoulder not an elbow, that's why he isn't referred to as a pos. Funny that that hit ended his career and not the actual elbow to the face he took from Bryan Marchment the next season

 

[bleedgreen]

I think Raffi tucks his elbow pretty well on his hits, and Stevens was a little overated in his "clean shoulder" hits. I think Stevens wouldn't last more than a year or two in the current league. He would absolutely be vilified the same way Raffi is. As would Messier imo.

 

[Not So Mighty]

hahaha well i had hunch this guy was at least gonna get a PTO, I know its not saying much but hey, i was getting a lot of heat for saying the guy deserves one more chance. At least one NHL club agrees :p.

He still doesn't deserve the chance he's getting. It's not at all uncommon that people are rewarded with things they don't deserve.

I feel old reading this thread. 12-15 years ago guys like Torres were celebrated. Yeah, they were still villains. But they were the villain that everybody wanted on their team. Shane Willis was a promising young player whose career was basically ended because Scott Stevens put an elbow into his face at full speed, but the dialogue was never "Scott Stevens is an inhuman POS piece of garbage", instead it was "rookie needs to keep his head on a swivel."

I get that the game has changed, I really do, and those changes have been for the better. But you can't demonize a guy like Torres who is 34-35 years old and is only playing the game the way that was ingrained into him forever. I am not saying he "deserves" to play in the league at this point, but you also have to understand he's also the product of the league that for a long time marketed itself on big hits and reveled in them, even when it meant that people were seriously getting hurt.

Growing up in that era is not an excuse to continue the same practices. Recent evidence suggests that people suffering head trauma go on to have serious depression and some are literally killing themselves. Yet Torres continued to head hunt. I absolutely can demonize a 34 year old for refusing to change. He's an adult. He knows the league has changed as a whole. He's seen the results of his actions. Yet he continues to be ok with being one of the most dangerous guys in sports.

 

[FreshSeabass]

Willing to bet he will win a job over Bryan Bickell.

is bickell really that bad? I recall not too long ago hawks fans raving about bickell. I'd give the guy a fair shake in a new environment before completely counting him out.

 

[Mathew Barzal]

Like him or not, Torres is the type of player that can literally change the momentum of a game. He has the right mix of tenacity and skill to be a game changer even in a bottom six capacity.

I liked him in Vancouver. Never really followed him outside of it.

 

[Roboturner913]

Should old people... be given a pass...

Did I say we should "give him a pass?" Nope. I'm saying we should understand that if you want to villify guys like Torres, the league and its fans should also be looking at our own hypocrisy and recognizing that we are at least partly responsible.

Stevens hit him with a shoulder not an elbow, that's why he isn't referred to as a pos. Funny that that hit ended his career and not the actual elbow to the face he took from Bryan Marchment the next season

Semantics, it was still clearly a dirty hit and Willis was afterward a shadow of the player he had been before that. But that doesn't matter, the point is, we still judge Stevens through the lens of time, and he's viewed as one of the all-time great defensemen in NHL history, not just a cheap-shot goon who hurt people.

Growing up in that era is not an excuse to continue the same practices. Recent evidence suggests that people suffering head trauma go on to have serious depression and some are literally killing themselves. Yet Torres continued to head hunt. I absolutely can demonize a 34 year old for refusing to change. He's an adult. He knows the league has changed as a whole. He's seen the results of his actions. Yet he continues to be ok with being one of the most dangerous guys in sports.

You're assuming that he's making conscious, purposeful decisions to attempt to injure people when he is on the ice, which implies he's some sort of a psychopath who enjoys hurting others. And that may be the case, but I don't think it's fair to just assume it.

It is more reasonable to assume that his "decisions" are the result of split-second timing and his ingrained tendency to play on the edge, because he's probably been playing that way since was like 12 years old and doesn't know how to play any other way.

 

[hohosaregood]

I just think his suspension is hypocritical when there are/were some guys like Rinaldo and Carcillo who were more all around dirty and had more suspensions than Torres and got less severe punishment.

...having said that, he deserved the suspension and his knees are done. He's not a professional caliber player anymore.

 

[bigwillie]

I feel old reading this thread. 12-15 years ago guys like Torres were celebrated. Yeah, they were still villains. But they were the villain that everybody wanted on their team. Shane Willis was a promising young player whose career was basically ended because Scott Stevens put an elbow into his face at full speed, but the dialogue was never "Scott Stevens is an inhuman POS piece of garbage", instead it was "rookie needs to keep his head on a swivel."

I get that the game has changed, I really do, and those changes have been for the better. But you can't demonize a guy like Torres who is 34-35 years old and is only playing the game the way that was ingrained into him forever. I am not saying he "deserves" to play in the league at this point, but you also have to understand he's also the product of the league that for a long time marketed itself on big hits and reveled in them, even when it meant that people were seriously getting hurt.

That was my main argument earlier in the thread. The kind of hits he throws weren't just tolerated in the old NHL, they were celebrated, and many of the posters referring to him as "human garbage" now loved Stevens, Messier and a whole host of others doing the exact same thing.

The game has changed and so has everyone's understanding/perspective, but don't hate the guy for doing exactly what you wanted. Acknowledge it was a dark time, everyone's moved on, and leave it at that.

Growing up in that era is not an excuse to continue the same practices. Recent evidence suggests that people suffering head trauma go on to have serious depression and some are literally killing themselves. Yet Torres continued to head hunt. I absolutely can demonize a 34 year old for refusing to change. He's an adult. He knows the league has changed as a whole. He's seen the results of his actions. Yet he continues to be ok with being one of the most dangerous guys in sports.

I am 100% okay with Raffi Torres never playing an NHL game again. What I'm not OK with is the hate he gets from hypocritical fans who formerly loved those hits and now act like he's Hitler 2.0 for doing exactly what they used to cheer for.

And I don't agree that Torres continued to headhunt and just really didn't give a **** about head injuries. He threw a ton of hard, clean hits, but his dirty ones were literally a matter of milliseconds and centimeters. His hit on Stoll for example, he glanced off his shoulder and then made contact with his chin. I truly believe he was trying to clean up his game but muscle memory - and like Cryptic argued earlier - possibly head injuries of his own made it hard for him to truly eliminate that part of his game.

Again, I am OK with him never playing again, but we as NHL fans shouldn't pretend like Torres isn't a monster that we had a huge hand in creating.

 

[The Thin White Duke]

Did I say we should "give him a pass?" Nope. I'm saying we should understand that if you want to villify guys like Torres, the league and its fans should also be looking at our own hypocrisy and recognizing that we are at least partly responsible.

When Stevens and co were throwing elbows in the 90's, we didn't have the level of understanding about concussions and their longterm effects that we have now. It's one thing to make risky hits when you think the worst that can happen is the guy "gets his bell rung" and has to miss a game or two. I don't think anyone would be cheering those hits if they could see what they led to 10 years later.

 

[kingpest19]

Did I say we should "give him a pass?" Nope. I'm saying we should understand that if you want to villify guys like Torres, the league and its fans should also be looking at our own hypocrisy and recognizing that we are at least partly responsible.



Semantics, it was still clearly a dirty hit and Willis was afterward a shadow of the player he had been before that. But that doesn't matter, the point is, we still judge Stevens through the lens of time, and he's viewed as one of the all-time great defensemen in NHL history, not just a cheap-shot goon who hurt people.



You're assuming that he's making conscious, purposeful decisions to attempt to injure people when he is on the ice, which implies he's some sort of a psychopath who enjoys hurting others. And that may be the case, but I don't think it's fair to just assume it.

It is more reasonable to assume that his "decisions" are the result of split-second timing and his ingrained tendency to play on the edge, because he's probably been playing that way since was like 12 years old and doesn't know how to play any other way.

What was clearly dirty about the hit? Stevens had his elbow tucked and hit him shoulder to shoulder. The damage came from Willis's face hitting the ice. Stevens isn't viewed as a cheap shot goon because he had very few cheap shots in his career. He hit hard and he hit clean.

 

[tarheelhockey]

we as NHL fans shouldn't pretend like Torres isn't a monster that we had a huge hand in creating.

Yeah sorry, but I'm not going to share responsibility on this.

Torres is, for all intents and purposes, a post lockout player. His reputation as a deliberate headshot artist has occurred entirely during the period when we already knew the seriousness of the topic. This is a guy who STARTED picking up a reputation after Savard and Crosby went down, and has done nothing but build it from there.

There's no excuse for any player to be running around headshotting opponents at this point. There are hundreds of players in the NHL, many of whom are older and more rugged than Torres, and virtually none of them have managed to get themselves basically kicked out of the league for an inability to play the game without deliberately causing head injuries. I don't know or care what his actual problem is, but it exists in between his ears.

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

Jeff Marek said Toronto was in on him too, but he preferred Carolina.

 

[Mad Brills*]

He was a decent player when his knees weren't messed up.

I doubt he's a good enough skater to make a difference and chip in 5-10 goals.

 

[ThirdManIn]

Yeah sorry, but I'm not going to share responsibility on this.

Torres is, for all intents and purposes, a post lockout player. His reputation as a deliberate headshot artist has occurred entirely during the period when we already knew the seriousness of the topic. This is a guy who STARTED picking up a reputation after Savard and Crosby went down, and has done nothing but build it from there.

There's no excuse for any player to be running around headshotting opponents at this point. There are hundreds of players in the NHL, many of whom are older and more rugged than Torres, and virtually none of them have managed to get themselves basically kicked out of the league for an inability to play the game without deliberately causing head injuries. I don't know or care what his actual problem is, but it exists in between his ears.

Well said. The deflecting to Stevens, who many agree would be suspended for a lot of his highlight reel hits today, or Messier or whichever player from an era before we had as well-informed a view of brain injury as we do today just doesn't hold up. Torres may very well suffer from a healthy amount of brain trauma himself and that may influence his decision-making, but that still isn't an excuse. A mitigating factor, certainly, but not an excuse. If you are incapable of making good decisions that do not put others in harm's way you should remove yourself from situations in which harm can be and has been done, or be removed by someone whose judgment isn't as impaired. It's that simple.

Defending him against being called human garbage or whatever is one thing. I try to keep my opinion of the guy to the player on the ice and not the man off the ice. I dont know his life, and, as far as I know, he hasn't been a threat to anyone's safety outside of the rink. Trying to pick apart someone's judgment of his ability to make good choices, or lack thereof, by saying "these guys did it, too" is a ridiculously bad way to make an argument.

In a similar vein, saying that the fans share some responsibility for his actions doesn't hold up either for reasons you have already mentioned. Ultimately, they are his actions, and if his responsibility for those actions is lessened by head injury then his defense for why he should be able to continue to play surely isn't strengthened by the same. I remember reading fans who described him as a changed man after the Hossa hit. And then after the Stoll hit. If it just seemed like he had changed because he hadn't been put in a position in which he had to make a split-second decision that he simply was not capable of making, that's one thing. It's bad, but it's not as bad as him being capable of changing and simply not.

Either way, I think he needs to be done. His PTO with Carolina is whatever. If they want him there to maybe create some competition, I understand that. I just hope he isn't put into a position to show us whether he has changed, or even capable of it, if for no other reason than for the sake of whomever is in his sights when that moment arrives. The last thing I want to hear about Torres is that he is having a hearing to discuss how long a suspension he will get for another dangerous hit. Well, the last thing I want to hear about him is that he is another victim of an untimely death due to the effects of TBI, but speaking of the player on the ice and not the person off of it the last thing I want to hear is, "Torres to meet with NHL after hitting (insert player)."

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

Well said. The deflecting to Stevens, who many agree would be suspended for a lot of his highlight reel hits today, or Messier or whichever player from an era before we had as well-informed a view of brain injury as we do today just doesn't hold up.

You didn't think/know shots to the head were potentially catastrophic to an athlete's long-term health? Come on now. Any person who has ever suffered a concussion is aware of the side effects.

Every hockey fan is as much a part of the problem as the players, because we've idolized plays like the ones you describe since the game's very beginning. To try and absolve yourself of any guilt on the basis that you weren't "well-informed" is fraudulent at best.

 

[Stickpucker]

When Stevens and co were throwing elbows in the 90's, we didn't have the level of understanding about concussions and their longterm effects that we have now. It's one thing to make risky hits when you think the worst that can happen is the guy "gets his bell rung" and has to miss a game or two. I don't think anyone would be cheering those hits if they could see what they led to 10 years later.

Yes we had no idea when Stevens ended Lindros' career as to why. Or when Kariya was twitching on the ice that it was medically a bad thing.

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

Yes we had no idea when Stevens ended Lindros' career as to why. Or when Kariya was twitching on the ice that it was medically a bad thing.

Kariya just had a bad case of the sniffles. Obviously not in any way at all related to his brain being dummied.