Post-Game Talk: And that should be the end of the Leafs core

[Pookie]

@ITM your post is well thought out, intentioned and easy to read.

I want to give you a couple of things to think about though which may or may not change your view that we were almost there “because of Shanahan”

Mmm...Not so:

It was Shanahan who provided the much necessary drop by firing Carlyle and knowingly stop-gapped him with Horacek. Horacek wasn't viewed as a replacement for success, he was inserted as a warm body.

I feel you are a exhibiting that “manipulated memory” you reference here.

Shanahan was going for the playoffs. This was not a tanking season, even if McDavid was the prize.

Consider:

• Carlyle was extended to start the year
• Tim Leiweke, Shanahan’s boss said that he felt the Leafs were close to the playoffs
• Shanahan himself said after a few weeks in the seat that “this is not a gut job”
• Carlyle was fired while on a losing streak and on the verge of falling out of a playoff spot
• Shanahan had to go to the board AFTER Horacek’s horrific slide to get permission to tear it down.

All of this points to playoffs as the GOAL and therefore Shanahan’s decision to replace Randy was done with the idea that it would lead to success.

If you view if from this lens, that is another example of a miscalculation on Shanahan’s part.

Shanahan selected Babcock and LL. Those were right moves. So was Hunter and so was...Dubas. So was Matthews obviously. So was Anderson...should've taken Carter Hart in the 2nd but, draft picks aside, we all know, Shanahan was making the right moves, over and over again. Until:

I’ll wholeheartedly agree here.

I think the fact that an executive within MLSE went to the police to talk about cocaine issues around the team tells us exactly why a no facial hair old school GM and coach were brought in. And the mentor plan was a good one.

I think they have fallen into the trap of trying to placate the stars though. It’s one thing to ask a rookie to listen. It’s another to ask a $10M star player. And we have 3-4 of those.

I think he deserves the opportunity to resume his first course. I noted a couple of names in another post: Dean Lombardi and John Tortorella. That might be a good start in short order. And if that new start excludes Shanahan, then that's fine as well.

But the last thing we as fans need to do is manipulate memory to reform our present confusion. I believe nobody is as angry as Brendan Shanahan. And I think the right person at the right time is a pissed off Brendan Shanahan to lead the way back in order to go forward again.

I’m not sure how a tough coach would be received by this core.

Particularly when you have a decision to make on 34 within the next 2 years.

I’m fine if Shanahan stays on. I think he has the passion to want to make this work.

I do think though that he needs to make a decision sooner rather than later. There are 2 major decision points on the horizon. Rielly. Matthews.

He needs to either double down with his GM or go back to his (second) course.

 

[egd27]

I am super hopeful that much of this fanbase has someone else managing their money, and rock solid sensible significant others.

Ok, so at what is the "rational" point that you would consider making changes to the team's management?

 

[Stamkos4life]

Honestly, very much in that camp. At present day Dubas' biggest "mistake" (as we presently see it) is betting too much on the wrong horses to take us all the way. But other than that he's shown every sign of being a net positive long term steward of the team, that can keep us in the mix year after year, never seeing the inexorable talent drain with no reinforcements leading to an ass team with an ass prospect pool and a bleak future.

I don't know how you can watch this team for the last 3 years and think dubas is a good gm.

Dubas inherited a 105 point team. After 3 years he has nothing to show for it. And you think "he's shown every sign of being a net positive long term steward of the team..."? That is a massive lie. Dubas has made so many errors that has cost us the most promising team I have seen.

Dubas literally set this team back a decade.

 

[IPS]

Ok, so at what is the "rational" point that you would consider making changes to the team's management?

You’re talking about the day that never comes. With every early playoff exit, a new round of bullshit excuses will be cooked up to protect poor Dubas.

 

[4thline]

And the contracts he gave them has paralyzed what he can do so it is his fault
Started with the tavares contract

no one fired today?
Leafs lose again

Myth, even if those contracts were "good" in the eye's of public- whether by being a mil less or a couple years longer the present day impact is miniscule compared to the actual form of paralysis, being completely committed to them and unwilling to waver.

Marner could have been traded at any point in the last three off seasons

 

[Stamkos4life]

Who built a group that is winning? Seriously, what's going on here? Are you a Leafs fan or a Dubas fan? It's OK to not like the current custodians of a team you love. If Dubas was fired and every NHL player on the roster let go tomorrow, we'd still exist. The Leafs will still be a thing.

Please tell me why yourself and a couple of dozen others are so attached to the current GM. There has to be something. You have to actively ignore what is going on in front of your eyes for a bigger agenda I'm just not getting.

Why are you so content with losing trade after trade, not seeing any improvement from 3 years ago, signing a dozen bargain bin players every year hoping 2 may pan out? Why are Dubas fans clinging on for dear life trying to convince people everything is fine and he's going a bang up job.

I legitimately don't understand why people are desperate to cling onto Dubas and not do what's better for the organization.

It's beyond logic.

I, and many others, have been harassed and mocked for doubting dubas. The ones who care more about the gm than the team are telling us we aren't real leaf fans. What?

I thought after the embarrassing loss to the jackets his fan boys would start to wake up.

Fast forward 1.5 years and we have now also lost to the Habs and this awful start yet they still worship at the alter of KD.

It has to be a political thing. I can think of no other reason unless they aren't real leaf fans and actually just want the Leafs to fail.

 

[4thline]

I don't know how you can watch this team for the last 3 years and think dubas is a good gm.

Dubas inherited a 105 point team. After 3 years he has nothing to show for it. And you think "he's shown every sign of being a net positive long term steward of the team..."? That is a massive lie. Dubas has made so many errors that has cost us the most promising team I have seen.
.

He inherited a 105 point team built on a ridiculous shoot out record and a 25+ million dollar cap efficiency created by the ELC window, that anyone that was paying attention new was going to end.

 

[myleafs]

Dubas reminds me of JFJ. Both inexperienced kids when hired. Not a clue.

But Dubas looks worse. He's all talk, with his fake fashionable glasses and all. Just a lame duck, a deer in headlights, not a clue in hell what he's doing. He doesn't belong in hockey management, he's more concerned with his perfect hair and how well he can talk in front of a camera. Nothing about him reminds me of the sport of hockey at all. This is a kid out of his league and when he's gone it will be much more clear how he was absurdly out of place as a GM. Just another cold, corporate guy in a suit up in the office who's supposedly running this team. The players see it. And they probably think the same.

Why did the Leafs hire a rookie 32 year old non-hockey guy as their GM. Why

It all comes down to Shanahan. He doesn't strike me as a stupid guy so what is the reason he hired this new kid to run a billion dollar franchise's team

Fake glasses and only cares about his perfect hair?.....jesus

 

[Pookie]

Time to see what this team is made of.

Didn’t you see that vs Columbus?

Or Montreal?

Or the Zamboni driver game?

How is a 7-1 game 6 of 82 all of a sudden going to be a rallying point if the others weren’t?

 

[4thline]

Ok, so at what is the "rational" point that you would consider making changes to the team's management?

~20 games in if the team continues to fully shit the bed
~40 games in the team is treading water and looking like a bubble team.

He's had his three strikes on Marner, if this team (2021-22 Leafs) fails he doesn't get to fix it. But this team hasn't failed yet.

That comment was directed at people that think firing Dubas would be worthwhile in hindsight even if a hypothetical new GM came in tomorrow, the team shows them that this is an early season blip, and they decided to leave it intact.

 

[HomerJLeafs]

yes
and
trade mitch "i still play junior hockey" marner

 

[myleafs]

Dubas really does need to get fired. The patience has run out.

He should be fired because the 3 big contracts have forgotten how to play?

 

[67leafs]

M Marner is the issue…..
No level of compete
He flails around every time he’s bumped
No dig in the corners
Seems more like he’s becoming a defensive minded forward more than an offensive forward
His cocky press conference replies are getting old

man up punk, put on your big boy skates and get stuck in !

 

[Funk21]

It isn't as much about the Big 4 as many comments here think. This is a horribly imbalanced team at forward. Compare to Tampa, the Islanders, even Edmonton at this point. Balance matters in a hundred ways, including taking the pressure off the Big 4. No excuses, because those Big 4 are locked into their recent failures, but what counts as much is the "Next 5". Over the last few years, that was Hyman, Connor Brown, Kadri, Kapanen, and Johnnson. Every one of them had the potential to score 20 goals a year -- as much as Mitch scores. Who replaces those five in this downstream mess after the insane Marner contract? When that negotiation was going on, Dregs noted that players don't care what the fans think at all. Do you care now Mitch?

The next 5 now: Ritchie, Bunting, Kase, Kerfoot, and Kampf. Big problem right there, without even mentioning how bad Rielly is playing defensively and the fact that Lillegren is in over his head....

Sorry but this a bad take IMO, it’s all on the big 4 and Rielly and Muzzin. Is the team imbalanced sure but when Spezza and our third and forth lines are the only ones scoring any team will have issues. The problem is the media in Toronto treats these athletes with kid gloves. In MTL the media would be ripping them to shreds and rightfully so. The Marner contract should have been 9-9.5 million tops and AM should have been 10-11 on a 6-8 year deal. There should be an unwritten rule etched in every GM’s notepad. Unless the player is Crosby, Gretzky or McDavid you don’t give max dollars. It’s either 3 year bridge or 8 years at a favourable AAV.

Liljegren has been a kid being yo yo’D around. When he plays with Muzzin he has been fine, issue is you can’t keep pulling him in and out of the lineup. Holl on the other hand is a #6 playing with a great D partner which makes him look better than he truly is.

The issue is management has failed to use their economic power. The fact we give front loaded, signing bonus ladened contracts should reduce the AAV as present dollars are worth more than future dollars. This should have also reduced the AAV another million. Epic failure of our front office regarding the rest of our home grown talent is obvious. While Hyman didn’t deserve 5.5 I am sure we could have gotten a deal done around 4.5 at 8 years with bonus ladened deal. The Kadri deal was awful from the hop, not what we needed in Barrie and Kerfoot. Brown would have been nice to keep too. Same with Kap but we got a hell of a pick.

Hopefully this team continues to flounder, we trade anybody older than 25 or not signed long term. We take a step back and grab a high pick in a great draft year and try this again properly.

 

[Stamkos4life]

He should be fired because the 3 big contracts have forgotten how to play?

Who gave those 3 their contracts?

The never ending excuses for Kyle are insane.

 

[Stamkos4life]

That comment was directed at people that think firing Dubas would be worthwhile in hindsight even if a hypothetical new GM came in tomorrow, the team shows them that this is an early season blip, and they decided to leave it intact.

Who said this?

 

[4thline]

I see we're back to Schrodinger's elite core, where Dubas who is a bad man that ruined the most promising era of leafs hockey in recent memory, by committing to the sources of that promise and not having the foresight to see that they might be a mirage.

 

[Dragao6]

Myth, even if those contracts were "good" in the eye's of public- whether by being a mil less or a couple years longer the present day impact is miniscule compared to the actual form of paralysis, being completely committed to them and unwilling to waver.

Marner could have been traded at any point in the last three off seasons

Well tavares was 10 max for me
Marner was 9.5 max for me
Nylander even though his is ok at the time should have been a 6

thats 3.5 million for another player
The backup goalie at 4 mill didn’t help either

 

[4thline]

Who said this?

Read the thread.

 

[saltming]

Didn’t you see that vs Columbus?

Or Montreal?

Or the Zamboni driver game?

How is a 7-1 game 6 of 82 all of a sudden going to be a rallying point if the others weren’t?

The team strategy was different then VS now.
The question is if the top 6 can make the adjustment.
If they can't, then time for trades, if they can it could be quite successful

 

[Stamkos4life]

He inherited a 105 point team built on a ridiculous shoot out record and a 25+ million dollar cap efficiency created by the ELC window, that anyone that was paying attention new was going to end.

Lol the amount of excuses to downplay Lou and prop up dubas by his fan boys always brings out a chuckle.

Lou inherited a basement team and within 2 years had us back in the PO.

He leaves, dubas takes over and we stagnate.

Lou goes to a bad islanders team and brings them to the semi finals twice.

The dubas fan boys have been 100% wrong about both Lou and dubas. It's honestly shocking how they can be wrong this often.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

The proof is in the pudding (results).

 

[kevsh]

You know I'm really happy for? The guys that are no longer here.

Kapanen & Boyle (Edit: got him and Martin mixed up at first), who are now playing for a high compete team in Pittsburgh that can win even without their best players.

Andersen, who is 4-0 with a .944 save % in Carolina.

Hyman, who scored a big UFA deal in the summer and now has 5 goals in 6 games.

Brown, who led the Sens in goal scoring last year and although his team has a ways to go, they compete.

Bozak, who has a Stanley Cup ring.

JVR, who managed 43 points last year in Philly surrounded with less high-end talent.

Uncle Leo, who had back-to-back deep playoff runs with the Islanders.

The way current Leafs are playing, I get the feeling they're envious of their ex-teammates and probably wish they could join them.

 

[4thline]

Lol the amount of excuses to downplay Lou and prop up dubas by his fan boys always brings out a chuckle.

Lou inherited a basement team and within 2 years had us back in the PO.

He leaves, dubas takes over and we stagnate.

Lou goes to a bad islanders team and brings them to the semi finals twice.

The dubas fan boys have been 100% wrong about both Lou and dubas. It's honestly shocking how they can be wrong this often.

A. Where are the Islanders in the standings right now?
B. It was actually 1 year from Lou's hiring to being back in the playoffs, with 95% of the turnaround being players already in the system or no brainer 1st overall picks.

 

[Eye Test]

It's beyond logic.

I, and many others, have been harassed and mocked for doubting dubas. The ones who care more about the gm than the team are telling us we aren't real leaf fans. What?

I thought after the embarrassing loss to the jackets his fan boys would start to wake up.

Fast forward 1.5 years and we have now also lost to the Habs and this awful start yet they still worship at the alter of KD.

It has to be a political thing. I can think of no other reason unless they aren't real leaf fans and actually just want the Leafs to fail.

I read a ton on this board but rarely post. I agree with what you are saying with one difference. I actually think Dubas is a bright guy and is good at scouting/evaluating talent BUT his philosophy on hockey is wrong and obviously the big contracts for everyone not named Matthews/Nylander were not good.

Doesn’t matter who you have on your team if you play soft stick check perimeter hockey, you’re team isn’t going to create many notable turnovers, not going to make them think about getting hit constantly and make an error, no fear in the other team for running your guys which leads to the skilled guys playing smaller, no goalie screens leading to leafs getting 40 shots on goal but no goals (sound familiar?), no crashing the net every play hard leading to tons of perimeter shots and no goals, no accountability for ice time based on performance, etc etc etc it’s literally hockey 101 you learn when you’re like 8 in the GTHL. This doesn’t even look like a team, I miss the tucker years where even if we weren’t as skilled we fought for every inch and gave it our all.

The style the leafs play will not win and it’s a awfully boring/frustrating product to watch. Even our “hits” besides the Sandin one and maybe a few of simmonds are just hugs and don’t actually cause turnovers/force errors.