Post-Game Talk: And that should be the end of the Leafs core

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I think a lot of "Dubasites" are really just fans who assume and fear the absolute worst; that any new GM will take us back to a 2005-2015 decade of darkness type era where we miss the playoffs way more than make.

I actually think they had hope.

that there was a secret formula to winning hockey games and all it would take is some coding and stat based decisions.

it’s clear that either:

1. Every team has the same idea so there is no competitive advantage

2. Stats aren’t really highly correlated to winning

3. Dubas isn’t very good at using them to affect decisions or on ice play

maybe a combination of all.

bottom line, it’s been a failure.

is there any reason... any at all... to think the future will change if we do the same thing?
 
It isn't as much about the Big 4 as many comments here think. This is a horribly imbalanced team at forward. Compare to Tampa, the Islanders, even Edmonton at this point. Balance matters in a hundred ways, including taking the pressure off the Big 4. No excuses, because those Big 4 are locked into their recent failures, but what counts as much is the "Next 5". Over the last few years, that was Hyman, Connor Brown, Kadri, Kapanen, and Johnnson. Every one of them had the potential to score 20 goals a year -- as much as Mitch scores. Who replaces those five in this downstream mess after the insane Marner contract? When that negotiation was going on, Dregs noted that players don't care what the fans think at all. Do you care now Mitch?

The next 5 now: Ritchie, Bunting, Kase, Kerfoot, and Kampf. Big problem right there, without even mentioning how bad Rielly is playing defensively and the fact that Lillegren is in over his head....
 
I just wished the threads talked about the game and not about Dubas every loss.

These past two games Toronto has gotten smashed, poor work ethic and bad bad plays with the puck. A trend I have noticed when Toronto is playing poorly is they are constantly getting caught on 3-2 and 2-1. I'm not sure if everyone isn't on the same page in the o-zone or what it is. Toronto played very poorly theres no doubt about that, but 4 of the goals scored against us went off of our own players and into the net, unlucky in that sense.

Its super early in the season, so there's no reason to panic but how these past 6 games have gone, its a worrying trend. Teams that play a hard-nose grinding game will always have the advantage over Toronto.

That’s a fair point.

We’ve seen the core players tune out the coach before.

Worth wondering have they now quit on Keefe?
 
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I actually think they had hope.

that there was a secret formula to winning hockey games and all it would take is some coding and stat based decisions.

it’s clear that either:

1. Every team has the same idea so there is no competitive advantage

2. Stats aren’t really highly correlated to winning

3. Dubas isn’t very good at using them to affect decisions or on ice play

maybe a combination of all.

bottom line, it’s been a failure.

is there any reason... any at all... to think the future will change if we do the same thing?
Some of them are like that for sure, but I've seen many Dubasites constantly challenge those who want him gone saying "Well who would you replace him with then?" as if they don't think there's any other names out there.
 
I think a lot of "Dubasites" are really just fans who assume and fear the absolute worst; that any new GM will take us back to a 2005-2015 decade of darkness type era where we miss the playoffs way more than make.

Dubas screwed up with his contracts and with bringing back the same team. However, each individual move has been pretty good. He doesn't draft fridges on skates after the 1st round, he has acquired some nice prospects over a few short years from later rounds. His trades have generally been pretty good, outside of the core 4 he signs fair contracts. It could get a lot worse.

I think the next GM will be experienced with a cup.. I.E Dinosaur. MLSE just paid out a LOT for these contracts, I don't think it will be easy to convince them to sell it all and rebuild. They will want someone to retool on the fly, I can see someone like Ron Francis coming in, who did it with the Pens. He is going to sell the farm, and maybe even someone like Sandin, for a in the prime player to win now. They are going to sign guys like Gudbranson who are useless plugs but throw a hit while being a - each game.

So I understand that completely. Best thing we can hope is our scouting stays in place and we sell off the core for 5-6 firsts over the next few years and some blue chip prospects. Could be completely rebuilt by 2025.
 
Some of them are like that for sure, but I've seen many Dubasites constantly challenge those who want him gone saying "Well who would you replace him with then?" as if they don't think there's any other names out there.

Totally fair point. I’ve had many a one sided discussion with these folks.

HF Boards really isn’t a good barometer of public opinion though. I find our forum has a more than normal share of really opinionated and outside of reality posters.

Those who support Maxime Bernier... for both his politics and because they read on a facebook that he’s a goalie.
 
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So you feel that having half your cap tied up now in 3 centers and a winger will be better than having it tied up in 2 centers and 2 wingers?
Sorry, I don’t agree. This team is built wrong. Guaranteed we won’t win anything while half the cap is tied up on 4 forwards.
JT will be a winger before you know it.
 
Dubas screwed up with his contracts and with bringing back the same team. However, each individual move has been pretty good. He doesn't draft fridges on skates after the 1st round, he has acquired some nice prospects over a few short years from later rounds. His trades have generally been pretty good, outside of the core 4 he signs fair contracts. It could get a lot worse.

I think the next GM will be experienced with a cup.. I.E Dinosaur. MLSE just paid out a LOT for these contracts, I don't think it will be easy to convince them to sell it all and rebuild. They will want someone to retool on the fly, I can see someone like Ron Francis coming in, who did it with the Pens. He is going to sell the farm, and maybe even someone like Sandin, for a in the prime player to win now. They are going to sign guys like Gudbranson who are useless plugs but throw a hit while being a - each game.

So I understand that completely. Best thing we can hope is our scouting stays in place and we sell off the core for 5-6 firsts over the next few years and some blue chip prospects. Could be completely rebuilt by 2025.
Yeah that's a good point. For anyone convinced that the new GM will just come in and tear it down, MLSE will probably be embarrassed at the fact they let snake oil salesman Shanny sell them a "rebuild" the first time around. There's no way MLSE is authorizing back to back rebuilds for back to back administrations considering it took them forever to authorize the first one in the first place.

Other than that, the rest of your response makes my point. No real appraisal of Dubas, just basically saying "it could be worse" in a lot of areas.
 
Dubas screwed up with his contracts and with bringing back the same team. However, each individual move has been pretty good. He doesn't draft fridges on skates after the 1st round, he has acquired some nice prospects over a few short years from later rounds. His trades have generally been pretty good, outside of the core 4 he signs fair contracts. It could get a lot worse.

I think the next GM will be experienced with a cup.. I.E Dinosaur. MLSE just paid out a LOT for these contracts, I don't think it will be easy to convince them to sell it all and rebuild. They will want someone to retool on the fly, I can see someone like Ron Francis coming in, who did it with the Pens. He is going to sell the farm, and maybe even someone like Sandin, for a in the prime player to win now. They are going to sign guys like Gudbranson who are useless plugs but throw a hit while being a - each game.

So I understand that completely. Best thing we can hope is our scouting stays in place and we sell off the core for 5-6 firsts over the next few years and some blue chip prospects. Could be completely rebuilt by 2025.
People often mention his trades have been pretty good, but I'm struggling to think of many that are actually positive for the Leafs (I'm sure I'm missing some).

So for good we have:
Muzzin for 1st, Grundstrum, Durzi
Campbell and Clifford for Moore 3rd, 3rd

Are there any others?
 
I got my doubts about that.

Shanahan was the guy in charge with the Horachek-Give-A-Crap-Meter debacle.

Shanahan was the guy in charge when the organization was in chaos.

That changed when Babcock, Hunter, Lamereillo were brought into the organization.

Since then, those experienced hockey people gone, the organization is sliding again into embarrassment.

Shanahan is still the guy in charge, who handed the job to Dubas.

Shanahan cannot fire Dubas, because if he fires Dubas, he should hand in his resignation at the same time.

This seems like a complete mess, that only a complete housing cleaning can be an adequate starting point from which to address the shortcomings of the team.

As fans, we have seen enough to know we cannot trust Shanahan to do anything right. But the level of management above him, may not feel the same way.

Mmm...Not so:

It was Shanahan who provided the much necessary drop by firing Carlyle and knowingly stop-gapped him with Horacek. Horacek wasn't viewed as a replacement for success, he was inserted as a warm body.

Remember, the month preceding Carlyle's firing, the club went on a heater. In an interview after a barn-burner in which a reporter sang the team's praises CARLYLE rang the alarm bell and pointed to a systemic problem that would shortly thereafter prove him correct and fired.

Salutegate and it's culture was allowed to rot before it was moved. Then:

Shanahan selected Babcock and LL. Those were right moves. So was Hunter and so was...Dubas. So was Matthews obviously. So was Anderson...should've taken Carter Hart in the 2nd but, draft picks aside, we all know, Shanahan was making the right moves, over and over again. Until:

Lou Lamoriello was allowed to walk and Dubas was promoted when Lamoriello was allowed to walk. Outside of LL walking, the Dubas promotion wasn't an uninformed one. He won an AHL championship. The same logic holds that Jon Cooper's success in the AHL might translate to the NHL, and ever the same has been held in recent memory that graduation is the intention behind the farm system design.

The fork in the road is signing John Tavares and it's horrific crossroads cascading to our foundational future. Don Cherry amongst others was the first to note the misstep. Not from an unforeseen financial impediment brought on by a cap restricted by an unforeseen global pandemic, but by now discarded hockey axioms like alpha dogs and dressing room culture.

When the capology of Dubas' braintrust crumbled, it crumbled under unforeseen events. That doesn't matter because those that have been paid are paid irrespective of the politics of the world and as such have the same playing field like AHL Pittsburgh teams running roughshod 7-1. And what matters now is an informed perspective that says: New information brings new conclusions.

I'd like to see what Shanahan does to right a ship he had so smoothly charted a course for in the beginning. His approach was perfect. We were right there. And we got there because of Shanahan, not in spite of him. Now we're in a place because of Shanahan's decisions made in a different environment and now in an environment in which he did not make those decisions.

I think he deserves the opportunity to resume his first course. I noted a couple of names in another post: Dean Lombardi and John Tortorella. That might be a good start in short order. And if that new start excludes Shanahan, then that's fine as well.

But the last thing we as fans need to do is manipulate memory to reform our present confusion. I believe nobody is as angry as Brendan Shanahan. And I think the right person at the right time is a pissed off Brendan Shanahan to lead the way back in order to go forward again.
 
The posters who might sound the most radical to you actually see clear and cold, as is needed in business and to succeed financially. I bet most of them have parlayed this mental maturity into a decent portfolio at this stage of their lives.

The drink-the-koolaid rah-rah expressions of blind cult following that you seem to be looking for come from younger fans who haven't had the 50+ years of bitter Leaf experience to temper their naive enthusiasm, God bless them.


No, no, God bless the the 50+ year set who have been following the same losing team for ever, they are truly the special ones.
 
I do think there is a problem in the room, like some others here. And I think the problem starts with Marner and Matthews, who seem to be in their own world. Do you ever see them talking to others on the bench? That incident with Matthews a few years was not a joke; it was an indicator. Confronting a black female security guard to scare her? Everyone rushed to cover for him, but it was beyond stupid. I think there is a character problem at the top, and it matters. These guys are assistant captains. What are all of these new guys thinking?
 
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Can you please explain why you're so pro-Dubas. Honestly, I'm shocked that they're still fans that are happy with the way things are set up. What am I not seeing here?

Don't like everything he's done. Off the top of my head the Mrazek deal this summer was shortsighted satisficing with limited long term upside (if the tandem works we can't afford it moving forward because of precedent to Campbell). I don't like his stubborness with Moore on the Marlies. I do like what he's done with drafting, developing, and pro and amateur recruitment. I think he's shown all the signs of building a strong long term program from top to bottom. I think that along with continuity is a better bet to bring a cup to Toronto than anything that could have been done over the last three years. That even though he's made some tactical misteps the overall asset base/ organizational health of the team has stayed strong - which looking league wide is rarely the case. I think the Matthews situation/contract is one of the most misunderstood and unfairly maligned moves in the NHL in recent years. All that being said, I'd say I'm less "Pro-Dubas" than I am "anti-reactionary dumbass, anti-petty grudge holder", pro-long term steadiness. Every argument for firing Dubas now would have seen Yzerman fired in 2013. Sakic in ~2015. Did see Armstrong fired before his program took shape in Dallas, and the people that got to take advantage of his efforts squander them and mire the team in purgatory, to watch him do it again in St.Louis and be rewarded for their patience.

That being said, while I admire his conviction in sticking to core. His downfall (if he falls) will be his handling of Mitch Marner. He should have held firm on his contract, then should have traded him in each of the last two offseasons. He doesn't get another chance, and lives and dies on this season.

But this season hasn't happened yet.
 
That’s a fair point.

We’ve seen the core players tune out the coach before.

Worth wondering have they now quit on Keefe?
I imagine two of them have, after the way he called them out after the loss to the Sharks. But I say good on Keefe to do that. This core is coddled and entitled, and I would think it has to affect the other players.
 
I think that’s a good trade but I’d do JT for him tbh. Marner has so much in him and our wing depth is trash. I know the blame is on Marner right now but I really think Marner will figure this out.
To bad Buffalo wouldn't. They are not trading for an over the hill Tavares whos’s best days are long behind him for Eichel
 
I think a lot of "Dubasites" are really just fans who assume and fear the absolute worst; that any new GM will take us back to a 2005-2015 decade of darkness type era where we miss the playoffs way more than make.

Honestly, very much in that camp. At present day Dubas' biggest "mistake" (as we presently see it) is betting too much on the wrong horses to take us all the way. But other than that he's shown every sign of being a net positive long term steward of the team, that can keep us in the mix year after year, never seeing the inexorable talent drain with no reinforcements leading to an ass team with an ass prospect pool and a bleak future.
 
Current state of leafs nation
Tire Fire Let It Burn GIF - Tire Fire Fire Let It Burn - Discover & Share GIFs

I like the adversity. Time to see what this team is made of.


They are trying a new offensive strategy, the spezza line gets it, the 3rd line is ok at it but the top 6 needs to figure it out. Stop looking for the pretty plays and start seeing the dirty plays. Filter the puck to the danger zones and make sure you have a man there, then join in and bang and fight that pucker into the net.

Simple but has not been their playing style ever.


This is where you separate the boys from the men as they say.


This could be the best thing for the core. I'm hoping that by game 20 we have it figured out.


That said last night was a fluke. What was it? 4 goals off deflection?
 
Eichel could play both wing and centre, big and strong, could skate like the wind, and has a great shot...and yeah, he could also pass the puck...and he's cheaper. You could have Matthews and Eichel as your centres and move Tavares to the wing. Marner is so limited for his $11 million caphit.
Fair enough. So we’re okay without anyone for the next 6 months? I like the sound of what you’re saying I just worry about this season but hey long term success is what’s important
 
Honestly, very much in that camp. At present day Dubas' biggest "mistake" (as we presently see it) is betting too much on the wrong horses to take us all the way. But other than that he's shown every sign of being a net positive long term steward of the team, that can keep us in the mix year after year, never seeing the inexorable talent drain with no reinforcements leading to an ass team with an ass prospect pool and a bleak future.
And the contracts he gave them has paralyzed what he can do so it is his fault
Started with the tavares contract

no one fired today?
Leafs lose again
 
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Fire everyone, take the A off Marner and give it to Spezza. Marner should be sitting in the press box to be quite honest with you, he is routinely the worst player on the ice. I cannot explain how much I hate this kid, I was his biggest supporter since his days in London. I was going nuts when we drafted him and then his next couple years. Since he bent Kyle Dumbass over for that stupid 11m deal he has not given a single shit about competing. I'm still confused how Dumbass got bent over from a position of power, you either make him sit or trade him if his requests are that stupid. Even worse he had the 2 unsigned RFA pitching to JT to come to Toronto.
 
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