Analyzing Management and Development

[Eagle Fang]

How they are managing the players is beyond frustrating. Haven't looked at Kopitar's last game's ice time minutes but I believe the games before he was getting a lot of defensive minutes, that shouldn't be happening since we got Danault. I'm not liking TM decisions, I don't know what the hell Strum is still doing here (PP has been shit for years) Blake needs to figure out what the hell to do because what's going on the ice isn't working.

It's very frustrating for sure. Subscribe to AHL TV and watch Ontario. It's much more entertaining

 

[LAKings88]

In Kaliyev's case, it kind of isn't though. He's our best goal scoring prospect. He's playing with Lizotte and Lemieux. Bless their souls, but it's not exactly a fit there. I understand it's probably about sheltering him, but does it make more sense to have him play with say Kopitar, a top 2-way center capable of off-setting some of Kaliyev's shortcomings while also putting him in a position more suited to his strengths? TMac tried, but 2 periods of trying before calling it quits on that experiment is a bit harsh.

I hope he gets another shot. I would hope these guys evaluate more than two periods. Lines are fluid and changing. Right now, that line is complementary to each other. We will see if it changes. I like that he is at least getting pp time.

 

[Schmooley]

I guess that is my sticking point on some of this and the reason for the thread. I’ve been trying to listen to podcast and first hand accounts more so lately. Fans are knowledgeable and it’s ok to criticize, even good to make an organization accountable. These guys are human and deal with so much we are not privy of. Dustin Brown is a good example. We all may want him playing down but his service to the team and earned him some clout. That is a different situation in a locker room than on a video game lobby trying to make your dream team.

I don’t want to pretend to know the reasons behind every decision but I do wish I could get a candid discussion with TMac or Blake at times. The whole point of this thread was not to foster more negativity. My opinions don’t outweigh any other ones. Just think there is often more to a situation than we know. There are decisions I didn’t like, mostly letting go of Futa and Stothers but I can only speculate. I do think this team is committed to integrating skill and youth. I do think they want the playoffs this year.
I’m trying to be patient for these guys to step in take the reigns one day.

You think you are a better fan and saying that we must play video games or want a fantasy lineup because Kupari shouldnt be punished for his play next to Moore and Brown who have been horrid this season without any accountability. I dont have video games or fantasy hockey. I dont have answers even. I do love hockey and the Kings and thats all its based on. But why is it fantasy to think guys like Brown and Moore are getting the benefit of the doubt and the rookies get little to none? Why is it even considered negative to think that?

 

[Schmooley]

I guess that is my sticking point on some of this and the reason for the thread. I’ve been trying to listen to podcast and first hand accounts more so lately. Fans are knowledgeable and it’s ok to criticize, even good to make an organization accountable. These guys are human and deal with so much we are not privy of. Dustin Brown is a good example. We all may want him playing down but his service to the team and earned him some clout. That is a different situation in a locker room than on a video game lobby trying to make your dream team.

I don’t want to pretend to know the reasons behind every decision but I do wish I could get a candid discussion with TMac or Blake at times. The whole point of this thread was not to foster more negativity. My opinions don’t outweigh any other ones. Just think there is often more to a situation than we know. There are decisions I didn’t like, mostly letting go of Futa and Stothers but I can only speculate. I do think this team is committed to integrating skill and youth. I do think they want the playoffs this year.
I’m trying to be patient for these guys to step in take the reigns one day.

Also you can talk about veteran lockerroom clout all you want but it doesnt mean much when the team has come out lifeless for years now. They have been a lot better this year in that sense but they also had to bring in some guys. Sutter was a good coach and questioned Browns leadership so not sure why it bothers you 10 years later that some fans do. Some negativity is warranted and some isnt. I think the ticket prices and low attendance show that more people are not buying it right now.
I do think on paper they can make the playoffs and even win a round. But they are not a perfect team and you shouldnt be mad when folks point it out.

 

[LAKings88]

You think you are a better fan and saying that we must play video games or want a fantasy lineup because Kupari shouldnt be punished for his play next to Moore and Brown who have been horrid this season without any accountability. I dont have video games or fantasy hockey. I dont have answers even. I do love hockey and the Kings and thats all its based on. But why is it fantasy to think guys like Brown and Moore are getting the benefit of the doubt and the rookies get little to none? Why is it even considered negative to think that?

That’s a two way street tho. I’ve already said that the organization doesn’t see Kupari at wing, it was in a podcast recently can’t remember which. You don’t even acknowledge that. So why would they put him browns spot. Dude is a center on a stacked center team. This is what frustrates me. What, they just hate Kupari and don’t want him to benefit the team?

 

[Schmooley]

That’s a two way street tho. I’ve already said that the organization doesn’t see Kupari at wing, it was in a podcast recently can’t remember which. You don’t even acknowledge that. So why would they put him browns spot. Dude is a center on a stacked center team. This is what frustrates me. What, they just hate Kupari and don’t want him to benefit the team?

Not sure what you mean? I didnt say anything about Kupari on wing.
If they want Lias in shouldnt he come in on the left wing in place of Moore?

 

[LAKings88]

Also you can talk about veteran lockerroom clout all you want but it doesnt mean much when the team has come out lifeless for years now. They have been a lot better this year in that sense but they also had to bring in some guys. Sutter was a good coach and questioned Browns leadership so not sure why it bothers you 10 years later that some fans do. Some negativity is warranted and some isnt. I think the ticket prices and low attendance show that more people are not buying it right now.
I do think on paper they can make the playoffs and even win a round. But they are not a perfect team and you shouldnt be mad when folks point it out.

I don’t care if you question him, all I’m saying is those decisions are impactful. The way people are treated is impactful. They gave Brown a shot and have now moved him down the lineup like many have wanted. To me, it seems like they are validating what people see. Now it seems the narrative is to jettison him completely. Easier said than done in reality.

 

[Herby]

You asked why. I'm telling you why.

And again, if the Kings can only develop top line players with top picks, then that further reinforces development is a question mark.

Yes, higher caliber players get picked earlier. But diamonds in the rough are always available later.

The lack of top line forwards being developed in the pipeline means either the scouting needs work or development does.

Other teams further along have younger players playing bigger roles.

The expectation should have been that by now we have an impact player from one of our four center picks between 2017-2020. Other teams have done it, it was not an unreasonable expectation. I think it's just the achilles heel of this scouting staff, they are really good at finding solid players but they have had numerous chances to land the type of player that maybe can take the torch from 11 and 8 and just have not been able to. You can't judge drafts by how many Nick Shore's and Austin Wagner's you draft, that is why I argue the Kings drafting for much of the past 10 years has not been good. Hopefully QB comes out guns firing when he gets back to give us some hope, but its tough to turn on the tv every night and see some of these other young players dominating, especially the two on Detroit.

This was another reason I was really hoping for a blow up this season and next, clear out the anchor contracts and hopefully get a couple of no-brainer type picks in the draft. I still don't think we have enough high end talent to win a cup with this group.

The Kings top picks in the 17, 18, 19 and 20 drafts, all centers, are competing for one 3rd line center job over the next few years.

They won't be given the offensive wingers to augment their game, even worse if they decide to give one of them the 4c job.

Its not just letting them grow, its about pigeon holing them into spots not suited to maturing into their strengths simply for the sake of being a playoff team now.

Its playing both ends against each other, you can't win now because the kids aren't solid enough to contribute to a contender, and you aren't allowing for the best organic growth because nobody is allowed to work on their strengths as much as their weaknesses.

Kaliyev is a perfect example. Shot is NHL quality, but he isn't put in the best place to use it because pointless vets like Brown and Athanasiou are getting primes opponents on a team that isn't playoff caliber anyway. Put the kid into a position to succeed while developing.

Drafting four centers in a row was pathetic and inexcusable mismanagement by the Kings. The Danault signing was another black hole move, but my guess is the Kings have probably written off Vilardi, his skating and compete level are just not NHL level. And many on here just excused the picks saying "(Insert center prospect) can just switch to the wing" like its a super easy thing to do. The Kings issues on the wing and blueline are a direct result of going C four years in a row.

There are no scoring wingers because the organization has neglected drafting those types of players for as long as most of these scouts have been here. They bring in an empty stats bad team player like AA and a declining asset in Arvidsson, no different than Martin Straka and Jozef Stumpel (the 2nd time). Danault is a quality player but he's the type of guy a contending team should have signed, not a young, bad team that has a #1 center signed for three more years and an organization who used Top 5 picks back to back years on centers. You say that there are no openings for youth, and you have a point, but keep in mind almost everyone cheered on the Danault and Arvidsson signings because trying to get a wildcard spot this year was more desirable than trying to suck and increase the chances of winning the cup in 4-5 years. But Blake and TM may also know their jobs are on the line and Danault and Arvidsson help them try and overachieve and get a wildcard more than Kaliyev and Turcotte do this season.

JAD is not on the roster. Byfield is not (currently) on the roster. Kaliyev is getting less minutes than anyone on the roster. Bjornfot and Anderson are beauties and deserving of their roles--I'm glad we all agree there. Vilardi is not on the roster. Kupari is next to Kaliyev with fewest minutes on the roster.

"playing them in games" is a pretty low bar for guys drafted as supposedly top six talents, and playing them in depth roles and wondering why they aren't doing more is self sabotage.

They might not be 'anti-youth' but they're very 'anti use offensive players in a place to use their offense.'

I'm not going to bother arguing with anyone else in this thread as there's plenty to talk about elsewhere, but this forum is funny. I spent years upon years being relentlessly positive and took shit for it, now I go after Todd McLellan and I'm 'not a fan'. I haven't complained about the players themselves outside of Brown, haven't even complained much about Blake. It's solely about coaching/usage/development and backed up with myriad examples but that makes me a bad fan.

Edit: this is extra cute coming from someone who has actively argued with me about prospect upside and that I'm seeing them all with rose colored goggles.

Is this post directed at me? When have I ever said anyone isn't a fan? Trust me, I've been told more on this board that "You're not a fan" than you have.

Yes, I think in general you have been overly optimistic with the Kings prospects over the years. Like I mentioned earlier, we should have had an impact player by now with all these picks. I'm guessing you will say Raymond and Seider would be in Ontario, and that is your right to think that. I bring up the games played by young players because young players have been given chances but no one has really grabbed the bull by the horns and forced themselves into a big role like some guys on other teams have.

I also don't really see how someone who was so on board with the bringing in of the black hole veterans and was against tanking is now disappointed the young players aren't being given more opportunity. I said from the start that overpaying for a defensive stopper on a team that can't score and bringing in a declining 40 point winger hoping he can get back to levels from three years ago was a mistake. I'd rather have the kids up, losing a lot of games, tanking for a high pick but learning how to play in the league. I don't know what kind of roster construction you expected after the black hole moves this summer.

 

[LAKings88]

Not sure what you mean? I didnt say anything about Kupari on wing.
If they want Lias in shouldnt he come in on the left wing in place of Moore?

I don’t know man. Maybe they want Moore to work his game out. A different look up the middle. Maybe it will be Moore next game and Kupari is back in. Maybe they want to see Lias at center. Decisions are made for lots of reasons. Doesn’t have to be nefarious or mean that Kupari’s career is over.

 

[Schmooley]

I don’t care if you question him, all I’m saying is those decisions are impactful. The way people are treated is impactful. They gave Brown a shot and have now moved him down the lineup like many have wanted. To me, it seems like they are validating what people see. Now it seems the narrative is to jettison him completely. Easier said than done in reality.

I think because his play now leads to Kupari scratched or sent down. And he stays in the lineup. Everyone was really talking up kupari then all of a sudden look at the threads once hes put with brown and moore. Just a little while ago someone at the jets game was saying everyone in the winnipeg crowd was drooling over kupari. Now hes not good enough and needs time to develop more. Its strange thats all.

 

[LAKings88]

The expectation should have been that by now we have an impact player from one of our four center picks between 2017-2020. Other teams have done it, it was not an unreasonable expectation. I think it's just the achilles heel of this scouting staff, they are really good at finding solid players but they have had numerous chances to land the type of player that maybe can take the torch from 11 and 8 and just have not been able to. You can't judge drafts by how many Nick Shore's and Austin Wagner's you draft, that is why I argue the Kings drafting for much of the past 10 years has not been good. Hopefully QB comes out guns firing when he gets back to give us some hope, but its tough to turn on the tv every night and see some of these other young players dominating, especially the two on Detroit.

This was another reason I was really hoping for a blow up this season and next, clear out the anchor contracts and hopefully get a couple of no-brainer type picks in the draft. I still don't think we have enough high end talent to win a cup with this group.



Drafting four centers in a row was pathetic and inexcusable mismanagement by the Kings. The Danault signing was another black hole move, but my guess is the Kings have probably written off Vilardi, his skating and compete level are just not NHL level. And many on here just excused the picks saying "(Insert center prospect) can just switch to the wing" like its a super easy thing to do. The Kings issues on the wing and blueline are a direct result of going C four years in a row.

There are no scoring wingers because the organization has neglected drafting those types of players for as long as most of these scouts have been here. They bring in an empty stats bad team player like AA and a declining asset in Arvidsson, no different than Martin Straka and Jozef Stumpel (the 2nd time). Danault is a quality player but he's the type of guy a contending team should have signed, not a young, bad team that has a #1 center signed for three more years and an organization who used Top 5 picks back to back years on centers. You say that there are no openings for youth, and you have a point, but keep in mind almost everyone cheered on the Danault and Arvidsson signings because trying to get a wildcard spot this year was more desirable than trying to suck and increase the chances of winning the cup in 4-5 years. But Blake and TM may also know their jobs are on the line and Danault and Arvidsson help them try and overachieve and get a wildcard more than Kaliyev and Turcotte do this season.



Is this post directed at me? When have I ever said anyone isn't a fan? Trust me, I've been told more on this board that "You're not a fan" than you have.

Yes, I think in general you have been overly optimistic with the Kings prospects over the years. Like I mentioned earlier, we should have had an impact player by now with all these picks. I'm guessing you will say Raymond and Seider would be in Ontario, and that is your right to think that. I bring up the games played by young players because young players have been given chances but no one has really grabbed the bull by the horns and forced themselves into a big role like some guys on other teams have.

I also don't really see how someone who was so on board with the bringing in of the black hole veterans and was against tanking is now disappointed the young players aren't being given more opportunity. I said from the start that overpaying for a defensive stopper on a team that can't score and bringing in a declining 40 point winger hoping he can get back to levels from three years ago was a mistake. I'd rather have the kids up, losing a lot of games, tanking for a high pick but learning how to play in the league. I don't know what kind of roster construction you expected after the black hole moves this summer.

Drafting is an interesting debate. The Kings have chosen a type often over another type. Again, the fruits won’t be known for awhile.

 

[Schmooley]

I don’t know man. Maybe they want Moore to work his game out. A different look up the middle. Maybe it will be Moore next game and Kupari is back in. Maybe they want to see Lias at center. Decisions are made for lots of reasons. Doesn’t have to be nefarious or mean that Kupari’s career is over.

Yea I dont know either. Thats why we are on here discussing it right my man?!

 

[LAKings88]

Yea I dont know either. Thats why we are on here discussing it right my man?!

True that, I feel your frustration.

 

[Bandit]

Im not worried about Kupari or Kaliyev.

Kupari was never a big time scoring prospect. He has skill and speed but he is almost in that Vilardi zone tho. Seems like he had trouble transitioning to the wing. What happens when Byfield slots in? 4th line center? Not sure what his future is honestly. I still see JAD as an ideal 4th line center but maybe Kupari can become that. I guess Kopi won’t be around forever.

Kaliyev could get a shot on the top wing but do you bump Kempe or Arvidsson? RV hasn’t looked all that special to me, maybe he needs to have a different look on another line? Arthur seems like Toffoli 2.0.

I’m not worried about Kupari or Kaliyev either. I’m worried about the bozos above them that control their destiny.

 

[DoktorJeep]

I think the uptick in negativity is coming from more fans realizing that the team is several years way from sniffing the playoffs. Quite a few drank the koolaid and believed that the vets could lead this team back to respectability with some key acquisitions and one/two prospects taking a major step. After witnessing the inconsistent at best on ice product, those folks have woken up angry and feeling roofied.

Who knows where this team will finish. Scraping into the playoffs on the backs of a bunch of 28+ years olds doesn’t scream a deep run three years down the road. Dissecting draft picks and depth roster moves is a fruitless exercise on a team spending near to the cap. Results are a team is close to .530 after blowing cash and suffering one major setback with the Doughty injury. And this achievement is supported by underperforming depth guys on their 2nd / 3rd / 4th pro contracts and prospects who mostly project to be role players.

The frustration is caused by a worry that the true ceiling of this incarnation is an also ran. It’s a return to the Palffy / Stumpel era where resources are expended but the team is fatally shallow after the top 2-3 guys. Lip service is paid to drafting and investments at the AHL level, but development is not the leader and the NHL coach is a hack.

Next season, there are 4 roster spots potentially open if all UFAs depart. 2 forwards and 2 defenseman, each an every day player when healthy. It’s also just under $15.5M off the cap. A chunk of that goes to RFAs, which the Kings have 11 of from NHL / AHL players who have appeared on the big club’s roster. So there is little room for a future big acquisition absent contracts going out the door. So you’re facing a situation where multiple prospects need to make major strides in order to offset losses plus aging while propelling the team forward. Almost one quarter of this season is done and so far no candidates have emerged.

Staring down 1-3 more seasons of irrelevance is hard to stomach at this point. Only the most patient can pin their hopes on high draft picks and strides shown by prospects at amateur levels. But they will reach a point of exhaustion, which accelerates in the absence of top 10 picks. And there will always be fans who zero in on bright spots and excuses to explain away a lack of results. But it’s been shown those opinions are doomed to be outliers when the axe is swung. The only question in my mind is when that happens for this management team.

 

[LAKings88]

I’m not worried about Kupari or Kaliyev either. I’m worried about the bozos above them that control their destiny.

 

[King'sPawn]

Again YOU are bringing up fifteen years. Since Blake has had the gm title who was his first pick, Kupari?

JAD saw time on the team has not been jettisoned yet. Still highly talked about two days ago by Wrobo.

Kupari and Kaliyev are up but it’s not good enough.

It seems that you just don’t want to credit anything to BLuc.

There is a glutton of new forwards to filter and decipher through. Only so many spots to go around. I feel like we are talking in circles. You act like the Kings are willfully trying to sabotage their prospects. It makes no sense. A management member recently said Kupari had trouble adjusting to wing but hey let’s be critical of them for not putting him on the wing. I just wonder if blind rage has become the main influence on some of these criticisms.

Goodness.

The premise of this thread is "why so negative." We're telling you, based on history, we have reason to be negative. The Kings have high end talent in the pipeline (EDIT: particularly at forward, to be clear) and they don't have history of cultivating it.

Do you see anyone complaining about defense or goalies? No, because the Kings have developed quality players from a multitude of drafts, even during Blake's tenure when it comes down to defense and goalies.

Yet you trot out excuses of forwards not having time. Blake's first draft was 2017. The Vilardi/JAD draft.

Blake's job is to identify the issues and correct them. Just for clarity, you DO know Blake's been in Kings management since 2013, right? It's not like he was at TSC in 2017 to go to the bathroom and he won a raffle.

My focus and concern is on prospect and development. The lack of growth and opportunity for the prospects to succeed in a role suitable to their strength is alarming and largely unchanged from the DL era.

So this "blind rage" you want to discredit is from spending years focusing on developmental patterns and watching prospects (primarily Kings) play at varying levels, sometimes even more so than NHL games. I'm not a scout or professional, but it's a hobby/passion of mine. Sorry it doesn't fit your "video gamer" narrative.

I don't think the Kings are sabotaging their prospects. Not intentionally.

I think:
- Blake and McLellan are prioritizing making the playoffs while trying to keep their prospects, thinking the success from both ends will happen organically
AND

- Blake has former friends and colleagues he has played with and trusts them to a fault, not recognizing they may not be the best fit to develop forward prospects.
OR
- Blake doesn't realize the organization lacks the resources to develop the prospects to get near their potential.

It's not malice. It's simply inability or refusal to recognize an infrastructure issue.

That doesn't make him a bad person or even a bad GM. But it's a bad fit for what the organization needs: critical analysis of why forwards coming through the pipeline don't elevate their game to the next level.

 

[Peter James Bond II]

Why negative:

Because we all have one thing in common; passion for the Kings and for them to win. For the past several years, they cannot win more games than lose, with players
like Wagner, Luff, Amadio, MacDermid in the lineup. We cannot do anything about that and collectively are bummed or worse, are upset. That's part of being
passionate.

When we see that the organization makes moves that may be conducive to gaining more wins than losses, we are elated and hopeful.
We all know it's a process and will not change overnight. Most of us are reasonable, but irritated-to pissed off, when they still
mismanage players and are unwilling to remove the remaining players that fail and keep the team from best possible growth path
that will lead to winning.

Brown is failing by all and any measures of standards and for 13 minutes a night, basically performing 4.5 on 5. In the real
world, management would immediately remedy this. They do not make the real changes that must be made. They move Brown'
to line 3 and PP2, but that is still 13 minutes, out of 60, you are accepting failure. There are several superior options;
Andersson, Grundstrom, JAD. Soon, Byfield will be another option. Will they remove 23? Probably not. Will they sit
superior players? Yes.

Brown on line 3 put Kupari and Moore in a position to fail, as a 3 man unit. The result? Kupari sits and Andersson moves
to a position to fail at CENTER, with Brown still part of the unit. Lias has worked the past year to be a LW and has excelled
in becoming a LW. Excellent on the forecheck, beating most opponents to the puck, winning the puck back and making a play.
Now, he goes back to center and will not be playing to the strength he has now developed. Can he succeed? Perhaps.
But why not put players in the best scenario to have optimum success? This is lost on TM.

A player like Clague is waived, sent to Ontario and only finds his way back, due to 2 injuries. He returns and has played
the best hockey of his career and helped be a catalyst on PP1. He has done well on defense and only been on the ice for 3
(I believe) ES goals since his return. One of the few on D, that can skate end to end. One of the few on the team that can
skate with the puck more than 60 feet.

So what do the Kings do? Reward Durzi, who has worked hard on his game and played well in Ontario with a callup.
The right move is to sit Maatta, who has been sporadic and has no identity or real strength in his game.
So Clague is demoted, after playing as good or better than most of the defensemen. How many times can they
shttt on him?

 

[LAKings88]

Goodness.

The premise of this thread is "why so negative." We're telling you, based on history, we have reason to be negative. The Kings have high end talent in the pipeline (EDIT: particularly at forward, to be clear) and they don't have history of cultivating it.

Do you see anyone complaining about defense or goalies? No, because the Kings have developed quality players from a multitude of drafts, even during Blake's tenure when it comes down to defense and goalies.

Yet you trot out excuses of forwards not having time. Blake's first draft was 2017. The Vilardi/JAD draft.

Blake's job is to identify the issues and correct them. Just for clarity, you DO know Blake's been in Kings management since 2013, right? It's not like he was at TSC in 2017 to go to the bathroom and he won a raffle.

My focus and concern is on prospect and development. The lack of growth and opportunity for the prospects to succeed in a role suitable to their strength is alarming and largely unchanged from the DL era.

So this "blind rage" you want to discredit is from spending years focusing on developmental patterns and watching prospects (primarily Kings) play at varying levels, sometimes even more so than NHL games. I'm not a scout or professional, but it's a hobby/passion of mine. Sorry it doesn't fit your "video gamer" narrative.

I don't think the Kings are sabotaging their prospects. Not intentionally.

I think:
- Blake and McLellan are prioritizing making the playoffs while trying to keep their prospects, thinking the success from both ends will happen organically
AND

- Blake has former friends and colleagues he has played with and trusts them to a fault, not recognizing they may not be the best fit to develop forward prospects.
OR
- Blake doesn't realize the organization lacks the resources to develop the prospects to get near their potential.

It's not malice. It's simply inability or refusal to recognize an infrastructure issue.

That doesn't make him a bad person or even a bad GM. But it's a bad fit for what the organization needs: critical analysis of why forwards coming through the pipeline don't elevate their game to the next level.

These prospects and forwards have not busted. Your whole “negativity” is based on the belief they are incapable of developing these prospects or making good decisions because they are nepotistic. I won’t count Blake for Lombardi’s regime. The clock starts with Vilardi then for 2017. Still ongoing.

 

[LAKings88]

Why negative:

Because we all have one thing in common; passion for the Kings and for them to win. For the past several years, they cannot win more games than lose, with players
like Wagner, Luff, Amadio, MacDermid in the lineup. We cannot do anything about that and collectively are bummed or worse, are upset. That's part of being
passionate.

When we see that the organization makes moves that may be conducive to gaining more wins than losses, we are elated and hopeful.
We all know it's a process and will not change overnight. Most of us are reasonable, but irritated-to pissed off, when they still
mismanage players and are unwilling to remove the remaining players that fail and keep the team from best possible growth path
that will lead to winning.

Brown is failing by all and any measures of standards and for 13 minutes a night, basically performing 4.5 on 5. In the real
world, management would immediately remedy this. They do not make the real changes that must be made. They move Brown'
to line 3 and PP2, but that is still 13 minutes, out of 60, you are accepting failure. There are several superior options;
Andersson, Grundstrom, JAD. Soon, Byfield will be another option. Will they remove 23? Probably not. Will they sit
superior players? Yes.

Brown on line 3 put Kupari and Moore in a position to fail, as a 3 man unit. The result? Kupari sits and Andersson moves
to a position to fail at CENTER, with Brown still part of the unit. Lias has worked the past year to be a LW and has excelled
in becoming a LW. Excellent on the forecheck, beating most opponents to the puck, winning the puck back and making a play.
Now, he goes back to center and will not be playing to the strength he has now developed. Can he succeed? Perhaps.
But why not put players in the best scenario to have optimum success? This is lost on TM.

A player like Clague is waived, sent to Ontario and only finds his way back, due to 2 injuries. He returns and has played
the best hockey of his career and helped be a catalyst on PP1. He has done well on defense and only been on the ice for 3
(I believe) ES goals since his return. One of the few on D, that can skate end to end. One of the few on the team that can
skate with the puck more than 60 feet.

So what do the Kings do? Reward Durzi, who has worked hard on his game and played well in Ontario with a callup.
The right move is to sit Maatta, who has been sporadic and has no identity or real strength in his game.
So Clague is demoted, after playing as good or better than most of the defensemen. How many times can they
shttt on him?

How do you get rid of Brown in his last season? Thanks for the last 18 years, please f*** off.

 

[King'sPawn]

These prospects and forwards have not busted. You’re whole “negatively” is based on the belief they are incapable of developing these prospects or making good decisions. I won’t count Blake for Lombardi’s regime. The clock starts with Vilardi then for 2017.

Yeah they added vets and stop gaps. Openings are available next season. What do you want? How many rookies do you expect? Clague and Brown are the two rallying cries. Clague likely won’t be on the team next year and Brown is not going to be dumped this year based on the last 18 years of service. They talked to him and dropped him down. They are trying to address it. Honestly we are armchair gms. It sometimes just gets old. Guess I have the choice to engage or not.

I never said the prospects busted. I said so far, none of the players have been developed where their game has ultimately elevated. They're NHL players. There have been no consistent threats up front.

Blake was the GM of the Monarchs/Reign. If you want to have his clock start 4 years ago, all right. But he was key in the developmental team 8 years ago. It's a pretty significant detail to handwave, but you do you.

Opening are available this season. Will there be more next season? Supposedly. But why should we expect they will suddenly put a prospect in the top line next year? Why isn't it happening this year?

As for "what more do I want" it's simple.

1. With the number of vets and journeymen in the lineup, the young players should be put in roles they are meant to play in and let them make mistakes and grow, just like they do with the defensemen.

For example:
<prospect> - Kopitar - Arvidsson
Iafallo - Danault - <prospect>
Moore - <prospect> - Kempe
Lemieux - Lizotte - Brown/Athanasiou/etc

So it could be a lineup such as...

Andersson - Kopitar - Arvidsson
Iafallo - Danault - Kaliyev
Moore - Kupari - Kempe
Lemieux - Lizotte - Athanasiou

It doesn't even have to be a bunch of rookies at once. Just put a scorer in a scorer's role.

Placing a player in the bottom 6 and saying "earn your way up" is only valuable if they have a legitimate chance of earning it. You also give them responsibilities. Throwing them on the bottom 6 is saying "keep the puck out of our zone and score if you get a chance."

2. Don't demote/punish a player for mistakes. And don't punish them if a vet is the one making the mistakes (like Kupari with Brown). They're supposed to learn. Give them as much time as Brown got with Kopitar. You know, almost 1/4 of the season

They won't take ownership if you give them the bare minimum respinsibilities. Failure won't traumatize them. If they can't cut it after 10-20 games in a role, dial it back.

Want my BARE minimum? ONE high end forward, 23 or under, on the Kopitar or Danault line for 15 games straight. So it should be:
Kaliyev
Kupari
Vilardi
Andersson
JAD
Byfield
Turcotte
Madden
Fagemo
Tkachev (he's older than 23 but he's a rookie)

I know some are centers. But they won't beat out Kopitar or Danault anytime soon, so you better find a place soon.

If ONE prospect gets slotted into a legitimate role, and he gets 15 games to show what he has, I'll at least shut up and say "okay, this is a good evaluation period, they gave him a chance, and they are dialing back the expectations based on his performance."

It won't solve all the problems, but it would at least suggest a BETTER emphasis on developing forwards.

 

[kingsfan]

How do you get rid of Brown in his last season? Thanks for the last 18 years, please f*** off.

It happens. I wouldn't support getting rid of Brown (though I'd be ok with not resigning him after this year) but sometimes you got to jettison a guy if he's not NHL level anymore and as much as I like Brown we all know his trajectory is heading quickly towards sub-NHL standards. If he keeps it up and we're still in a playoff battle I'd be ok with exploring options to move on from him.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Yes, I think in general you have been overly optimistic with the Kings prospects over the years. Like I mentioned earlier, we should have had an impact player by now with all these picks. I'm guessing you will say Raymond and Seider would be in Ontario, and that is your right to think that. I bring up the games played by young players because young players have been given chances but no one has really grabbed the bull by the horns and forced themselves into a big role like some guys on other teams have.

I also don't really see how someone who was so on board with the bringing in of the black hole veterans and was against tanking is now disappointed the young players aren't being given more opportunity. I said from the start that overpaying for a defensive stopper on a team that can't score and bringing in a declining 40 point winger hoping he can get back to levels from three years ago was a mistake. I'd rather have the kids up, losing a lot of games, tanking for a high pick but learning how to play in the league. I don't know what kind of roster construction you expected after the black hole moves this summer.

@King'sPawn said it before I could, but the expectation I had, even with Danault and Arvidsson, was based on the org integrating youth with that for something like:

<prospect> - Kopitar - Arvidsson
Iafallo - Danault - <prospect>
Moore - <prospect> - Kempe
Lemieux - Lizotte - Brown/Athanasiou/etc

I expected it was a move to insulate the youth as they grew into roles and slowly supplanted players, especially because they verbalized as much over the summer. But instead, they quarantined them all to the bottom six in limited minutes, started giving Kopitar 24 a game, and vets are given chance after chance to fail while youngsters not so much.

For what it's worth i wasn't for the AA signing for that reason, I expected Arvidsson would replace Brown who would move down for his swan song, Danault would be 2C/3C with Byfield, Vilardi would be a wing, there would still be a spot or two up for grabs, and that would be more than enough vets for 'coverage' while guys learned on the job. Instead, until Brown got moved, we had arguably the best prospect collection in the NHL but a top-six whose average age was 30 and were playing our youngsters ~10 minutes a game. That's a betrayal of verbalized philosophy, which is what got me so riled up.

 

[King'sPawn]

I'll add I was for the AA signing, as well as the Arvidsson trade. Danault I was less enthused on, because the Kings had a glut of centers. But I accepted it with these expectations:
- Kopitar would get fewer minutes/the lines would be more used equitably
- the vets were given the Trent Hunter experience. If a young player outplayed them, the excess vet(s) would be benched and/or waived.

So far, the exact opposite has happened.

 

[LAKings88]

I never said the prospects busted. I said so far, none of the players have been developed where their game has ultimately elevated. They're NHL players. There have been no consistent threats up front.

Blake was the GM of the Monarchs/Reign. If you want to have his clock start 4 years ago, all right. But he was key in the developmental team 8 years ago. It's a pretty significant detail to handwave, but you do you.

Opening are available this season. Will there be more next season? Supposedly. But why should we expect they will suddenly put a prospect in the top line next year? Why isn't it happening this year?

As for "what more do I want" it's simple.

1. With the number of vets and journeymen in the lineup, the young players should be put in roles they are meant to play in and let them make mistakes and grow, just like they do with the defensemen.

For example:
<prospect> - Kopitar - Arvidsson
Iafallo - Danault - <prospect>
Moore - <prospect> - Kempe
Lemieux - Lizotte - Brown/Athanasiou/etc

So it could be a lineup such as...

Andersson - Kopitar - Arvidsson
Iafallo - Danault - Kaliyev
Moore - Kupari - Kempe
Lemieux - Lizotte - Athanasiou

It doesn't even have to be a bunch of rookies at once. Just put a scorer in a scorer's role.

Placing a player in the bottom 6 and saying "earn your way up" is only valuable if they have a legitimate chance of earning it. You also give them responsibilities. Throwing them on the bottom 6 is saying "keep the puck out of our zone and score if you get a chance."

2. Don't demote/punish a player for mistakes. And don't punish them if a vet is the one making the mistakes (like Kupari with Brown). They're supposed to learn. Give them as much time as Brown got with Kopitar. You know, almost 1/4 of the season

They won't take ownership if you give them the bare minimum respinsibilities. Failure won't traumatize them. If they can't cut it after 10-20 games in a role, dial it back.

Want my BARE minimum? ONE high end forward, 23 or under, on the Kopitar or Danault line for 15 games straight. So it should be:
Kaliyev
Kupari
Vilardi
Andersson
JAD
Byfield
Turcotte
Madden
Fagemo
Tkachev (he's older than 23 but he's a rookie)

I know some are centers. But they won't beat out Kopitar or Danault anytime soon, so you better find a place soon.

If ONE prospect gets slotted into a legitimate role, and he gets 15 games to show what he has, I'll at least shut up and say "okay, this is a good evaluation period, they gave him a chance, and they are dialing back the expectations based on his performance."

It won't solve all the problems, but it would at least suggest a BETTER emphasis on developing forwards.

Blake was the AHL GM for a bit. I still remember towards the end of DLs tenure when Sutter wasn’t playing youth and we were all clamoring for Weal after the championship. I do think BLuc were vocal about adding skill and youth and advocating for the team to change with the new NHL. Blake still had to answer to and do what DL wanted and work with what was given. He also hired wrobo for development purposes.

The Kings have Kupari (a center) and Kaliyev as their two rookies up this year. Would have probably been Byfield and/or too.

Kupari is a 3rd or 4th liner on this team. Maybe 2cd with injuries. They attempted him at wing in his development and it didn’t take. They see him as a center. Limited options for what to do with him.

Kaliyev is being sheltered because he has some things to work on. Either player might have been in the AHL had Byfield not been injured. As of now he is on a hot line. He is getting pp time.

They want to make the playoffs. Brown was ok last year and scored at a decent rate until injuries toward the end of the year. He and Kopi have a long history. Of course they tried them together this year with Arvidsson.

Kempe is a skilled player who somedays looks like a world beater and others looks invisible. AA had Five points in his first few games. Both were clicking with that second line (speed/tenacity).

Lizottes line has chemistry right now. Why touch them?

Kupari’s line needs work. You’ve got him, Moore (not in last years form) Andersson (Who I like) Grundstrom (Probably won’t be on the team in a year) and Brown. Not to mention Vilardi. With so many guys someone is going to get left out. I imagine they will tinker with that line for awhile.

This is the last year for a few of these guys. Hence the reason more slots will be open next year. I imagine the lineup will go through various looks this year. If they are out by the deadline, they likely try to trim the excess.

This is a transition year still. Next year is when the new era will start to begin in my mind. Especially if guys like Clarke (if he surprises) and Turcotte can make the jump.

Defense is a whole different animal. Clague has had a rough go (injuries, defensive lapses) but defensively he and Durzi are similar players. I guess they don’t want both in the lineup together. I’d like to see it honestly.

The backend pool is getting interesting too:

Andersson Doughty
Bjornfot Walker
*** Roy
***

Clague likely leaves but who knows
86 Maatta and Edler

2 Spots for:
Durzi (is he a ufa?)
Spence
Moverare
Faber? (Righty)
Clarke? (Righty)
Grans
Nousiainan
*Trade for a solid dman