Analyzing Management and Development

[tny760]

i'm negative because blake sold me a very different picture than i think we're seeing and i have reservations about tmac's ability to deal with the team long-term

picking up arvidsson and danault means blake sees this team competing short term, maybe danault gets some leeway as a longer term stopgap but that's a lot of money to dump into a rebuilding team right? bring in the russian UFA tkachev then bury him? frk buried while the big club can't score a PPG to save their life? if the goal is to keep the AHL squad together and have them succeed together until next season, i get it. then why's durzi being called up to miss a stockton game for... nothing? that was a big game. i feel like there's been a huge amount of those "...but why?" moments from the FO this season and it has me worried that they might not really know what they're doing. i get that losing byfield, doughty and walker are huge hurdles but injuries are to be expected and i think we were doing the same questionable things before and after those injuries. i fear that half the RFAs and UFAs next season get resigned and we just keep middling for years. i hope they have the balls to let kempe, AA, brown, maatta etc walk and tell the kids to step up.

and that leads to my concerns about tmac and his staff. riding the vet lines to the tune of 20+min a night each in the top 6.. in the first 20 games of the season.. doesn't bode well for an already worn down kopitar's supposed playoff fitness.. same goes for alex edler, god bless him. what is kupari learning in his sub-10min a night? why does grundstrom get benched after scoring a goal in his best hockey of the year? what are these kids being taught? that you have a 10 mile long leash and 1st unit PP minutes if you're dustin brown but if you're on an ELC/RFA contract you're promised nothing? why is marco sturm still coaching this PP? it's HORRIBLE. it has been for his entire tutelage. why does it take 20 games to try something different like putting kaliyev out there for the one timer? gotta teach him to grind with handcuffs on first i guess

i don't think i have it in me to be negative about the players themselves besides dustin brown cause holy f***in shit, but i am very excited for the future players, i just worry (a lot) about what they're coming into.

 

[apocalypse]

I think vilardi could've been developed to be a two way center with the right coaching. Now he's on wing where he'll probably never develop.

 

[LAKings88]

Kempe is on the top line, but he's in the streaky Toffoli caliber.

Kupari and Kaliyev are in the bottom 6.

JAD when brought up will be a bottom 6.

The TOP 6 this year is:
Kopitar - played in Sweden then was NHL ready. Never came through the system
Iafallo - NHL ready out of college. Didn't go through the system
Danault - UFA signing
Athanasiou - UFA signing
Kempe - middle-six player. Not dependable on the top line
Arvidsson - trade

The best forwards in the organization have spent virtually zero time developing.

Look at the defense:
Anderson - time in the AHL
Bjornfot - seemed NHL ready but still played a bit in the AHL
Roy - time in the AHL
Walker (injured) - played in the AHL.
Clague - time in the AHL

Then you can look at Muzzin, Martinez, etc who all spent time in the AHL, and showing they are capable to get key minutes in some capacity (top-4, PK, PP, etc).

And we need to stop blaming DL. They focused on character. But they didn't ignore skill. They drafted Schenn and Simmonds, who again, thrived offensively outside of the organization.

I’m confused tho, Kupari and Kaliyev both spent a year in the AHL. Their current prospects are all on a top AHL team. Are they not currently being developed right?

 

[LAKings88]

I think vilardi could've been developed to be a two way center with the right coaching. Now he's on wing where he'll probably never develop.

His situation is so atypical. His injury situation along with drafting Byfield and signing Danault changed his projection a bit.

 

[shuchukfan]

I agree with those who say our prospects, when called up, usually aren't put in a position to succeed. Yeah, Blake may call them up, but TMac is the one slotting them in.

That said, I decided that when I watch games this season, I'm am going to try and not be negative towards players and their playmaking decisions. Thing like, "Why in the hell would you pass to that idiot when you had a shooting lane?!" or "Ugh, Maatta...". Now its, "Hey, I see what you tried to do. Good effort. You'll get it next time." It's a hard habit to overcome, but I'm doing my best. Still don't like TMac, though.

 

[King'sPawn]

I’m confused tho, Kupari and Kaliyev both spent a year in the AHL. Their current prospects are all on a top AHL team. Are they not currently being developed right?

The Manchester Monarchs were the AHL champions in 2014-15. During the time when DL brought in a bunch of "unskilled" players (as alluded to by you).

Again. They are churning out NHL players, but they aren't cultivating top end talent up front at the NHL level.

The concern is simple:
"With the current talent of young players inbthe organization up front (Kaliyev, Turcotte, Thomas, Byfield, Kupari, etc), do the Kings have the resources to develop any of them into legitimate top line talent? Or will they be developed into NHL players suited for the middle-six at best? IF we expect them to be middle-six at best, is the problem with the scouting or development?"

Right now, the Kings have yet to prove in nearly 15 years the ability to develop top-line talent from within the organization. Even when they were champions, not a single forward from that team amounted to much at the NHL level.

You countered previously "but top picks!" To which I allude that talent is found in layer rounds. If you cannot get a decent top-six forward without a high pick, then you're admitting either scouting or development is lacking.

You alluded to "DL's plugs" but they have gone further at the AHL level than any of Blake's teams.

Beyond Kempe, Toffoli and Pearson, you'd have to go to Dustin Brown, Mike Cammalleri as players who regularly played/contributed on the top line for the Kings while going through the Kings' system. That's 5 players in 20 years, and that's being generous as far as "top line".

I don't think I can make any clearer where the concern or cause for negativity is. I'll try if you're still stuck.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Alot of the anger seems to be directed at the supposed unfair treatment of young players. This is HFBoards, the HF used to stand for Hockey's Future (not sure if it still does) but either way, the obsession with playing youth and the feeling that young players aren't given a chance is a staple thought on every team board on this site, this one is no different.

I am no Blake fan, but the anti-youth thing has no basis in reality. I have said numerous times, if the Kings are so anti-youth why have so many U-21 players been given a chance to play NHL games under Blake? None of the people who scream about Blake hating youth ever want to address it, but the facts are quite clear.

JAD (19), Byfield (18), Kaliyev (19), Bjornfot (18), Anderson (20), Vilardi (20), Kupari (20)

Why would someone who is anti-youth or slow-playing deserving youth have so many young players play NHL games?

JAD is not on the roster. Byfield is not (currently) on the roster. Kaliyev is getting less minutes than anyone on the roster. Bjornfot and Anderson are beauties and deserving of their roles--I'm glad we all agree there. Vilardi is not on the roster. Kupari is next to Kaliyev with fewest minutes on the roster.

"playing them in games" is a pretty low bar for guys drafted as supposedly top six talents, and playing them in depth roles and wondering why they aren't doing more is self sabotage.

They might not be 'anti-youth' but they're very 'anti use offensive players in a place to use their offense.'

I'm not going to bother arguing with anyone else in this thread as there's plenty to talk about elsewhere, but this forum is funny. I spent years upon years being relentlessly positive and took shit for it, now I go after Todd McLellan and I'm 'not a fan'. I haven't complained about the players themselves outside of Brown, haven't even complained much about Blake. It's solely about coaching/usage/development and backed up with myriad examples but that makes me a bad fan.

Edit: this is extra cute coming from someone who has actively argued with me about prospect upside and that I'm seeing them all with rose colored goggles.

 

[Lt Dan]

I spent years upon years being relentlessly positive and took shit for it, now I go after Todd McLellan and I'm 'not a fan'.

I took that Jimmy Eat World song to heart and I stay in the middle of everything. Politics, religion, even the backseat of a car

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

The record doesn't necessarily reflect it, but I think we have that right now. Last 4 losses, all winnable...all 1 goal games. The last game, how many glorious scoring chances did they have (just couldn't bury it). King are exciting to watch, RIGHT NOW. I love the pace this team is playing with...gonna love it more when there are more wins to show for it.

THAT I can agree with...they certainly look better and to be progressing with the system. The results should come.

I completely agree. I've spent far less time on these boards the past week because of the mindset around here. We added some vets and were expected to take a step but we were always a bubble playoff team this year. That's what we are and are looking to develop consistency. Some of the posts around here are utterly nauseating and I wonder how some can actually consider themselves fans.

From one clearly long time fan to another clearly long time fan: f*** off with this nonsense.

Fandom isn't eating the organization's shit sandwiches with a smile on your face 100% of the time. I bet I've spent more on this organization this year than a lot of posters here between Kings/Reign games and merch but here I'm being told I can't enjoy it because I'm disappointed with the current coach and worried about the upcoming youth--things that were utterly common themes around here before this year but suddenly are a scarlet letter.

I remember once upon a tme saying y'know maybe Craig Johnson and Sean O'Donnel are the wrong folks to be teaching Byfield, Turcotte, Clarke offense---they have, as always, rubbed off excellently turning guys into two-way players, but the first real 'offensive talents' of the crop are struggling pretty mightily, fulfilling some of our worries. I'm hopeful the above three transcend any damage TM or development can do but the guys that could go either way are largely not going beyond expectations, rather they're mostly below. I have issues with the idea that guys like Vilardi and Tkachev (and earlier Frk) are being held accountable while guys like AA, a huge liability, continue to get fed. Vets over youth.

THAT is all I'm negative about.

I'm having fun watching the team. Pulling for the youth. Watching the endgame of some Kings legends. Realizing there'sa team here that's *this close* about to get a best-in-NHL dman back. Watching the pace get pushed vs. the best teams in the league. Cheering on youth as they break in. Watching Lemieux raise the pulse of the whole team. Enjoying the speed merchants half this roster has suddenly become, and Iafallo turn the critics heads (remember when I was getting shit on for being relentlessly positive about Iafallo, Danault?). And waiting for the inevitable rise of Byfield (and not long after, Turcotte).

But no, being mad about TM and questioning the development team...that's a step too much. Here's my fan card.

 

[Gjwrams]

This fanbase is just clamoring for a kid to become a star.......

We thought is was Kupari.....Nope (Centering a line with Dustin Brown and Trevor Moore).
We thought it was Vilardi....Nope (Buried on the 4th line and now back in the AHL).
We got jacked up about Turcotte....Nope (Too small and frail).
We got jacked up about Byfield...Nope (Breaks ankle).
We get fired up over Kaliyev.....Nope (Buried on the 4th line)

Can't we get a Barzel or a Matthews. Someone that moves the damn needle and not need 3 years to develop.

That's all I want.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

One more thing I'm extremely happy about--we finally got an asshole in Lemeiux. One that can play, score, fight, troll, and drag everyone else along for the ride because he's otherwise a good dude and stops just short of crossing the line (for now--I remember going on about his dirtbag antics when he was younger).

 

[bland]

Alot of the anger seems to be directed at the supposed unfair treatment of young players. This is HFBoards, the HF used to stand for Hockey's Future (not sure if it still does) but either way, the obsession with playing youth and the feeling that young players aren't given a chance is a staple thought on every team board on this site, this one is no different.

I am no Blake fan, but the anti-youth thing has no basis in reality. I have said numerous times, if the Kings are so anti-youth why have so many U-21 players been given a chance to play NHL games under Blake? None of the people who scream about Blake hating youth ever want to address it, but the facts are quite clear.

JAD (19), Byfield (18), Kaliyev (19), Bjornfot (18), Anderson (20), Vilardi (20), Kupari (20)

Why would someone who is anti-youth or slow-playing deserving youth have so many young players play NHL games?

The Kings top picks in the 17, 18, 19 and 20 drafts, all centers, are competing for one 3rd line center job over the next few years.

They won't be given the offensive wingers to augment their game, even worse if they decide to give one of them the 4c job.

Its not just letting them grow, its about pigeon holing them into spots not suited to maturing into their strengths simply for the sake of being a playoff team now.

Its playing both ends against each other, you can't win now because the kids aren't solid enough to contribute to a contender, and you aren't allowing for the best organic growth because nobody is allowed to work on their strengths as much as their weaknesses.

Kaliyev is a perfect example. Shot is NHL quality, but he isn't put in the best place to use it because pointless vets like Brown and Athanasiou are getting primes opponents on a team that isn't playoff caliber anyway. Put the kid into a position to succeed while developing.

 

[Fishhead]

This fanbase is just clamoring for a kid to become a star.......

We thought is was Kupari.....Nope (Centering a line with Dustin Brown and Trevor Moore).
We thought it was Vilardi....Nope (Buried on the 4th line and now back in the AHL).
We got jacked up about Turcotte....Nope (Too small and frail).
We got jacked up about Byfield...Nope (Breaks ankle).
We get fired up over Kaliyev.....Nope (Buried on the 4th line)

Can't we get a Barzel or a Matthews. Someone that moves the damn needle and not need 3 years to develop.

That's all I want.

Who in the last 3 drafts hits that criteria? Anyone?

If you go back before that 10 drafts or so, try to find players who come in, make an impact, and are stars outside of the top 5 picks. You might get a handful. Most of those guys are top 2.

We all want that, but it's lightning in a bottle. Getting Kopitar, Doughty, and Quick in short order is as rare as hell, and teams like that win cups.

 

[Gjwrams]

Kaliyev is a perfect example. Shot is NHL quality, but he isn't put in the best place to use it because pointless vets like Brown and Athanasiou are getting primes opponents on a team that isn't playoff caliber anyway. Put the kid into a position to succeed while developing.

THIS.....RIGHT HERE.

 

[Gjwrams]

Who in the last 3 drafts hits that criteria? Anyone?

If you go back before that 10 drafts or so, try to find players who come in, make an impact, and are stars outside of the top 5 picks. You might get a handful. Most of those guys are top 2.

We all want that, but it's lightning in a bottle. Getting Kopitar, Doughty, and Quick in short order is as rare as hell, and teams like that win cups.

Well...We want to reach into the bag of signed pucks and get Gretzky....not Jordan Nolan!

 

[kingsholygrail]

They have much in common with last season's team which had one long win streak and then what two 2-win streaks for the rest of the season. So far we have the one long win streak.

 

[BigKing]

They have much in common with last season's team which had one long win streak and then what two 2-win streaks for the rest of the season. So far we have the one long win streak.

Eyeball wise--due to actually having a good 2nd line center, exciting goals from Arty and more minutes for Bjornfot--it looks and feels better than last year but this post right here sums it up nicely when it comes to the team: they are supposed to be better than last season but they actually had a better record after 18 games last season. We're in the midst of a four game losing streak and just lost to an AHL team so all the big picture issues people have with the team are going to be talked about since the right now picture sucks as well. You'll get less bitching about Blake/T-Mac/Youth during a seven game win streak but it doesn't mean that those criticisms aren't still held by many and are bubbling beneath the surface.

What gets lost in the comparisons to last season, however, is not having Doughty. That's a big deal when it comes to comparing records between this year and last season. I do believe they are a more exciting watch than previous years which is nice to see since this is supposed to be entertainment.

As for all of the youth arguments, they could have sent Kaliyev and Kupari down but they ditched Wagner instead and put down JAD who played a decent amount in the NHL last year and is a couple of development years ahead of Kupari when factoring in Kupari's knee injury. One of them probably isn't on the team if Byfield doesn't get hurt but that is a 19 year old that would have been on the team as well. I'm not a Blake fan but I don't think he has been anti-youth with his roster decisions. I'm definitely not a T-Mac fan and I think Kaliyev should be on the first PP unit but he isn't riding shotgun on a 4th line with Matt Johnson and Steve McKenna. If anything, they should be giving Kaliyev more minutes by playing the 4th line more plus that first unit PP time.

The big thing here is Brown and we all knew this was going to be painful and it was going to piss people off. People like to quote his stats from last season but he tailed off big time and we are seeing a continuation of that. Dude was drafted in 2003 in maybe the best 1st round ever but look at the players left from that draft and how they are playing...most of them are retired or shells of their former selves. It's no surprise but Brown was destined to be taking minutes away from a young player and there was never a chance they were going to scratch him or play him eight minutes a game.

I don't care about the counting stats with Athanasiou but, sure, he's got 5 points in 8 games. Nice. He also has 0 points in the last four while usually playing over 17 minutes a night. He doesn't have a future with this organization so that is the guy to look at when it comes to blocking a prospect from a better role: they were stuck with Brown but they actively chose to bring AA back when it initially looked like they wouldn't. But who knows...he might just be a placeholder with a prospect replacing him this season by having AA move down the lineup or possibly get flipped for a pick.

 

[BillyCostigan]

Kings have a lot of exciting young players to look forward to, can't wait to watch Byfield play.

 

[Lt Dan]

Kings have a lot of exciting young players to look forward to, can't wait to watch Byfield play.

Man as soon as I thought up witty reply to your prior post. you edit it and take it a totally different direction.
You are beyond the crow of judgment, you get the

 

[DoktorJeep]

I’ve been negative about this team since April 2018. I expect to feel positive sometime around Jan 2023.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Eyeball wise--due to actually having a good 2nd line center, exciting goals from Arty and more minutes for Bjornfot--it looks and feels better than last year but this post right here sums it up nicely when it comes to the team: they are supposed to be better than last season but they actually had a better record after 18 games last season. We're in the midst of a four game losing streak and just lost to an AHL team so all the big picture issues people have with the team are going to be talked about since the right now picture sucks as well. You'll get less bitching about Blake/T-Mac/Youth during a seven game win streak but it doesn't mean that those criticisms aren't still held by many and are bubbling beneath the surface.

What gets lost in the comparisons to last season, however, is not having Doughty. That's a big deal when it comes to comparing records between this year and last season. I do believe they are a more exciting watch than previous years which is nice to see since this is supposed to be entertainment.

As for all of the youth arguments, they could have sent Kaliyev and Kupari down but they ditched Wagner instead and put down JAD who played a decent amount in the NHL last year and is a couple of development years ahead of Kupari when factoring in Kupari's knee injury. One of them probably isn't on the team if Byfield doesn't get hurt but that is a 19 year old that would have been on the team as well. I'm not a Blake fan but I don't think he has been anti-youth with his roster decisions. I'm definitely not a T-Mac fan and I think Kaliyev should be on the first PP unit but he isn't riding shotgun on a 4th line with Matt Johnson and Steve McKenna. If anything, they should be giving Kaliyev more minutes by playing the 4th line more plus that first unit PP time.

The big thing here is Brown and we all knew this was going to be painful and it was going to piss people off. People like to quote his stats from last season but he tailed off big time and we are seeing a continuation of that. Dude was drafted in 2003 in maybe the best 1st round ever but look at the players left from that draft and how they are playing...most of them are retired or shells of their former selves. It's no surprise but Brown was destined to be taking minutes away from a young player and there was never a chance they were going to scratch him or play him eight minutes a game.

I don't care about the counting stats with Athanasiou but, sure, he's got 5 points in 8 games. Nice. He also has 0 points in the last four while usually playing over 17 minutes a night. He doesn't have a future with this organization so that is the guy to look at when it comes to blocking a prospect from a better role: they were stuck with Brown but they actively chose to bring AA back when it initially looked like they wouldn't. But who knows...he might just be a placeholder with a prospect replacing him this season by having AA move down the lineup or possibly get flipped for a pick.

IIRC this is fair and I think '4th line' is a misnomer becasue by my memory they were the 'third line' the other night, which is much closer to fair/what I would expect

Unfortunately that happened at the expense of Kupari who was handed the Brown piano but I guess you win some you lose some

 

[SmytheKing]

Who in the last 3 drafts hits that criteria? Anyone?

If you go back before that 10 drafts or so, try to find players who come in, make an impact, and are stars outside of the top 5 picks. You might get a handful. Most of those guys are top 2.

We all want that, but it's lightning in a bottle. Getting Kopitar, Doughty, and Quick in short order is as rare as hell, and teams like that win cups.

I'd argue that those three were able to become who they were because their coach at the time allowed them to make mistakes and put them in positions to not only succeed, but to be responsible for the teams success. Kopitar and Doughty were given top line minutes from the first day they arrived. Quick made his way through the minors for ~2 years, but they never put him back down just because they had Jason Labarbera. They traded him for a 7th rounder so Quick could be the starter.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I'd argue that those three were able to become who they were because their coach at the time allowed them to make mistakes and put them in positions to not only succeed, but to be responsible for the teams success. Kopitar and Doughty were given top line minutes from the first day they arrived. Quick made his way through the minors for ~2 years, but they never put him back down just because they had Jason Labarbera. They traded him for a 7th rounder so Quick could be the starter.

Right, and I don't think anyone is asking to dump Kopitar or Danault just so Vilardi can play or something; just that if you're going to call a guy up, try him out in the position you see him in long-term. What's the point in dicking around Durzi? Kaliyev on the current '4th' line works but that was in spite of itself, he should at least get a trial next to Kopitar or I'd prefer Danault/Iafallo. It's what I mentioned with the blues--Robert Thomas getting nearly 20 min on the top line, Kyrou getting 15, etc--it's not because the Blues are short on talent, they just recognize that guys are successful when allowed to play with similar talent in similar roles and allowed to grow while making mistakes. Particularly wingers, I have a hard time believing Kaliyev would be such a liability that he'd handicap Danault/Iafallo any more than AA does. We're not talking about trying Spence at 1D/DD's spot.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

One more thing I'm extremely happy about--we finally got an asshole in Lemeiux. One that can play, score, fight, troll, and drag everyone else along for the ride because he's otherwise a good dude and stops just short of crossing the line (for now--I remember going on about his dirtbag antics when he was younger).

Feels good huh

 

[SmytheKing]

Right, and I don't think anyone is asking to dump Kopitar or Danault just so Vilardi can play or something; just that if you're going to call a guy up, try him out in the position you see him in long-term. What's the point in dicking around Durzi? Kaliyev on the current '4th' line works but that was in spite of itself, he should at least get a trial next to Kopitar or I'd prefer Danault/Iafallo. It's what I mentioned with the blues--Robert Thomas getting nearly 20 min on the top line, Kyrou getting 15, etc--it's not because the Blues are short on talent, they just recognize that guys are successful when allowed to play with similar talent in similar roles and allowed to grow while making mistakes. Particularly wingers, I have a hard time believing Kaliyev would be such a liability that he'd handicap Danault/Iafallo any more than AA does. We're not talking about trying Spence at 1D/DD's spot.

Precisely. If the Kings had a long-term plan for AA or Lizotte (who I don't hate like a lot of folks seem to) or Andersson, they'd have signed them to a longer term deals. Same as you, I don't see how putting AK or Vilardi or JAD or any other young prospect in those slots would suddenly destroy a team that's hovering around .500 and was a bubble shot at a playoff spot. Vilardi and JAD are 22 years old. If they can't handle 13-15 minutes a night in the NHL with some favorable matchups and zone starts, I'm not sure what's going to change with them playing in the AHL.