Blue Jays Discussion: Alright, no more discontent. Just baseball | ST in Mtl: StL @ Tor | Mar 26/27 7pm ET/4pm PT

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BlueForever75

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Oct 4, 2017
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fangraphs positional power rankings.

3B 1st
C 9th
2B 11th
SS 11th
CF 12th
1B 12th
RF 13th
LF 15th
DH 9th (of 15)

One stud position, surrounded by a bunch of average to good.

DH the weakest spot but more just below average than bad.

I think these rankings are bogus. The only one that is accurate is 3B and that is even up for debate considering there are 2 or 3 third basemen that can be number one. 2 that come to mind off the top of my head are Arneado (Col) and Machado (Bal). But I think Machado is playing SS this season.

But at C after Posey, Sanchez, Contreras, Perez and Grandal who is better then Martin?

At 1B there are 11 better then what Smoak did last season both with the bat and glove?

And at DH there 8 better then Morales and the power numbers he has produced consistently in the past?

Sorry I think some are a little off. RF I get, Grichuk has to prove himself. And 2B I get as well, Travis has to remain healthy.
 

Discoverer

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Apr 11, 2012
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I think these rankings are bogus. The only one that is accurate is 3B and that is even up for debate considering there are 2 or 3 third basemen that can be number one. 2 that come to mind off the top of my head are Arneado (Col) and Machado (Bal). But I think Machado is playing SS this season.

But at C after Posey, Sanchez, Contreras, Perez and Grandal who is better then Martin?

At 1B there are 11 better then what Smoak did last season both with the bat and glove?

And at DH there 8 better then Morales and the power numbers he has produced consistently in the past?

Sorry I think some are a little off. RF I get, Grichuk has to prove himself. And 2B I get as well, Travis has to remain healthy.

These rankings are based on what projections expect them to do this year, not what they did last year.
 

The Nemesis

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Aww geez. Um, let's see. Travis gets hurt in his first PA, disappears for the rest of the year, and Grichuk catches the Bautista virus, grows a beard, and is worth -0.5 fWAR.

Also, Shapiro sucks.

You also forgot that Smoak regresses back to unplayable 2016 Smoak, Sanchez becomes the world's first case of chronic spontaneous blisteritis (hereafter known as "Aaron Sanchez disease") where he develops blisters on his pitching hand merely by looking at it. Also Stroman's chip on his shoulder becomes so deep that it actually severs his arm from his body, leading to an angry tweet where he complains that it happened because the team didn't believe in him enough and is followed by a public tarring and feathering by rabid Bob McCown listeners who just want him to stop yapping and play baseball.
 

TheMadHatTrick

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Nov 2, 2008
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Interesting article on failed rebuilds of the past and why they failed.

Lessons From Rebuilds Past

1. If You're Going To Rebuild, Go All In
4. Don't Rely On Pitchers To Be The Backbone Of Your Rebuild
5. Timing Is Essential So That Players Hit Their Ceiling Together

I'm most worried about 1 and 5.

We haven't fully committed to a rebuild (though hopefully if we're out of it we can get good prospects for our UFAs), and because of it we don't have any top prospects on the same timetable as Vlad and Bo other than Alford.
 

Bjindaho

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Jun 12, 2006
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This is a joke, right?

He admits to causing a domestic disturbance (worthy of police intervention) which is only having the charges be dropped ultimately because his partner won't file charges or testify (he is absolutely wealthy enough to intimidate her into silence).

Also, how the hell does MLB determine that they have enough evidence to not suspend Sano. If I were on the plaintiffs' side, I would request a mistrial and that MLB be directly sanctioned for tampering.
 
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Canada4Gold

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Dec 22, 2010
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Happy that Bo and Vlad are going to New Hampshire. No reason to put them back in Dunedin. Move them up as they deserve it and after last year they certainly deserve it.
 

Mach85

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Mar 14, 2013
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This is a joke, right?

He admits to causing a domestic disturbance (worthy of police intervention) which is only having the charges be dropped ultimately because his partner won't file charges or testify (he is absolutely wealthy enough to intimidate her into silence).

Also, how the hell does MLB determine that they have enough evidence to not suspend Sano. If I were on the plaintiffs' side, I would request a mistrial and that MLB be directly sanctioned for tampering.
Sano's accuser is not filing charges or a lawsuit of any kind.
 

The Nemesis

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Apr 11, 2005
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Interesting article on failed rebuilds of the past and why they failed.

Lessons From Rebuilds Past



I'm most worried about 1 and 5.

We haven't fully committed to a rebuild (though hopefully if we're out of it we can get good prospects for our UFAs), and because of it we don't have any top prospects on the same timetable as Vlad and Bo other than Alford.

Jansen? Borucki? McGuire? Maybe Urena & Tellez? Zeuch is starting in NH this year and could be a fast riser. Pannone would've been in this class if he hadn't gotten suspended. Reid-Foley could be a pen arm if he gets his **** together.

That's MLB Pipeline's 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 14th, and 15th ranked Jays prospects (not in the same order. The order of ranking would be Jansen, Borucki, Zeuch, Reid-Foley, Urena, McGuire, Tellez) That's 7 guys who are projected with ETAs of the next season or two, which is the Vladdy/Bo timeline. And considering that Vlad/Bo/Alford are the top 3, that's 7 of the 12 guys who are ranked in the rest of the top 15 of the system.

Now if you want to argue that there aren't super elite guys on that timetable, then of course there aren't. The only other player who looks like they have a really really high end ceiling to them right now is Pearson, who is probably a couple years away from a pen debut and another year after that from being a starter (think Sanchez) But it's not really an indictment of the Jays system to have that setup. No system ends up graduating more than 2 or 3 really special prospects in a given year or even over a couple of years. Usually you find a special guy every couple of years and a smaller cadre of talented-regular level guys to surround them.


Also #1 would've basically meant kissing the playoff runs goodbye because the rebuilding effort that begat the prospects that are the next wave began in earnest about 4-5 years ago (Alford was a 2012 pick, and Jansen was 2013, but many of the bigger names were 2014-2016 draft/signees.) So going "all-in" would've required blowing it up before we even saw the playoffs. At which point people would likely be sitting here complaining that the team gave up a shot at the playoffs to start from scratch again with no guarantees.

Looking at the lessons in that list:

#1) Go all-in or don't: Discussed above. It could've been better, but the fanbase may not have tolerated that.
#2) Maximize your trade return: we'll see how that goes if they decide to blow it up this year/next and the big money MLB talent starts flowing out)
#3) Acquire that final vet piece when necessary: Ironically, this is perhaps what leaves them where they are now, because prospect capital was spent getting guys for the playoff run, which meant that the Jays could've had Hoffman and Norris and some depth arms (for as much as they might be worth). Otherwise we won't see how this plays out until we're into the 2020-22 seasons and the core starts really coming together
#4) Don't rely on pitchers: They're doing fine. Yeah Pearson is a headliner, but the bulk of the sexy prospects are position players. They're in a position to be able to use young established pitchers like Stroman and Sanchez to be the vets for a rebuilt team and avoid the whole TINSTAAPP issue as much as you reasonably can.
#5) Time prospects to hit their ceilings together: This is harder than the piece makes it out to sound, and as discussed above I think they're doing an OK job of it.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
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27: RH Stroman, 2B Travis
26: OF Grichuk
25: SP Sanchez, OF Hernandez, CF Pompey
24: LH Borucki, LH Pannone, UT Gurriel
23: RH Osuna, CF Alford, C Jansen, C McGuire, 1B Tellez
22: RH Zeuch, IF Urena, RH SRF, C Adams, SS Warmoth
21: RH Pearson, RH Maese
20: IF Bichette
19: 1B Guerrero, IF Taylor
 

Bjindaho

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Jun 12, 2006
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Sano's accuser is not filing charges or a lawsuit of any kind.

Under US law, if the police get called to a domestic disturbance, charges have to be filed. What has become more common OTOH is that the charges get filed based on what the police believe to have happened then the abused refuses to corroborate on the stand.

It bothers me more than a little that professional athletes outside of the NFL (who absolutely have the means necessary to intimidate a partner into silence) have basically no accountability when it comes to this sort of behavior.
 

Nineteen67

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I think these rankings are bogus. The only one that is accurate is 3B and that is even up for debate considering there are 2 or 3 third basemen that can be number one. 2 that come to mind off the top of my head are Arneado (Col) and Machado (Bal). But I think Machado is playing SS this season.

But at C after Posey, Sanchez, Contreras, Perez and Grandal who is better then Martin?

At 1B there are 11 better then what Smoak did last season both with the bat and glove?

And at DH there 8 better then Morales and the power numbers he has produced consistently in the past?

Sorry I think some are a little off. RF I get, Grichuk has to prove himself. And 2B I get as well, Travis has to remain healthy.

Starting Pitching is the reason this team has a chance at 85 + Ws. I suspect there will be a lot games in the middle of the season without much production from the bottom 2/3 of the lineup.
 

Mach85

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Mar 14, 2013
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Under US law, if the police get called to a domestic disturbance, charges have to be filed. What has become more common OTOH is that the charges get filed based on what the police believe to have happened then the abused refuses to corroborate on the stand.

It bothers me more than a little that professional athletes outside of the NFL (who absolutely have the means necessary to intimidate a partner into silence) have basically no accountability when it comes to this sort of behavior.
You should read the complaint. It wasn't a domestic disturbance. His accuser alleges that she was accompanying him to an Apple Store after working alongside him at a public appearance (she's a team photographer/blogger) and that he physically accosted her in a hallway then. While I share your outrage that it seems like he's getting off scot-free (some interesting sympathetic tweets from Trevor Plouffe and Trevor May toward the accuser suggest they didn't have a hard time believing this was true), there's not much that can be done when the only two witnesses are affiliated with Sano and refuse to co-operate; not to mention when the accuser doesn't want to file a civil suit, where the burden of proof is lower than in criminal court.
 

The Nemesis

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This is not the place for sociopolitical discussions about the validity/severity/seriousness of crimes or accusations levied against assorted pro athletes. The fact that suspensions were or weren't handed out is news and is relevant, but I don't want the thread to turn into something other than baseball discussion.

thanks everyone.

PS: We're going to start a new thread after the Montreal games, so that it's fresh for the season. Given time and available resources I may include some useful front-end stuff like links and prospect rankings and whatnot. We'll see.
 

phillipmike

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Oct 27, 2009
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To me with the exception of the infield this looks like they listed the guys who made the opening day roster and then the extras who wont.

Guys like Donaldson and Travis are missing likely to give them mores rest and we know the plan for Biagini to be in AAA so we know he isn't making the roster.

This is my guess based on this potentially meaningless organized list;

C: Martin
1B: Smoak
2B: Travis
SS: Diaz
3B: Donaldson
RF: Grichuk
CF: Pillar
LF: Granderson
DH: Morales

C: Maile
INF: Solarte
INF: Espinosa
OF: Pearce

Happ
Sanchez
Estrada
Stroman
Garcia

Osuna
Oh
Barnes
Axford
Clippard
Loup
Mayza

Notables left off are Tepera, Hernandez, and Gift if you think he was making it.
 
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Discoverer

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Apr 11, 2012
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To me with the exception of the infield this looks like they listed the guys who made the opening day roster and then the extras who wont.

Guys like Donaldson and Travis are missing likely to give them mores rest and we know the plan for Biagini to be in AAA so we know he isn't making the roster.

This is my guess based on this potentially meaningless organized list;

C: Martin
1B: Smoak
2B: Travis
SS: Diaz
3B: Donaldson
RF: Grichuk
CF: Pillar
LF: Granderson
DH: Morales

C: Maile
INF: Solarte
INF: Espinosa
OF: Pearce

Happ
Sanchez
Estrada
Stroman
Garcia

Osuna
Oh
Barnes
Axford
Clippard
Loup
Mayza

Notables left off are Tepera, Hernandez, and Gift if you think he was making it.


Replace Mayza with Tepera and use Clippard in a typical LOOGY spot and I think you've got it.
 
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