All Purpose Trade/Roster Building Thread XIII - the 23 deadline approaches

[AhosDatsyukian]

You are right. He was NYR #1 LD next to Trouba. Part of the issue is he was over slotted next to a bad partner.

Check www.naturalstattrick.com for receipts if you want. It is all there.

https://www.naturalstattrick.com/playerreport.php?fromseason=20192020&thruseason=20192020&stype=2&sit=5v5&stdoi=oi&rate=n&v=t&playerid=8476869

He was playing over 20 minutes a night which makes him a 2nd pair D. I remember this board being pretty mixed on the deal at the time

He was getting minutes with them but he was not playing well at all. He always was a great skater and big guy with high upside at the position but after a solid start to his career he was trending down and did not fit in their system. Canes took a risk on his potential and it turned out he fit perfectly in Rod's system but his last few years with the Rags he was not good.

 

[CanesFanBudMan]

He was getting minutes with them but he was not playing well at all. He always was a great skater and big guy with high upside at the position but after a solid start to his career he was trending down and did not fit in their system. Canes took a risk on his potential and it turned out he fit perfectly in Rod's system but his last few years with the Rags he was not good.

You said he wasn’t even a 2LD. This is moving the goalposts. Just bumped the Skjei thread I’d say more the 1/2 of HFCanes was on board with the trade with the main holdup being that the pick was not protected

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

You said he wasn’t even a 2LD. This is moving the goalposts. Just bumped the Skjei thread I’d say more the 1/2 of HFCanes was on board with the trade with the main holdup being that the pick was not protected

I never said that lol

 

[CanesFanBudMan]

I never said that lol

Lol sorry not you, but you did defend the post that said that

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

I remember the Skjei trade very well, and I remember being indifferent to it back then. The Canes bought extremely low on Skjei primarily because the Skjei-Trouba pairing had some of the worst metrics for any high-minute pairing in the NHL at the time. If you really look into it, a lot of that was because their entire defense was a dumpster fire back then (with only Fox as a somewhat-positive player).

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

A. if Skjei was anything more than a 1D or 2D by minutes NYR wouldnt have traded him. so call it moving the goal posts but I stand by he wasnt even their 2D. Teams hunting for the playoffs dont make those moves if he truly was a top 4 LHD in their eyes.

B. no receipts for madeupname in that thread.

C. Canesfansbudman trying to say our LHD wasnt deep. We had Forsling waiting right there and we wouldnt let him.

we got super lucky with the trade though. We were a quarter of an inch from missing a pick in that draft and eventually Jarvis.

 

[chaz4hockey]

I know that everyone is clowning me about my opinion on Kevin Hayes, but as ridiculously exaggerated as my original point was about Philly's 1st round pick, I think that it still holds true that the Canes have a huge opportunity with the accrued cap space to potentially acquire more draft capital. Especially when it comes to the bottom pair, there are several teams out there that took bad UFA bets for their top-4 defense but used those contracts on players that may still be serviceable on a bottom pair.

'23 is supposed to be a great draft year. Accumulating draft assets would continue to long term viability of the franchise (presuming they make the right draft picks of course)

Question is: how deep does the draft go or is it highly rated because of the top end guys?

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

A. if Skjei was anything more than a 1D or 2D by minutes NYR wouldnt have traded him. so call it moving the goal posts but I stand by he wasnt even their 2D. Teams hunting for the playoffs dont make those moves if he truly was a top 4 LHD in their eyes.

C'mon.

In 17-18: Skjei was 3rd among Ranger's defensemen with 21 min TOI/GP
in 18-19: Skjei was 1st among Ranger's defensemen with 21:32 min TOI/GP
In 19-20: Skjei was 2nd amont Ranger's defensemen with 20:31 min TOI/GP

He was a top 4 D in NY. Teams trade guys for lots of reasons. If you remember, the Rangers were in a re-tooling phase. They had 78 points and a -45 goal differential the season before. If it wasn't for the extended play-ins due to Covid, they weren't making the playoffs that year and they knew it.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

C'mon.

In 17-18: Skjei was 3rd among Ranger's defensemen with 21 min TOI/GP
in 18-19: Skjei was 1st among Ranger's defensemen with 21:32 min TOI/GP
In 19-20: Skjei was 2nd amont Ranger's defensemen with 20:31 min TOI/GP

He was a top 4 D in NY. Teams trade guys for lots of reasons. If you remember, the Rangers were in a re-tooling phase. They had 78 points and a -45 goal differential the season before. If it wasn't for the extended play-ins due to Covid, they weren't making the playoffs that year and they knew it.

I addressed the TOI point. Obviously they didn’t believe he was a top 4 material.

we were out of the playoffs in January of 19. Would we have traded Slavin? Slavin and Dougie were really bad metrics wise at that point too. No of course not, we believed Slavin was a top 4 defender and those are hard to replace.

 

[bleedgreen]

C'mon.

In 17-18: Skjei was 3rd among Ranger's defensemen with 21 min TOI/GP
in 18-19: Skjei was 1st among Ranger's defensemen with 21:32 min TOI/GP
In 19-20: Skjei was 2nd amont Ranger's defensemen with 20:31 min TOI/GP

He was a top 4 D in NY. Teams trade guys for lots of reasons. If you remember, the Rangers were in a re-tooling phase. They had 78 points and a -45 goal differential the season before. If it wasn't for the extended play-ins due to Covid, they weren't making the playoffs that year and they knew it.

He was on the block because something about their d shape had changed moving forward and they had to move out salary. He was the odd man out, I wish my memory served me better. His development had stalled that year but they had absolutely viewed him as a top four that got caught up in their numbers game moving forward. I forget if it was Trouba that necessitated it.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I addressed the TOI point. Obviously they didn’t believe he was a top 4 material

Just because you addressed the TOI point, doesn't make your statement correct. The coach decides which players play to give them the best chance to win and for 3 straight seasons the coach played him in the top 4. There's no denying that.

As to "Obviously they didn't think he was top 4 material", that's speculation on your part, because the facts show they did play him in the top 4. Teams trade guys all the time for reasons that aren't directly related to what the player is or isn't at the time. We traded Faulk when he was clearly a top 4 because we didn't want to sign him to that long term extension. It didn't mean that we didn't think he was top 4. I remember distinctly at the time the Ranger's fans talking about need to shed cap without paying a team to shed the cap and thus trading Skjei allowed them to do that. They also had more depth coming on defense (got Fox for free), Lindgren was trending well and they had just traded for Trouba so it made him more expendable and a way for them to free up cap.

A team can think a guy is top 4 and still trade him. It happens in the NHL often.

He was on the block because something about their d shape had changed moving forward and they had to move out salary. He was the odd man out, I wish my memory served me better. His development had stalled that year but they had absolutely viewed him as a top four that got caught up in their numbers game moving forward. I forget if it was Trouba that necessitated it.

Yep. going back to a Ranger's fan post in the trade thread:

Which Rangers fans don't like the trade? Most are ecstatic. Not because Brady Skjei is a terrible player (he isn't), but because we really needed to shed some cap and we were able to do so without attaching a sweetener, and in fact were able to add a pick that will probably be in the low 20's or so. Brady could be a solid player for the Canes, and even if he is, the trade still made a lot of sense for NYR.

They needed to shed cap.
They had Adam Fox Fall into their lap
They had just signed Trouba
Lindgren was showing signs of being top 4 capable.

He was odd man out in NY, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a top 4 player.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Just because you addressed the TOI point, doesn't make your statement correct. The coach decides which players play to give them the best chance to win and for 3 straight seasons the coach played him in the top 4. There's no denying that.

As to "Obviously they didn't think he was top 4 material", that's speculation on your part, because the facts show they did play him in the top 4. Teams trade guys all the time for reasons that aren't directly related to what the player is or isn't at the time. We traded Faulk when he was clearly a top 4 because we didn't want to sign him to that long term extension. It didn't mean that we didn't think he was top 4. I remember distinctly at the time the Ranger's fans talking about need to shed cap without paying a team to shed the cap and thus trading Skjei allowed them to do that. They also had more depth coming on defense (got Fox for free), Lindgren was trending well and they had just traded for Trouba so it made him more expendable and a way for them to free up cap.

A team can think a guy is top 4 and still trade him. It happens in the NHL often.


Yep. going back to a Ranger's fan post in the thread.



They needed to shed cap.
They had Adam Fox Fall into their lap
They had just signed Trouba
Lindgren was showing signs of being top 4 capable.

He was odd man out in NY, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a top 4 player.

in the off-season, maybe. rentals, okay sure. Guys with term, only when their team has little future for success Skjei was none of that. It was a underperforming defender that they needed to move because he wasnt playing up to his contract or position. again despite his TOI the team didnt view him as deserving that TOI or position.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

in the off-season, maybe. rentals, okay sure. Guys with term, only when their team has little future for success Skjei was none of that. It was a underperforming defender that they needed to move because he wasnt playing up to his contract or position. again despite his TOI the team didnt view him as deserving that TOI or position.

I get that you keep saying that about TOI because the facts aren't on your side, but the coach kept playing him in the top 4, thus he was top 4. If his play wasn't top 4, the coach wouldn't play him there, yet he did.

There were factors other than just his play that led to the trade.
1) His contract and the Ranger's need to shed cap
2) where the Ranger's were at the time (1 year post a rebuild and likely not to make the playoffs).
3) The emergency of Fox and Lindgren gave them the opportunity to clear up some cap space.

Ranger's knew they weren't likely going to make the playoffs, or even if they did, go far in the playoffs and found a chance to clear cap and get a pick, so they moved one of their top 4 defensemen to do so. Not overly complicated.

 

[Sigurd]

More of the same:

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

My personal ditch digging/60 is pretty decent, maybe I could be brought in for some consulting work.

Funny that I read this today re: Jarvis.

Mailbag #53: Seth Jarvis | Carolina Hurricanes

How did he celebrate his 21st birthday? Why #24? What would he be doing if he weren't playing hockey?

www.nhl.com

Did you always dream of playing hockey? - @autumnobrien31

Yes. If you haven't noticed, I'm not very good at much else.


If you didn't play hockey, what would your job be? - @pinkhaircaniac

A construction worker.

His ditch digging / 60 might be pretty high. Not as high as a plumber, but still.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I’d do a 1st for McCabe at 50%. He’s a top 4 guy and having another one of those at $2m per year would be well worth a late 1st.

One thing about a 1st for McCabe that I wouldn't like, is that I think I'd rather spend our 1st on a goal scoring forward vs. a defenseman that we'd be playing on our 3rd pairing (even if he's capable of top 4). Some differences with the Skjei deal a few years ago:
1) we had 2 first round picks.
2) we also addressed a need at forward with the Trocheck deal in the same deadline.
3) We were desperate for defensemen with Pesce and Hamilton out for the season (Hamilton only made it back because of Covid delay, but we didn't know that at the time)
4) Even before the injuries, we needed a 2nd pairing LHD as Gardiner wasn't working out there and Edmundson was stop gap, so the move was addressing both a pressing short term and a long term need.

I don't have a problem with a McCabe deal in a vacuum as he would solidify the bottom pairing, would be able to play up in an injury and he has an extra year over Skjei/Pesce, but if it comes at the expense of upgrading the forwards, I feel like we're missing out. Of course, if both can be accomplished, then that's great.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Extension talks likely put the Canes in 2nd unless they change their organizational philosophy. We havent paid market value + yet

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

One thing about a 1st for McCabe that I wouldn't like, is that I think I'd rather spend our 1st on a goal scoring forward vs. a defenseman that we'd be playing on our 3rd pairing (even if he's capable of top 4). Some differences with the Skjei deal a few years ago:
1) we had 2 first round picks.
2) we also addressed a need at forward with the Trocheck deal in the same deadline.
3) We were desperate for defensemen with Pesce and Hamilton out for the season (Hamilton only made it back because of Covid delay, but we didn't know that at the time)
4) Even before the injuries, we needed a 2nd pairing LHD as Gardiner wasn't working out there and Edmundson was stop gap, so the move was addressing both a pressing short term and a long term need.

I don't have a problem with a McCabe deal in a vacuum as he would solidify the bottom pairing, would be able to play up in an injury and he has an extra year over Skjei/Pesce, but if it comes at the expense of upgrading the forwards, I feel like we're missing out. Of course, if both can be accomplished, then that's great.

I don't disagree that I'd prefer a deal for a scoring forward, but the reality is those deals are hard to come by, especially meeting some of the things our front office looks for (term, good value/distressed asset types). We could do a rental like that Tarasenko trade, but I personally am strongly against rentals so I'm not taking those types of deals into account.

So to acquire a scoring forward we'd have to go for someone like Meier. My issues with that are no term unless an extension is in place which doesn't seem likely, he's having his best season in a contract year so not only is his trade value at it's absolute highest but he'll be able to demand a big contract after the season. Yes he's an RFA but with the $10M QO, he's essentially a UFA in contract negotiations. And then we're trading more than just our 1st, a lot more.

If we can't acquire a scoring forward in a bigger deal (which I'm not counting on) then I much prefer trading our 1st for a retained McCabe than just keeping it and using it. One of my biggest things I'm keeping in mind on some of these potential deals is how a player is performing compared to their cap hit. McCabe whether on 2nd or 3rd pair would be far outperforming a $2M cap hit and a great contract to acquire. We need more of those as some of our current guys who are outperforming their current cap hits get bigger contracts. Another reason I loved the idea of going after Kuzmenko from Vancouver (if he would've signed a similar bridge deal with us). And well I guess that's still not off the table but seems like they're happy to keep him through their rebuild/retool even if it doesn't make much sense (in my opinion).

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

McCabe was a deal before his name started catching fire. Too much to acquire a third defender at this point.

 

[Canes]

More of the same:

We don't need no stinkin' Timo Meier to get to the playoffs or 2nd round year after year anyway.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

I would love to see edmonton sell their soul for Karlsson. It would be the most basketball esque thing to do to try to win with 3 really good players, 2 good extras and ton of nothing.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Extension talks likely put the Canes in 2nd unless they change their organizational philosophy. We havent paid market value + yet

I hate to be a negative Nancy Negan , but I was thinking the same thing. For Meier to sign any extension, it's likely going to start with a 9, or he'll just take his qualifying offer and become a UFA the next year. The ability to sign an 8 year deal isn't much leverage in his situation, because he can take 1 year at $10M and sign a 7 year deal at $9M+ in UFA and still come out ahead.

I know many say the Canes front office would treat him differently as he's not 28+ and/or it's an inflection point for the Canes where they'll make a move like that, but until I see them do it, I'm skeptical. Thus I think we will have a tough time in a Meier deal. Hope I'm wrong, but that's how I see it.

 

[Canes]

I hate to be a negative Nancy Negan , but I was thinking the same thing. For Meier to sign any extension, it's likely going to start with a 9, or he'll just take his qualifying offer and become a UFA the next year. The ability to sign an 8 year deal isn't much leverage in his situation, because he can take 1 year at $10M and sign a 7 year deal at $9M+ in UFA and still come out ahead.

I know many say the Canes front office would treat him differently as he's not 28+ and/or it's an inflection point for the Canes where they'll make a move like that, but until I see them do it, I'm skeptical. Thus I think we will have a tough time in a Meier deal. Hope I'm wrong, but that's how I see it.

Trying to fit him into our cap structure is definitely overkill if you just want to make the playoffs and win a series or two every couple of years. I support Dundell fully as I am a regular coupon user myself.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

We don't need no stinkin' Timo Meier to get to the playoffs or 2nd round year after year anyway.

Well then, enjoy your annual 1st round exit.

 

[MinJaBen]

I hate to be a negative Nancy Negan , but I was thinking the same thing. For Meier to sign any extension, it's likely going to start with a 9, or he'll just take his qualifying offer and become a UFA the next year. The ability to sign an 8 year deal isn't much leverage in his situation, because he can take 1 year at $10M and sign a 7 year deal at $9M+ in UFA and still come out ahead.

I know many say the Canes front office would treat him differently as he's not 28+ and/or it's an inflection point for the Canes where they'll make a move like that, but until I see them do it, I'm skeptical. Thus I think we will have a tough time in a Meier deal. Hope I'm wrong, but that's how I see it.

I get this train of thought, but I don’t see how this thought squares with their pursuit of Tkachuk. Do you think they were ignorant of the contract that was need there, or do you think that they were prepared to trade Necas for one year of his QO and then roll the dice?

I think there are two tiers of contracts they are willing sign: young super star players at UFA, and everyone else. That first tier is higher and something we haven’t seen them do yet. Hard to say what they will and won’t do.