All Purpose Trade/Roster Building Thread XII - The UFA frenzy aftermath

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

I also don't know what Hoglander's game is like. He's a small feller...is he really suited for 3rd line duties with the Moose?

The reason why I think that Hoglander would be a good buy-low is because if everything pans out (and I mean everything, making it a bit of a long-shot), he could be Teravainen's successor. Both are similarly-sized and offensively skilled, though Hoglander isn't as strong defensively as Turbo. I'm not sure if his game translates to a bottom-6, but the reason that you acquire him is for that top-6 potential.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

If you're holding out hope to have a 2C like Malkin, Backstrom, Point, etc then you're gonna be waiting a while. I get what you're saying but a lot of those 2C's are really 1C's it's just the team lucked into a great situation. Koko is never going to be a Malkin but if he can to maybe Schenn/Carter levels then we would be good.

That’s what I’m saying. I think our 2c, needs to be at least at that level, not a Malkin level. It’s not impossible to win a cup without that, as Chicago did, it just makes it that much harder.

Fair enough but I still don't know what you'd have preferred we did with the 1st and the 3rd and the cap space

I’ll respond in a pm later on so not to divert this thread any further.

 

[Ole Gil]

First. KK will not be Jordo-like on defense. Not many Cs are.

It's easy to talk about Selke like defense the past 2 or 3 years with those guys. (Last year was an outlier offensively for his line). Don't recall his line as good on D with Svech on wing let alone the ragtag bunch in the lean years. Then, he never really became the point producer he was signed for. And this is over many, many years. Let's add in his aversion to any kind of relentless net front presence even with his big frame.

Let's not equate KK to J Staal please. At least until KK has a few more years under his belt.

Guy was matching up against #1 lines every night with Patrick Dwyer on his wing, and still coming out a + player.

I don't think we'll ever know what Jordan could have been offensively. His job has always been to get the puck, get it deep, and keep it until Crosby/McDavid/Panarin/Kane/etc... need to make a change.

 

[AD Skinner]

Hoglander was born to be a cane

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

Guy was matching up against #1 lines every night with Patrick Dwyer on his wing, and still coming out a + player.

I don't think we'll ever know what Jordan could have been offensively. His job has always been to get the puck, get it deep, and keep it until Crosby/McDavid/Panarin/Kane/etc... need to make a change.

Perhaps. But there's a reason most all here post "hands of stone" or "yep, right into the crest" when he shoots. A I as I posted above, the guy, with his body, does not often make for a net front presence for rebounds or tips and such. I'm not a hater. He plays an important role. Just don't think he would ever be that major an offensive force.

 

[Unsustainable]

I’ll preface this with, Jordan Staal has been a solid player for the Canes.

However, I think if he decides to test the free agency and move on from here, it wouldn’t be the worst thing for us. If he wants to stay at a reduced cap, that would be fine.

That would open up the 2c to competition, then KK at his cap at the 3c if say Drury beats him out of 2cz

 

[Lempo]

I'm sorry, but if Nils Hoglander becomes a Cane, the odds of my survival are very poor.

 

[Vagrant]

my takes on KK are obviously pretty far in the minority, but where is this assertion he's anywhere on the same planet defensively as Jordan? this is a player that has never started 40% of his shifts in the defensive zone yet in his career. hovering around 60% offensive zone starts and above is sheltering and poor faceoff ability. last year was the first year he was acceptable on faceoffs. he was posting sub 48%, as low as 42%, when the habs were giving him line appropriate faceoffs. Jordan wasn't great early in his career either, but in Carolina he's never been below 50%. Jordan finished 13th in Selke voting at 18 and 3rd at 21. he started 64.4% of his shifts in the defensive zone at 19. he had 7.3 defensive point shares at the end of his 21 year old season. KK was such an elite defender that the habs started him 68.1% of the time in the offensive zone at 18 and 66% at 19. I have never once heard anyone leaguewide recognize KK as a defensive center. the idea that he's Jordan Staal of all people... there's nothing at all to support it.

I feel like I am in an alternate universe about this player. he's not been $4.5 million good since he's been here. look up the statistical similarities between KK and Oscar Lindblom as far as career trajectory and production. that's the neighborhood of what he has produced in his career, and honestly Lindblom has been trusted enough to start below 47% in the offensive zone and still has production pretty consistent with KK. he comes in at the whopping price of $2.5 million against the cap.

am I on too much or too little drugs? does this make sense to anyone else?

 

[NotOpie]

Just a few clarifications on the points outlined here. 1st, speaking of Jack Drury. This is a player that has been given 1/100th, statistically, the opportunity to perform as Kotkaniemi.

Picking up the Kotkaniemi/Drury thread from yesterday.....I think it is misplaced to assume that Kotkaniemi is taking Drury's spot. Drury was always auditioning for the 4C role for this season. Noesen is the guy that took Drury's roster spot. And for the life of me, I'm not sure why. He didn't outplay him in the preseason (both had about the same type of preseason). And Drury could easily slide in as a wing which he often played in college. The Stepan pick up sealed Jack's fate, but I'd have been much more satisfied if Drury had been at least given a few early season games as 4C. Perhaps it was Noesen's right shot, but he's basically redundant and can't play in the middle.

 

[Canes]

my takes on KK are obviously pretty far in the minority, but where is this assertion he's anywhere on the same planet defensively as Jordan? this is a player that has never started 40% of his shifts in the defensive zone yet in his career. hovering around 60% offensive zone starts and above is sheltering and poor faceoff ability. last year was the first year he was acceptable on faceoffs. he was posting sub 48%, as low as 42%, when the habs were giving him line appropriate faceoffs. Jordan wasn't great early in his career either, but in Carolina he's never been below 50%. Jordan finished 13th in Selke voting at 18 and 3rd at 21. he started 64.4% of his shifts in the defensive zone at 19. he had 7.3 defensive point shares at the end of his 21 year old season. KK was such an elite defender that the habs started him 68.1% of the time in the offensive zone at 18 and 66% at 19. I have never once heard anyone leaguewide recognize KK as a defensive center. the idea that he's Jordan Staal of all people... there's nothing at all to support it.

I feel like I am in an alternate universe about this player. he's not been $4.5 million good since he's been here. look up the statistical similarities between KK and Oscar Lindblom as far as career trajectory and production. that's the neighborhood of what he has produced in his career, and honestly Lindblom has been trusted enough to start below 47% in the offensive zone and still has production pretty consistent with KK. he comes in at the whopping price of $2.5 million against the cap.

am I on too much or too little drugs? does this make sense to anyone else?

The elephant in the room is the reason we acquired him in the first place. It wasn't exactly his production or it being a hockey move. The Staal comparisons are obviously nonsense.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

The elephant in the room is the reason we acquired him in the first place. It wasn't exactly his production or it being a hockey move. The Staal comparisons are obviously nonsense.

You mean cuz the other deals fell through for a month?

 

[Vagrant]

Picking up the Kotkaniemi/Drury thread from yesterday.....I think it is misplaced to assume that Kotkaniemi is taking Drury's spot. Drury was always auditioning for the 4C role for this season. Noesen is the guy that took Drury's roster spot. And for the life of me, I'm not sure why. He didn't outplay him in the preseason (both had about the same type of preseason). And Drury could easily slide in as a wing which he often played in college. The Stepan pick up sealed Jack's fate, but I'd have been much more satisfied if Drury had been at least given a few early season games as 4C. Perhaps it was Noesen's right shot, but he's basically redundant and can't play in the middle.

I should clarify that drury only came up for me because the similarity in their ages was highlighted as sort of a "look how far advanced he is compared to our perception of drury," type thing and less as me being outraged that KK was playing and drury wasn't. there's a lot of reasons for why that is the case, but performance might not even be in the top 3. my defense was that how are we supposed to know how advanced drury is against KK when we've never seen drury get even remotely the same opportunity. just viewing those two players in a vacuum. drury has beat down everything that was put in front of him, even when his shot wasn't going in the SHL he found a way to stay productive. I like noesen a lot for what he can do on a powerplay and that probably helped make the choice for RB to get a right shot out there like him after scoring near 50 in the minors hoping some of that would translate. I was, and am, still a little miffed we didn't find a spot for him but if the intentions are as we say they are in terms of being kind of cup or bust then we need to be vet heavy and reliable before dynamic in the bottom six.

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

my takes on KK are obviously pretty far in the minority, but where is this assertion he's anywhere on the same planet defensively as Jordan?

am I on too much or too little drugs? does this make sense to anyone else?

I don't believe anyone here has come close to making that assertion. Your assessment may be all well and good but perhaps that portabello you had for dinner was, er, something else.

 

[NotOpie]

I should clarify that drury only came up for me because the similarity in their ages was highlighted as sort of a "look how far advanced he is compared to our perception of drury," type thing and less as me being outraged that KK was playing and drury wasn't. there's a lot of reasons for why that is the case, but performance might not even be in the top 3. my defense was that how are we supposed to know how advanced drury is against KK when we've never seen drury get even remotely the same opportunity. just viewing those two players in a vacuum. drury has beat down everything that was put in front of him, even when his shot wasn't going in the SHL he found a way to stay productive. I like noesen a lot for what he can do on a powerplay and that probably helped make the choice for RB to get a right shot out there like him after scoring near 50 in the minors hoping some of that would translate. I was, and am, still a little miffed we didn't find a spot for him but if the intentions are as we say they are in terms of being kind of cup or bust then we need to be vet heavy and reliable before dynamic in the bottom six.

Yeah, I think Rod liked the right shot, liked his AHL production, but probably liked his 29 year old age best of all.

Noesen's taken 10 total shots in 5 games. I'm just not buying that he showed better/more than Drury. I think once Statsny was signed and Stepan was given the PTO, it was down to Noesen or Drury. And frankly given the Kase was on this team, had Noesen gotten sent down and Drury made the team out of camp, there's a good chance that Noesen gets called up to fill Kase's roster spot.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I should clarify that drury only came up for me because the similarity in their ages was highlighted as sort of a "look how far advanced he is compared to our perception of drury," type thing and less as me being outraged that KK was playing and drury wasn't. there's a lot of reasons for why that is the case, but performance might not even be in the top 3. my defense was that how are we supposed to know how advanced drury is against KK when we've never seen drury get even remotely the same opportunity. just viewing those two players in a vacuum. drury has beat down everything that was put in front of him, even when his shot wasn't going in the SHL he found a way to stay productive. I like noesen a lot for what he can do on a powerplay and that probably helped make the choice for RB to get a right shot out there like him after scoring near 50 in the minors hoping some of that would translate. I was, and am, still a little miffed we didn't find a spot for him but if the intentions are as we say they are in terms of being kind of cup or bust then we need to be vet heavy and reliable before dynamic in the bottom six.

To be clear my intent behind the comparison to Drury’s age was not to say “look how far ahead of Drury he is” but rather to discourage people from thinking about KK as a finished product just because of his long tenure in the league. He’s a young, young kid, and I picked a guy we are all excited about as a comparison solely for age purposes (I almost picked Honka instead, KK is younger than him too). He’s got just as much “room to grow”, if not more, than Drury (given he’s younger). Certainly not to take away from Drury, just to help remind of context since I think we’d all be fine if Drury had some growing pains because “he’s just a kid” or whatever. It’s easy to forget given it’s his 5th season but KK was almost as young as a draft-eligible guy can be and will not turn 23 until next offseason.

 

[chaz4hockey]

I’m such a dork I can tell from watching. Koko went from the high lie p92 that’s Bauer’s take on the old Easton Sakic (it’s actually pretty different) to another current popular pattern the p28 which has a much lower lie. It suits his balance when he’s skating around, and now he carries the puck further from his body which is the natural result. I think part of the reason he has had such a slow release is that he tends to double clutch the puck when he catches it. I think the higher lie which raises your back elbow gets in the way especially when you use a longer stick like he does. Maybe this helps the shot, maybe it doesn’t. It’s helped his overall balance a bit though. The pattern itself is straighter through the majority of the blade with a toe hook. For shooting it’s more of a specialty tool whereas before the p92 is more of a C shape which has one big pocket to it.

Necas did the opposite last year, he always used the p28 which carries the puck further from the body. He switched to the p92. Necas struggled in the pros with the p28 because he was putting the puck too close to the dman as he tried to sprint around. The p92 helped him keep the puck closer to his feet which greatly helped his puck control. It was a good choice. I haven’t had good angles while paying attention to Necas this year but I believe he’s still using it.

Different things work for different people. In both cases the lie of the pattern is what the big change is, as it affects their posture while skating. They’re both good shooters so they can adjust to the curve itself pretty easily, which is what amateurs would be paying more attention to. Even the pros can help themselves by using something more suited to their posture and puck handling positions. It wouldn’t surprise me if neither one of them really understands what they changed, many pros don’t. Either a skills coach talked them into trying something more suited to them or they just tried one of their buddies sticks and liked it.

Hanifin did a similar thing while with us and it was awful for him, he went back to what he used to use after leaving us and I honestly think it helped him. Sometimes you’re trying to fix something that ain’t broke.

Interesting post. Wish that could have worked for my golf game. Lots and lots of clubs over 40 years and the same awful handicap.

btw: i would have preferred Drury on the roster versus acquiring Staany.

 

[Joe McGrath]

Perhaps. But there's a reason most all here post "hands of stone" or "yep, right into the crest" when he shoots. A I as I posted above, the guy, with his body, does not often make for a net front presence for rebounds or tips and such. I'm not a hater. He plays an important role. Just don't think he would ever be that major an offensive force.

Centers aren’t net front presences. Especially not defense first centers. As far as his hands of stone, he was never the same after he broke his wrist in Pittsburgh. He shot as well as Eric did off the rush, after that surgery just straight up disappeared.

 

[MinJaBen]

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

There's some speculation going on that part of the reason why Vancouver acquired Studnicka is because they know that trading Hoglander might be a necessary evil for acquiring a RHD, and because Studnicka is a decent insurance policy. I keep watching Vancouver, and man, they have firepower to work with, but no team with playoff aspirations should ever get that caved in defensively. They finally won a game against Seattle tonight, but it was a 5-4 game where they were well out-shot.

 

[spockBokk]

Might not bode well for the braintrust extracting any value out of Bear if a team isn’t willing to give up anything for him:

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

Might not bode well for the braintrust extracting any value out of Bear if a team isn’t willing to give up anything for him:

So were the discussions Buffalo asking if they could have him for free?

 

[MinJaBen]

So were the discussions Buffalo asking if they could have him for free?

We wanted "Future Considerations" but everyone knows you can get several good NHL players for that, so the Sabres declined.

 

[MadeUpName]

 

[spockBokk]

I suppose there’s still value in waiving him to be rid of the $2.2M if a team is willing to claim him. Still stinks though to potentially go from Hoglander as a return to nothing.

Cap space though is quite the asset to have.

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

Centers aren’t net front presences. Especially not defense first centers. As far as his hands of stone, he was never the same after he broke his wrist in Pittsburgh. He shot as well as Eric did off the rush, after that surgery just straight up disappeared.

Never knew Centers aren't supposed to go to the front of the net. Tro did while here. Aho seems to bang in a few up close every once in a while. But I will defer to your knowledge.

Hands of stone. Could care less of what did as a Pen. We are discussing the Jordo of the Canes in comparison of KK. And he got that big contract for more than his D game...