All purpose trade/roster building thread part 12

[bleedgreen]

We play different this year. It’s hard to be the only guy playing that way, you take yourself out of the flow and miss the play in front of you. The downside of trying to play skilled vs last years dump, chase, and grind.

It started with Ferland being who he is and Dehaan playing gritty and physical which Faulk fed off of. The whole team felt the effect. Rod can preach it’s all he wants, someone has to go out and be that way....and preferably be good at it.

 

[WreckingCrew]

Damn, tell Penguins fans that Murray isn't worth too much because he's been inconsistent the past 4 years as a starter and hasn't put up more than average starter numbers and they jump on you about it. Fine, if he's so great, WHY Y'ALL TRYING TO TRADE HIM? He had a couple great years as backup and playoff runs...then as a starter had a top 10 year, below average year, top 15 (average starter) year, and then we'll below-average this season. Apparently you're only supposed to value the good years and assume the bad ones are outliers

They're as bad as Leafs fans at overselling/overvaluing their players. Remember Bennett? Pouliot? Sheary? Simon? Maatta? Wilson? This year it's McCann & Murray

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

The threat of arbitration is not being talked about enough. An arbitrator is going to look at performance and comparables. A flat cap that teams didn't plan for causing a shortage in cap space or a pandemic causing havoc with team budgets is outside of that purview. Hypothetically, Murray on the free market is worth something in the $4-$5 mil range, maybe less if teams are skittish about his recent performance. In arbitration, $6 mil or more is a possibility, if an arbitrator looks at the thousand foot view.

It's not exclusive to any fanbase. Friedman's informed speculation about the possibility of Athanasiou and Montour not being qualified was met with disbelief.

 

[Lempo]

The threat of arbitration is not being talked about enough. An arbitrator is going to look at performance and comparables. A flat cap that teams didn't plan for causing a shortage in cap space or a pandemic causing havoc with team budgets is outside of that purview. Hypothetically, Murray on the free market is worth something in the $4-$5 mil range, maybe less if teams are skittish about his recent performance. In arbitration, $6 mil or more is a possibility, if an arbitrator looks at the thousand foot view.

It's not exclusive to any fanbase. Friedman's informed speculation about the possibility of Athanasiou and Montour not being qualified was met with disbelief.

Indeed; this bit from CBA 12.9 (g) is fun regarding that:

(iii) The following categories of evidence are inadmissible and shall not be
considered by the Salary Arbitrator:

(I) The financial condition of the Club or the League;

So the situation caused by Covid-19 wouldn't be allowed argument in Arbitration for the finding of the "normal time" Salary for a Player, which is, as Big Daddy Cane said, dependent of currently existing (RFA) SPCs of comparable Players:

(ii) The parties may offer evidence of the following:

(G) The compensation of any Player(s) who is alleged to be
comparable to the party Player, provided, however, that in
applying this or any of the above subparagraphs, the Salary
Arbitrator shall not consider a Player(s) to be comparable to the
party Player unless a party to the salary arbitration has contended
that the Player(s) is comparable; nor shall the Salary Arbitrator
consider the compensation or performance of a Player(s) unless a
party to the salary arbitration has contended that the Player(s) is
comparable.

"Juridically" it looks like the only concession regarding the salary may be the SPC Paragraph 17 where the reduction of League operations only is set as grounds for replacing the SPC Paragraph Salary with an agreed-on or arbitrated ad hoc salary.

I would go as far as say that a sensible RFA Agent should opt for Arbitration very easily instead of negotiating with Club if the Clubs are asking for reduced Salary due to the situation. As they probably would be.

Unless there is some way to change the rules for the time being.

 

[Daeavorn]

Dougie is on the trade block per TSN.

Picture from Canes reddit is attached since im on my phone.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Dougie is on the trade block per TSN.

Picture from Canes reddit is attached since im on my phone.

Trade bait =\= trade block.

its TSN’s speculation on who will be traded. Since Carolina is so ChEaP their top FAs will always be there.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Dougie is on the trade block per TSN.

Picture from Canes reddit is attached since im on my phone.

I would imagine they are just using our history of contracts in this regime and need for clicks to throw that out there. And it's not anything we didn't already know that he could be moved if they don't like the way things are heading contractually. I prefer to keep him, but I would absolutely deal him over losing him for nothing. It would fit with their philosophy of dmen are easy to find and acquire if they moved on and found the next Dougie.

As I've mentioned before, they've acquired in the last couple of years Edmundson, de Haan, Hamilton, Priskie, Keane, Gardiner, Vatanen, Skjei, Fox, Claesson, Forsling, Kaski, Wood and even when they were stacked managed to get guys with some potential to at least play in the league like Fora, Cajkovsky, Lintuniemi and the aforementioned Priskie to sign on. Of course we moved out some dmen in these deals and they didn't all pan out. But acquiring that many defensive darts in addition to the guys we already had locked up, and their philosophy seems to be pretty spot on.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

This FO has not been shy about engaging with the media. The story was the same with Lindholm and Faulk, albeit with a slightly different ending, in back to back years: we'll sit down with your representation draft weekend and if you don't accept our offer, we're probably going to trade you. When that time comes, it will likely be public. Until then, don't worry about it.

 

[hblueridgegal]

This FO has not been shy about engaging with the media. The story was the same with Lindholm and Faulk, albeit with a slightly different ending, in back to back years: we'll sit down with your representation draft weekend and if you don't accept our offer, we're probably going to trade you. When that time comes, it will likely be public. Until then, don't worry it.

Laying the groundwork for even more fan disappointment in 2020...I am banking on the selling point of he's collateral damage of Covid.

Y'all just forget that we promoted the h**l of him to rope you in. And, used his injury absence as our go-to excuse as the reason we under performed in 19-20 .

 

[AD Skinner]

If they lose dougie they lose the strong defense and the power play. He's as important as Aho, in my opinion. TVR edmundson and vatanen all probably walk this year and one of either skjei or Fleury probably gets taken by Seattle after that. There's all kinds of ways they could fill in after that turnover but that seems pretty unnecessary to go from one of the leagues most stacked D to a bunch of question marks in such a short time

 

[A Star is Burns]

I feel like some are more interesting in PR wins than actual wins, which we've improved on quite well the last couple of years. And we've had plenty of good PR points to go along with the rocky ones as well. The org still has a lot of the family vibe thanks to the young guys and Brindy but the org may not feel the need to hold on to every player at more than they are worth like they used to. We needed a little cutthroat in our lives to get out of our 1 playoff appearance in 12 years rut.

 

[hblueridgegal]

It's more that than they won't own what they do. DW and others doublespeak and spindoctoring gets old and it's disingenuous. The over the top social media squad hides and goes silent. The whole Forslund situation, for example, reeked of it.

 

[hblueridgegal]

Don't shoot the messenger...Pesce possibilities must really result in lots of clicks...

Winnipeg isn’t a top draw for many UFAs.
So the trade route would seem more realistic.
The Carolina Hurricanes would be a team of note here as far as potential trade partners for the Jets. And sources indicate Laine would be of great interest to Carolina if at all possible. Imagine countrymen Laine and Sebastian Aho together full-time? Wow.
So let’s have some fun with it. How could a deal like this work?
For starters, I think the Canes would part with centre Vincent Trocheck in the right deal. Trocheck, 27, has two more years on his contract at a decent $4.75-million cap hit and more importantly, he doesn’t have any no-trade protection.
Where the package starts to hit a roadblock is in finding a defenceman who could make it appealing enough for the Jets to even answer the phone. Jaccob Slavin is untouchable. Dougie Hamilton is an amazing blue-liner but with one year left on his deal before becoming UFA, that likely wouldn’t appeal to the Jets. They’ve been there, done that, as far as expiring deals and players leaving town.
Which is why if I’m Winnipeg in this fun exercise, I’m at least asking about Brett Pesce, signed for four more years at a very reasonable $4.025 million cap hit.
Now, I can tell you right now the Canes do not want to deal Pesce. They love his contract. I mean, love it.
But guess what, if Canes GM Don Waddell wants Jets GM Kevin Cheveldayoff to return his calls, you have to at least consider moving Pesce.

Goes on to say a Gardiner/Trocheck or Skjei/Trockeck offer won't cut it.

Wait and see approach for both, Dougie's agent and the team..with Pietrangelo being his expected comparable.

 

[AD Skinner]

I wouldn't do pesce for laine straight up. I'm not a laine hater but I don't think he puts the offense over the hump enough to offset losing pesce

 

[spockBokk]

Meh, if we’d talking Pesce to WPG, for me it’s Ehlers I want.

If they could somehow go Trocheck + Skjei + prospect for Laine, I’m ok with that. I don’t see why WPG would take on Gardiner (or Skjei for that matter). Trocheck + 13OA + Fleury maybe? Even then, I’m not the biggest Laine fan.

Pesce for Ehlers or bust for me.

 

[w e l o s t b o y s]

Laine's picked up this weird reputation around the league, even with his own fanbase that I can't imagine happens if he's not in a Canadian market. The kid is 22 and has a career LOW of 28 goals.

 

[DougieSmash]

Ehlers is amazing. Pass on Laine, doesn't seem good fit for Rod system at all.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I don't want to move on from Pesce. I'm a very big fan. But man, I'd be tempted in a Laine deal. Pesce's shoulder injury does give me some pause long term. Both Pesce and Trocheck? I think there might need to be a bit coming back our way at that point with Laine. Probably unlikely to happen anyways, but interesting to think about.

 

[Lempo]

Laine's picked up this weird reputation around the league, even with his own fanbase that I can't imagine happens if he's not in a Canadian market. The kid is 22 and has a career LOW of 28 goals.

After two seasons in the league, he was 2nd in goals in the league since the time of his entry. Ovi was 1st, and it was kind of close.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

That Lebrun article is just pure speculation. He even says so. I dont see us as trade partners with Winnipeg or Toronto.

Also, I am going to be mad if STL overpays for Pietrangelo. AP has to know STL is selling off the house to afford him. He has the control here.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Laine's picked up this weird reputation around the league, even with his own fanbase that I can't imagine happens if he's not in a Canadian market. The kid is 22 and has a career LOW of 28 goals.

He is like the Andruw Jones of Hockey. Andruw Jones was a very talented CF for the Braves. He was criticized by many people, fans and media members (Atlanta or otherwise) for not looking like he have 100%. Jones' play looked so effortless out there it made people think he wasnt trying. That is despite him being a gold glove CF and making some amazing defensive plays.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

He is like the Andruw Jones of Hockey. Andruw Jones was a very talented CF for the Braves. He was criticized by many people, fans and media members (Atlanta or otherwise) for not looking like he have 100%. Jones' play looked so effortless out there it made people think he wasnt trying. That is despite him being a gold glove CF and making some amazing defensive plays.

Uhhhh... I don’t see the comparison at all. Baseball for the most part isn’t an effort sport where you can just try harder and get better results. It’s a skill set thing. There’s no 4th liners in baseball. Even if you’re on the bench or bullpen it’s because you’re versatile and can play a bunch of positions or steal bases or have a great glove or for pitchers you can eat up innings or throw 98 mph for an inning or two.

In hockey you can earn a spot on a bottom pair or 4th line by having enough skill to be an NHL player but you work your ass off more than the other guy. Finish your checks, block shots, fight, etc.

Laine isn’t a Kovalev, Lemieux type player where everything is just so easy and it looks effortless and you don’t break a sweat. The guy has skills and can dangle a bit and make nice passes but his biggest weapon is his killer shot. When the dude is invisible during games it’s because he’s not being engaged in the play.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Uhhhh... I don’t see the comparison at all. Baseball for the most part isn’t an effort sport where you can just try harder and get better results. It’s a skill set thing. There’s no 4th liners in baseball. Even if you’re on the bench or bullpen it’s because you’re versatile and can play a bunch of positions or steal bases or have a great glove or for pitchers you can eat up innings or throw 98 mph for an inning or two.

In hockey you can earn a spot on a bottom pair or 4th line by having enough skill to be an NHL player but you work your ass off more than the other guy. Finish your checks, block shots, fight, etc.

Laine isn’t a Kovalev, Lemieux type player where everything is just so easy and it looks effortless and you don’t break a sweat. The guy has skills and can dangle a bit and make nice passes but his biggest weapon is his killer shot. When the dude is invisible during games it’s because he’s not being engaged in the play.

while im not a Baseball fanatic or anything the bolded is grossly false. If you dont try hard on defense you will get poor results. Trying harder (especially an outfielder) will get better results. Hitting, sure.

Im not comparing baseball to hockey though. I was comparing the reputations of the players. Laine is criticized for looking disengaged or not giving 100% (as the analogy). Laine probably gives more effort than people give him credit for (much like Andruw Jones) but his effortless looking stride and skill make him look lazy.

Either way. Since he has a reputation of not giving 100% on defense then we would see Rod stick him with Staal to cover up the mistakes. Then Laine dies. The end.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

while im not a Baseball fanatic or anything the bolded is grossly false. If you dont try hard on defense you will get poor results. Trying harder (especially an outfielder) will get better results. Hitting, sure.

Im not comparing baseball to hockey though. I was comparing the reputations of the players. Laine is criticized for looking disengaged or not giving 100% (as the analogy). Laine probably gives more effort than people give him credit for (much like Andruw Jones) but his effortless looking stride and skill make him look lazy.

Either way. Since he has a reputation of not giving 100% on defense then we would see Rod stick him with Staal to cover up the mistakes. Then Laine dies. The end.

Trying hard in any sport is important and I wasn’t saying you can just not care and get good results in baseball. What I’m saying is trying extra hard in baseball isn’t probably going to get you better results. Look at Ozzie Smith, Robinson Cano, Griffey Jr., Andrew Jones as you mentioned. When they’re playing defense it’s like they’re the Harlem globetrotters out there just doing their thing. They have great instincts, first step and positioning. Nothing to do with hustle and grit. And like you said, at the plate trying harder reeeeeally really doesn’t add anything, in fact it probably makes you a worse hitter overall.

In hockey unless you’re a in that rarefied air of a Lemieux or Lidstrom and can dominate the game with your eyes closed you better work your ass off like a Crosby or a Marchand even if you have tons of talent.

 

[NotOpie]

Ehlers is amazing. Pass on Laine, doesn't seem good fit for Rod system at all.

Ehlers/Trochek/Necas would be the fastest line in hockey....just sayin'