All purpose trade/roster building thread part 12

[The Stranger]

No. Hamilton is a top 10-15 defender in the NHL. Faulk is a decent 2nd pairing guy.

You quoted my post where I say there's a strong preference for Dougie over Faulk...then say "no"...and then proceed to express a strong preference for Dougie over Faulk.

If you think Dougie is a top 10-15 d-man and Faulk is a decent 2nd pairing guy...that's fine...it's a reasonable position...it doesn't refute my post.

 

[bleedgreen]

Yeah that also definitely seems to pass the eye test to me. Our defense is among the best of not the best at preventing transition chances because literally everyone (minus TVR and Eddy) is at least above average if not plus level at skating. But we struggle in stopping the type of greasy net front goals that physical teams feast on because we rely on breaking up passing lanes with our sticks in the defensive zone, not in muscling guys out from in front of the net. So the result is we give up what seems like a metric shit ton of net front rebound goals or, when the other team can get a pass through (which is easier on the PP and would help explain why the Bruins rape us there since that's their mo offensively) they get a complete gimmie that even I would be able to capitalize on from time to time.

It’s not a good thing that the goals we give up are the kind that are predominantly scored in the playoffs. The Bruins may be the best at it but pretty much anyone that remains would score those kinds of goals on us. To me it isn’t a goaltending issue, no goalie can really keep out those kind of goals consistently. Our d doesn’t d very well imo. We could use another CDH instead of another Edmunson.

 

[DaveG]

Last years roster had a different identity. Smack you in the mouth.

Hits: 2018-2019 Martinook 199, CdH 187, Ferland 182, Dougie 160, Faulk 156, McGinn 137, Foegele 126, Svech 123, Staal 122, etc
2019-2020 Staal: 149, Edmundson 118, Svech 116, McGinn 80, Martinook 72, Necas 65, Foegele 63

we went up 0.2 goals per game than last year.
PIMs are relatively close as well
Our Goals Against went up 0.22 per game (so no gain on goals scored and goals against)

not sure if we decided passing and puck movement was the best way out of the Metro or we decided to try something new.

We were on the path to have the same points as last year, both teams had a 1.2 points per game average. Our strength of schedule took a minor dip this year but our SRS went up by 7 positions to 6th. In the end the change didnt change our fortunes just stuck us with guys we want to move (Gardiner, Dzingel, etc)

I think we decided to go to more skill since 1 - we had skill in the pipeline anyway with Necas on his way up, and 2 - Boston showed in last year's playoffs that unless you have more skill than they do you can't beat them at their own game. St Louis did because they had better depth and skill, we got clowned because Boston had all 3 of depth, skill, and experience advantages. This year, going heavier on the skill but with a softer overall lineup, we were able to at least hang with Boston in this series every game but game 3, which still wasn't a complete blowout.

On the defense front it makes sense as well. We went from having 5 top four dmen last year to having 3 this year. Which became 2 and then 1 fairly quickly. Fleury's emergence helped mitigate the injuries, but we still went from 5 top four D to at most 3 in every game we played this year. Now, with Pesce coming back, we'll probably be back up to 4 next season, maybe even 5 if Skjei gets his head out of his ass.

 

[2Minutes4Surging]

Then maybe a goalie is not the solution, and any goalie would look bad in our system. Maybe we need to have a different conversation altogether. Maybe the solution to our goalie problem is shaking up the D-core and have some changes in coaching (which does not mean we should get rid of Rod, but maybe he needs to change his style).

I think they are playing the style they have been asked to play by the owner. Dundon said he wanted an exciting product on the ice and that he would rather lose 6-5 than win 2-1 or something like that..

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

I think we decided to go to more skill since 1 - we had skill in the pipeline anyway with Necas on his way up, and 2 - Boston showed in last year's playoffs that unless you have more skill than they do you can't beat them at their own game. St Louis did because they had better depth and skill, we got clowned because Boston had all 3 of depth, skill, and experience advantages. This year, going heavier on the skill but with a softer overall lineup, we were able to at least hang with Boston in this series every game but game 3, which still wasn't a complete blowout.

On the defense front it makes sense as well. We went from having 5 top four dmen last year to having 3 this year. Which became 2 and then 1 fairly quickly. Fleury's emergence helped mitigate the injuries, but we still went from 5 top four D to at most 3 in every game we played this year. Now, with Pesce coming back, we'll probably be back up to 4 next season, maybe even 5 if Skjei gets his head out of his ass.

true. The last year's team wasnt better and this year's team isnt worse. They are just different. Outside of hits, the difference in statistics was very small.

 

[Lempo]

I agree with those AAV's. $8M is a reasonable expectation and I think $8.5M is the max we will go. 5 years is probably the max the FO would like to go also. Do you think Dougie will ask for 7 years though?

It's tricky situation for Dougie.

If he signs long-term, he does it with the current corona year flat cap salary rates and may forfeit money by doing that instead of bridging himself over the troubled water by a short-term contract until the better times, new TV contract and cap rise.

But, the injury risk and the big contract not ever happening is always there.

It's not optimal time to be a pending UFA.

 

[DougieSmash]

If they decide to move Hamilton, there's a lot of *value* option that could be had on cheap (because the COVID) - Colin Miller, Barrie, Montour.

 

[Primetime8]

Who should they move to free up the money needed to re-sign Forslund?

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Who should they move to free up the money needed to re-sign Forslund?

Rona

 

[Helsinki Hurricanes]

Who should they move to free up the money needed to re-sign Forslund?

I heard Stormy the pig is a capdump. Who needs him when you have Hamilton the pig.

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

It's tricky situation for Dougie.

If he signs long-term, he does it with the current corona year flat cap salary rates and may forfeit money by doing that instead of bridging himself over the troubled water by a short-term contract until the better times, new TV contract and cap rise.

But, the injury risk and the big contract not ever happening is always there.

It's not optimal time to be a pending UFA.

Yes. But take the 8 mil/5 yr scenario. Say he nets 25% after taxes, agents, expenses, etc. That's 10 mil in the bank and Dougie does't seem to be a guy who goes around buying yachts and such and would be more the wise investor. Well, maybe some art but that can be an investment as well. Set for life.

Then there is the whole location differential thing. Taxes, cost of living, exchange rate, etc. If total $ is the goal then you have to cross off some cities like NYC, California, etc. I bet we are at leasti in the middle or lower end of that spectrum.

So I could see Dougie taking that deal especially with the uncertain future.

 

[The Stranger]

Now, with Pesce coming back, we'll probably be back up to 4 next season, maybe even 5 if Skjei gets his head out of his ass.

The Canes will have 5 top 4 d-men if Skjei comes up for air? Who are the other 4? Slavin, Dougie, Pesce, and...?

 

[DougieSmash]

The Canes will have 5 top 4 d-men if Skjei comes up for air? Who are the other 4? Slavin, Dougie, Pesce, and...?

How dare you.

Haydn THE FRANCHISE

 

[The Stranger]

How dare you.

Haydn THE FRANCHISE

I was wondering if Dougie was so elite that he counted for 2.

 

[DaveG]

The Canes will have 5 top 4 d-men if Skjei comes up for air? Who are the other 4? Slavin, Dougie, Pesce, and...?

Fleury.

Yeah I know small sample size but he stepped his game up big time when Pesce was injured late in the season when he finally got more ice time and carried that over if not improved even more in the playoffs.

 

[MinJaBen]

Fleury.

Yeah I know small sample size but he stepped his game up big time when Pesce was injured late I the season when he finally got more ice time and carried that over if not improved even more in the playoffs.

He looked more Slavin like than Slavin did in the Boston series. Easily the best player we had playing once Svech was out with the injury.

 

[Justshootmore]

Fleury.

Yeah I know small sample size but he stepped his game up big time when Pesce was injured late I the season when he finally got more ice time and carried that over if not improved even more in the playoffs.

I do not disagree with you, but I need to point out that I find it odd that Reimer gets all the blame not only for the missed poke check, but also for the whole momentum shift in Game 4, but people seem to ignore how Fleury looked horrible on that play as well.

 

[The Stranger]

I like Fleury...wouldn't call him a top 4 guy just yet...but I suppose it's fair to project.

If Fleury and his agent also view him now as a legit top 4 guy, what do they look for in his contract this summer/fall?

 

[GoldiFox]

I do not disagree with you, but I need to point out that I find it odd that Reimer gets all the blame not only for the missed poke check, but also for the whole momentum shift in Game 4, but people seem to ignore how Fleury looked horrible on that play as well.

I haven't seen much Reimer blaming individually for that game. The whole team fell apart in the 3rd.

Fleury misjudged DeBrusk's speed and the path of the chip-in resulting in a chance for Boston. Reimer handed a wide open net to DeBrusk on a silver platter and then got beat over and over and over again in the following minutes after looking solid all game. Defensemen on both sides get beat like that 10-20 times a game. A goalie makes a play that poor once a series (see: Halak to Niederreiter) and he did it at a critical point.

 

[Lempo]

I like Fleury...wouldn't call him a top 4 guy just yet...but I suppose it's fair to project.

If Fleury and his agent also view him now as a legit top 4 guy, what do they look for in his contract this summer/fall?

Let's see. He's 24, with July birthday, so he's three seasons away from UFA status eligibility. He's arbitration eligible.

I think a show me type of contract would still make a lot of sense to him.

 

[Lempo]

Holy F. I only now realize on top of Hamilton, we could extend Dzingel, McGinn, Martinook and Svechnikov, Reimer, Mrazek, Geekie and Bean as soon as this season gets wrapped up.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

If they decide to move Hamilton, there's a lot of *value* option that could be had on cheap (because the COVID) - Colin Miller, Barrie, Montour.

They all suck though.

 

[Crazydounut]

Holy F. I only now realize on top of Hamilton, we could extend Dzingel, McGinn, Martinook and Svechnikov, Reimer, Mrazek, Geekie and Bean as soon as this season gets wrapped up.

Yeah but Dougie and Svechnikov are the only two really worth keeping long-term out of that group

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Holy F. I only now realize on top of Hamilton, we could extend Dzingel, McGinn, Martinook and Svechnikov, Reimer, Mrazek, Geekie and Bean as soon as this season gets wrapped up.

I would make it easier to plan if we had Hamilton and Svech already locked in

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Yeah, that's accurate. I believe the 18-19 roster was superior to the 17-18 roster. It got some healthy push-back here (you labeled the opinion both dumb and lazy).

ha ha. Good times.

I cited, the addition of Svech via the draft, the removal of Darling from the roster, swapping Rask for Nino, and adding CdH via free agency. The opinion had nothing to do with the CGY trade.

I think the CDH signing was 100% related to the CGY trade. After moving Hanifin, the Canes had only Slavin as a LHD and needed to sign someone. We'll never know for sure, but my view is that if the trade never went down, Carolina wasn't signing CDH. Even so, IIRC, my biggest beef back then was that you were commenting on all the net gains, but not on the net losses (Lindholm, Hanifin, Skinner, etc..).

While fun to debate, the problem with these "what-ifs" is that we always assume the best of guys left. For instance, does Elias Lindholm (who I didn't want to trade) become an 80 point player if we didn't move him? or the same player he was in Carolina? Maybe, but not a guarantee. For sure I'd want an 80point Lindholm over Trochek in hindsight. Hanifin vs. Skjei? I don't care much.

Re: Faulk. IMO, we (even if Francis was GM) were not signing him to the contract he got (and I agree with that) so I think he was going to move one anyhow. So IMO, he was gone, whether it be this year or next. Do we assume if he stayed, Faulk was a 11G, 35P physical defenseman that we say, or the was in player STL wants to get rid of?

Any how, I think the team is better now than when they made the Calgary trade, BUT if they don't sign Dougie, then it's all for not and the trade will suck. The Gardiner signing didn't work out and was a bad one, at least on year one. I'm willing to give Skjei a full year before making any judgement. I liked what I saw from Trocheck, but again, small sample size.

I agree with Bleed that it's more a chemistry issue this year than it is a skill issue though. With all the new players, the team looked out of sorts for a lot of this year.[/QUOTE]