Rumor: All Purpose Trade Proposals, Speculation and Rumours - 2023/24

[Jet]

Their plans for Heinola are pretty clear, actually. It takes some pattern recognition, but perhaps you'll get there at some point.

The Jets draft prospects. Some of them are "their guys". These are the Rutgers, Perfettis, Sambergs, Stanleys, Connors and what have you. They get as many shots as they could ever ask for. People here scream at me for suggesting that our prospects shouldn't get roster spots above the fourth line for nothing, but it was totally OK to see Perfetti and Connor get top 6 ice time with no track record of anything. These guys become NHLers, because heck, it's pretty difficult not to when you get what you need.

The rest - imagine Vesalainen, Niku, Chisholm, Heinola, Petan - are "not their guys". They don't get shots, and if/when they get them, they are short in nature and end abruptly. The organisation never trusts them. As a result, they miss out on getting NHL experience during the years where you need to get it as a prospect to carve out a healthy career there. They get to their 25s with barely any games under their belt, because they have been stuck with an organisation who doesn't give them anything. When they finally escape, it's probably too little, too late - tough to make it in anywhere else, when you have been deprived of chances when it mattered. At 25, they start asking "why haven't you made it yet", not just "can you make it".

For some reason, calling these "not their guys" what they are gets a negative reaction around here, even though these boards as a whole are pretty good at identifying the prospects who belong to the first group. I imagine this is because it requires less thought to say "he bust, he bad" than to think about why certain types of our prospects predictably don't become much of anything. The busts haven't exactly fit just one mould as skaters, mind you.

In all likelihood, you refuse to understand this - or perhaps we need to wait for another couple of promising prospects bust in awfully similar conditions.

Thank you for fully fleshing out the fallacy that is this argument.

This shit is hogwash.

If you think an organization would draft a player and then intentionally somehow ruin them I don't know what to tell you.

Vesalainen, Niku, Petan, were trash when they got NHL shots. As a matter of fact, Vesalainen got a LOT of rope with the team and did jack shit with it.

The story of Heinola is yet to be fully written but was wrought with a combination of bad luck, bad timing, and him simply not being ready.

He's been hurt, had very poor TCs and exy's in the past and looked just not ready in his journey so far. This season was likely the one where he became at least a semi regular, but his extremely unlucky injury derailed that. Now we have 8 NHL defensemen including him - and 2 more that could play in Chisholm and Capobianco.

What would you do as a GM? Sure, we all bemoan that Stanley is still up, and I'm not saying the Jets org is perfect - they have the same blind spots as most other NHL teams, but this garbage that we're ruining our prospects is extremely misguided and simplistic.

PS: You think Kyle Connor became an NHL'er simply because he was just given an spot and that's the elixir? He played for the Moose too, and when he came up he scored his way into a regular roster spot.

 

[WolfHouse]

I don't know how much I agree with this. You have to show something prior to the NHL to get a top 6 spot. Vesalainen was not showing top 6 attributes and production in the AHL. Even then the Jets desperately tried to slavage him by trying to find a role for him in the top 9. They gave him half a season with Lowry and it didn't work.

There isn't a first rounder that they haven't bent over to give an opportunity to cough Stanley cough.

Ville will get his shot if he's not dealt.

As for the non first rounders, well was Petan going to outplay anyone in our top 6 at the time? We had KC, Ehlers, Laine, and Wheeler with Scheifee and Little at C. I'm sorry but he was stuck behind much better, the same as Roslovic.

I get that everyone loves prospects here, but they actually have to be better then what we have or project better then what we have to warrant looks above better players.

I think the biggest knock has been moving away from combos with chemistry. - was strange not to keep Roslo/Petan/Copp together longer or go deeper into the Copp/Ehlers chemistry

I think the Jets prospects were trapped in a 1A1B scoring and Checking line and then 5 minute energy line - where Mo wanted a vet C there to win face-offs - then add in the fact that Laine/Ehlers never really had chemistry with anyone other than Stas and its hard to be anything other than an Appleton.

 

[DRW204]

I guess people don't understand that some prospects get the jobs and more opportunities because they are simply better, saying samberg was favored when he went into training camp in a battle with stanley/heinola and won the job because he was the best of the 3 them and has only proved that he belongs in the nhl since is absolutely ridiculous

yup. poster in the chisholm thread was like "look at how dallas treats their young players" well shit if chisholm was the same caliber of heiskanen, or harley you might be on to something sherlock.

 

[WolfHouse]

I guess we will see how this theory fleshes our with Morgan Barron - he is showing that he could be more than a 4th liner... but if he seems to have been bumped by Kupari without much real reason

 

[Jet]

Those guys got their shots for the most part and failed. Vesalainen got nearly a full season before they admitted he wasn't an NHLer

He got a lot more than that.

 

[Jets 31]

After these games without Scheif, I expect a trade before mid-February - after watching two playoff series without Scheif, there's no way Chevy stands pat

Absolutely have to get a decent center especially when it looks like they aren't going to try Perfetti there this season.

 

[surixon]

I think the biggest knock has been moving away from combos with chemistry. - was strange not to keep Roslo/Petan/Copp together longer or go deeper into the Copp/Ehlers chemistry

I think the Jets prospects were trapped in a 1A1B scoring and Checking line and then 5 minute energy line - where Mo wanted a vet C there to win face-offs - then add in the fact that Laine/Ehlers never really had chemistry with anyone other than Stas and its hard to be anything other than an Appleton.

I don't disagree with this. We had a couple good combinations that we could have seen more of had we adopted a different bottom 6 philosophy. But for better or worse the org has elected to deploy a checking line as its third which further pushed out the top 6 tweeners.

 

[Mad Dog Tannen]

Wow. This Declan Chisholm thing has gone off the rails both ways.

There appears to be a camp that feels there is a conspiracy to not give Chisholm a shot or think Chisholm has some immense value. - I’m not part of that camp.

There appears to be a camp that feels Chisholm had ample opportunity to start and didn’t crack the roster so therefore isn’t an nhler. - I’m also not a part of this camp.

Honestly, I think Chisholm would likely make a bottom pairing on several teams today. Maybe peaks as a 4th d on a weaker team.

Why am I sad to see him “likely” go to another team today.

I think at 775k he is a better option than Schmidt at 6d. He would likely bring more offence - but that bar is low. And if we kept him it would likely signal Schmidt and Stanley are gone - both moves that would really give the team more flexibility this year regarding cap space.

At 6m you pretty much have to play Schmidt unless he is a huge def liability out there. He is good def and doesn’t get a lot of ice time. Hard to bench 6 mil for that.

Do I think the difference between starting Chisholm vs Achmidt outweighs the 775k vs 6m. Nope.

Hopefully Heinola plugs in that spot - but given the roster challenges injury and Heinola being waiver expempt I doubt it.

Seems to be hyperbole at both ends. Chisholm isn’t a superstar and some that wanted to see him play have reasons that have nothing to do with pétanque or postma never getting a “chance” or overvaluing Chisholm for what he is. He’s likely a cheaper Schmidt with maybe a better offensive upside. That’s all.

Oh man the petan days. That brings me back. lol.

 

[Crocket]

Heinola will almost certainly be playing soon. He's conditioning on the moose and playing well. Injuries are inevitable, Dillon is injured now. But I think Bones wants to see VH in Nate's spot.

Ville could play right side, he has the skill.

I've been disappointed in DeMelo this year.

 

[Mad Dog Tannen]

Heinola will almost certainly be playing soon. He's conditioning on the moose and playing well. Injuries are inevitable, Dillon is injured now. But I think Bones wants to see VH in Nate's spot.

Ville could play right side, he has the skill.

I've been disappointed in DeMelo this year.

The penalties he’s been taking lately. Yikes DeMelo.

He’s pretty reliable defensively though.

Pionk and Schmidt on the other hand have had glaring defensive miscues pretty consistently since late Dec/early Jan.

I’m hopeful Heinola will get ice time - with the log jam currently at d, him coming back from a major injury - and how much is left in the season I honestly wouldn’t be surprised at either outcome (he plays or he doesn’t). It might be dependant on trades in the coming weeks.

 

[Adam da bomb]

The penalties he’s been taking lately. Yikes DeMelo.

He’s pretty reliable defensively though.

Pionk and Schmidt on the other hand have had glaring defensive miscues pretty consistently since late Dec/early Jan.

I’m hopeful Heinola will get ice time - with the log jam currently at d, him coming back from a major injury - and how much is left in the season I honestly wouldn’t be surprised at either outcome (he plays or he doesn’t). It might be dependant on trades in the coming weeks.

Has Demelo really been taking a lot of penalties lately? I thought it was Dillion who got alot.

 

[surixon]

Heinola will almost certainly be playing soon. He's conditioning on the moose and playing well. Injuries are inevitable, Dillon is injured now. But I think Bones wants to see VH in Nate's spot.

Ville could play right side, he has the skill.

I've been disappointed in DeMelo this year.

Yeah, I've also found DeMelo's game to be not as good as its been the last few years. Might be why he hasn't been extended, the org may be looking for an upgrade there.

 

[DRW204]

Heinola will almost certainly be playing soon. He's conditioning on the moose and playing well. Injuries are inevitable, Dillon is injured now. But I think Bones wants to see VH in Nate's spot.

Ville could play right side, he has the skill.

I've been disappointed in DeMelo this year.

Ville has skill but hasn't translated in the nhl and his defending hasn't improved or been consistent at all. Considering age and experience level, his 19-20 showing was probably his best or most promising imo. That's 4-5 years ago now though. The Jets pair of Samberg-Schmidt has been V good this year too.

Has Demelo really been taking a lot of penalties lately? I thought it was Dillion who got alot.

He's 4th on the team in minors behind pionk, Morrissey and Dillon. Not much separates those 4 players though in the amount taken.

 

[Jet]

Has Demelo really been taking a lot of penalties lately? I thought it was Dillion who got alot.

I think the penalties are worse because of the type. Dillon's are usually borne of aggression - ofc you don't want to take penalties, but if you are because you're playing a heavy game, it's a bit easier to swallow.

I'm seeing Demelo take penalties because he is getting beaten, caught out of position, or is trying to recover from a giveaway. I don't think he's been as bad as some are saying, but he's definitely not the rock he's been in previous seasons.

 

[Keystone]

I agree with the sentiment of our “checking/ shutdown line” inhibiting integration of talented prospects. Although I personally would rather see Apples on the 4th line at times and that 3rd line W. sometimes used for rookies that have a defensive game as well.
I could easily see a scenario where the team moves on from Ehlers this offseason. Maybe because Nik wants to move on, we can’t afford to resign, or we are just creating opportunities for some young AHL talent.

 

[Wpgpage]

This could just be the Jets trying to do right by the player if they don't see a spot for him and know that by the time everyone is back from the brake Ville will be ready then Chis is what 8th on the depth chart? Maybe 9th?

His representatives may have asked for this. There is also the possibility that they do have a team interested but the other team isn't ready /able to take him on the NHL roster so they Jets try to sneak him down then execute the trade.

 

[LowLefty]

Yeah, I've also found DeMelo's game to be not as good as its been the last few years. Might be why he hasn't been extended, the org may be looking for an upgrade there.

IMO, he is what he is - a steady eddy dman that plays a fairly solid game.
I think we get what we are paying for (+) when you consider he is playing top pair minutes against the comp's best.
He has been better in the past - and he's been worse at times. But over all, we're probably getting our money's worth when you consider some of the other D contracts we have right now.

I'd agree that the org would probably love an upgrade and likely have for a while now - but they are tough to find.

As a side note, I'd like to see the org try to transition Samberg to the right side - I think he'd be a beauty playing with JoMo - he's basically another Demelo only a lot better.
We've seen Samberg take on more minutes in game situations lately when we lost a D in game - small sample but when added to his regular solid game on the 3rd pair, he's probably our second best dman if you were to rate these guys on their defensive game. I'd love to see him get a chance to prove that - assuming he could make that transition to the right.

Rambling a bit beyond your post but wanted to add a few things that I've been thinking about lately.

 

[WolfHouse]

I don't disagree with this. We had a couple good combinations that we could have seen more of had we adopted a different bottom 6 philosophy. But for better or worse the org has elected to deploy a checking line as its third which further pushed out the top 6 tweeners.

I'd really like to see gus-perfetti for more games

 

[Crocket]

Ville has skill but hasn't translated in the nhl and his defending hasn't improved or been consistent at all. Considering age and experience level, his 19-20 showing was probably his best or most promising imo. That's 4-5 years ago now though. The Jets pair of Samberg-Schmidt has been V good this year too.


He's 4th on the team in minors behind pionk, Morrissey and Dillon. Not much separates those 4 players though in the amount taken.

Heinola certainly made the team this year, he outplayed many in camp.

DeMelo gets untimely penalties, even if others get the same amount, that and he's been a giveaway machine for a while.

 

[Crocket]

Heinola is gonna get a chance but you have to consider Kyle Caponbianco, he's been a big point getter.
With Schmidt not contributing at all offensively, we have to look at our D for more offense. Heinola and Capo might be able to help there.

Is it time to put Samberg with Morrissey?

Could Chevy be looking for a right hand D?

I think a 2C that can also help on the pp might be Adam Henrique, he's a ufa and a really consistent guy.

 

[WolfHouse]

You have to admit that it's pretty funny to read this debate at a time when half the board is shitting on appleton who is on pace for his best season... like he's the prospect success story

 

[surixon]

IMO, he is what he is - a steady eddy dman that plays a fairly solid game.
I think we get what we are paying for (+) when you consider he is playing top pair minutes against the comp's best.
He has been better in the past - and he's been worse at times. But over all, we're probably getting our money's worth when you consider some of the other D contracts we have right now.

I'd agree that the org would probably love an upgrade and likely have for a while now - but they are tough to find.

As a side note, I'd like to see the org try to transition Samberg to the right side - I think he'd be a beauty playing with JoMo - he's basically another Demelo only a lot better.
We've seen Samberg take on more minutes in game situations lately when we lost a D in game - small sample but when added to his regular solid game on the 3rd pair, he's probably our second best dman if you were to rate these guys on their defensive game. I'd love to see him get a chance to prove that - assuming he could make that transition to the right.

Rambling a bit beyond your post but wanted to add a few things that I've been thinking about lately.

Your right, DeMelo does provide more value then his cap hit. It's one of the reasons I'm a bit surprised he's not signed yet. Figured he'd be Chevy's highest priority after Nino.

Interesting thoughts on Snerg. From a style of play and strength of game standpoint he'd be a very good fit if he can play his offside effectively.

That would open up a bottom pairing spot for Ville to work his way in.

 

[DRW204]

Heinola certainly made the team this year, he outplayed many in camp.

DeMelo gets untimely penalties, even if others get the same amount, that and he's been a giveaway machine for a while.

oh gee. well, wrap it up then. he outplayed many in training camp.... where vets notoriously aren't going hard or vs a bunch of non-NHLers. i don't think i've seen a training camp overemphasized as much as his. but i guess when your NHL showings as of late have been poor that's all you can hang your hat on.

we talkin' about practice training camp, not the game.

how about his actual NHL game-play against other NHL players at full-speed? you know when there's legit 2 points on the line? he had a couple good games last year and got worse and worse until he could not further be trusted. and he was a giveaway machine himself. the team has been trying to tell us what they thought of him or the other D prospects for years now but no one wants to believe them, maybe just maaaaybe the prospects aren't as good as HF thinks.

maybe he made major improvements this year. no idea since he unfortunately got hurt. however, fortunate for us: this team is probably the top defensive team in the NHL and had an illustrious GA streak. the team-defense overall has been unreal this year w/ all 3 pairings playing well, something i don't think many would've imagined given the Maurice era.

edit (felt i was a bit to negative lol):
look i don't think he's complete trash, there's been other factors that also contribute to lack of consistency (the starts and stops, sitting in the PB or missing out on game-action for extended periods of time). he's had good showings but overall i don't think he's been a "must have in the line-up" territory especially the way the team has been playing. a few years ago though - maybe they could have played him more. i had high hopes for heinola as a top-4D 3-4 years ago. his ahl & liiga numbers were always great and I even put him ahead of samberg at the time... however, that's ahl, in the nhl it's been a completely different story.

 

[LowLefty]

Your right, DeMelo does provide more value then his cap hit. It's one of the reasons I'm a bit surprised he's not signed yet. Figured he'd be Chevy's highest priority after Nino.

Interesting thoughts on Snerg. From a style of play and strength of game standpoint he'd be a very good fit if he can play his offside effectively.

That would open up a bottom pairing spot for Ville to work his way in.

Yeah, I think Samberg has earned a move up and that's the only way we can really open up space for the guys trying to break in.
I also think his fairly basic, no frills game might be easier to transition to his off wing - but there hasn't been anything from the org on that so who knows.

 

[surixon]

Wild of all teams claim Chisholm. Hope he can carve out a role for himself but dislike the team he ended up on.