Toggle sidebar

All Purpose Mitch Marner Talk II

  • Xenforo Cloud has upgraded us to version 2.3.6. Please report any issues you experience.
  • We are currently aware of "log in/security error" issues that are affecting some users. We apologize and ask for your patience as we try to get these issues fixed.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Throw More Waffles said:
Signing bonuses and front-loading are perks that players desperately want and are offered by (rich) gm's at the payoff of lowering the aav.

Marner received an outrageously player friendly contract. Every perk went to the player (unless you argue, lol, that Marner was signed for the purpose of trading in 2 years)... and not only did we not get any aav relief... he still has an overpaid aav. It's insane.
Click to expand...

But when he got his money shouldn't matter to you? His average, is his average.
If anything, owing less later in the contract makes him more moveable.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dekes For Days
glue said:
I know Marners cap hit will always be a point of contention for some throughout his contract and that’s fine. However at this point I am personally much more interested in seeing Marner be the best player he can be. His shot does look better this year so good on him for working on that. Where I may be in the minority is I dont think Marner has looked all that good this season so far. I’ve seen quite a few defensive lapses and his decision making at times has still been very off. The fact that he’s leading the league in points 6 games into the season where leafs have played more games then most teams means little to me. While I certainly believe he can be a perineal Art Ross threat, his overall game needs to be better. He’s still young and I think/hope he’ll get there
Click to expand...

I actually think his hockey decisions and hockey sense has been highlighted in the first 6 games. He's made several fantastic plays that were very small, but showed just how smart a hockey player he is. His hockey intelligence is ridiculous. He sometimes holds the puck a little too much, but for the most part, he puts the puck in places that control play for the leafs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DarkKnight
Throw More Waffles said:
They're only mutually beneficial if the end goal is to trade Marner after two years.
Click to expand...
It's beneficial to have options. It provides greater options and greater value within one of those options, with really no downside for a team with sufficient cash flow. It doesn't make anywhere close to the difference you claim. It's often utilized in high-tax areas to help counter that disadvantage.
 
OldTimeHockey said:
But when he got his money shouldn't matter to you? His average, is his average.
If anything, owing less later in the contract makes him more moveable.
Click to expand...
Player contracts are based on comparables. Things like signing bonuses/front loading are player friendly perks that are used to get their aav down. So when comparing Marner to his comparables, we need to consider term, aav, front-loading, and signing bonuses. ALL of those things are considered in the comparison.

Rantanen and Marner were VERY comparable. So if one of them made a lower aav at the same term, we could then consider additional perks such as front loading and signing bonuses. But when you see that Marner had a significantly HIGHER aav, MORE front-loaded, and Marner (not Rantanen) is paid almost ENTIRELY in signing bonuses... it shows just how horrible of a contract it is.
 
Throw More Waffles said:
Rantanen and Marner were VERY comparable.
Click to expand...
Actually Marner was considerably better than Rantanen, as you've been shown, and got an AAV that reflects that. They got similar front-loading. Marner got more signing bonuses to help counter the significant tax discrepancy. Marner fits well within his comparables.
 
  • Like
Reactions: horner
OldTimeHockey said:
I actually think his hockey decisions and hockey sense has been highlighted in the first 6 games. He's made several fantastic plays that were very small, but showed just how smart a hockey player he is. His hockey intelligence is ridiculous. He sometimes holds the puck a little too much, but for the most part, he puts the puck in places that control play for the leafs.
Click to expand...

Like I said, probably in the minority ;)

But I’ve noticed a few plays leading to rushes the other way and just brain fart moments. Pretty normal for most players, I just hate seeing it from him cause he’s that good
 
Dekes For Days said:
Actually Marner was considerably better than Rantanen, as you've been shown, and got an AAV that reflects that. They got similar front-loading. Marner got more signing bonuses to help counter the significant tax discrepancy. Marner fits well within his comparables.
Click to expand...
I'm not suggesting this but others have said when Rantanen got his 87 points in the 2018-19 Season which is when Marner got his 94 points, one difference is Rantanen only played in 74 games and Marner was able to play in all 82 games. So wouldn't his point pace be almost the same as Marner?
 
  • Like
Reactions: acrobaticgoalie
LeafsNation75 said:
I'm not suggesting this but others have said when Rantanen got his 87 points in the 2018-19 Season which is when Marner got his 94 points, one difference is Rantanen only played in 74 games and Marner was able to play in all 82 games. So wouldn't his point pace be almost the same as Marner?
Click to expand...
Games played is certainly an important factor to account for because it represents a difference in opportunity to put up a raw point total. The issue is, that's not the only factor that can significantly impact raw point totals, and while some Leaf fans may not like it, those factors are not ignored in real world negotiations. Rantanen is a good player, but his point totals are a bit of a mirage relative to Marner, because he has been a massive beneficiary of one of the biggest impacting factors - PP time, which Marner has been comparatively starved of relative to his historical and current peers.

Remember how we used pace with games played to create a more accurate comparison between two players with differing opportunity? We can do the same thing here with time on ice impacts, and see that Marner was producing at a level in 2018-2019 that, given Rantanen's ES and PP time on ice, would be about 110 points. Rantanen was producing at a 96 point pace. Marner's primary point production was insane that year as well.

It's quite odd that people will so quickly and without thought accept the impacts of games played discrepancies, but there is such massive pushback when acknowledging the impacts of time on ice discrepancies, even though it provides a much clearer picture.
 
Dekes For Days said:
Games played is certainly an important factor to account for because it represents a difference in opportunity to put up a raw point total. The issue is, that's not the only factor that can significantly impact raw point totals, and while some Leaf fans may not like it, those factors are not ignored in real world negotiations. Rantanen is a good player, but his point totals are a bit of a mirage relative to Marner, because he has been a massive beneficiary of one of the biggest impacting factors - PP time, which Marner has been comparatively starved of relative to his historical and current peers.

Remember how we used pace with games played to create a more accurate comparison between two players with differing opportunity? We can do the same thing here with time on ice impacts, and see that Marner was producing at a level in 2018-2019 that, given Rantanen's ES and PP time on ice, would be about 110 points. Rantanen was producing at a 96 point pace. Marner's primary point production was insane that year as well.

It's quite odd that people will so quickly and without thought accept the impacts of games played discrepancies, but there is such massive pushback when acknowledging the impacts of time on ice discrepancies, even though it provides a much clearer picture.
Click to expand...
In just the 2018-19 Season when Marner had 94 points and Rantanen had 87 points, I looked up their stats and was surprised that Marner only had 3 power goals, where as Rantanen had 16 power play goals.

Now when it comes to power play assists Marner had 18 and Rantanen had 17, so that's not much of a difference.
 
Throw More Waffles said:
Player contracts are based on comparables. Things like signing bonuses/front loading are player friendly perks that are used to get their aav down. So when comparing Marner to his comparables, we need to consider term, aav, front-loading, and signing bonuses. ALL of those things are considered in the comparison.

Rantanen and Marner were VERY comparable. So if one of them made a lower aav at the same term, we could then consider additional perks such as front loading and signing bonuses. But when you see that Marner had a significantly HIGHER aav, MORE front-loaded, and Marner (not Rantanen) is paid almost ENTIRELY in signing bonuses... it shows just how horrible of a contract it is.
Click to expand...

Hey, you can have an issue with the average of his contract all you want. The front loading to me means squat. I get where you're going, but I'm not sure that is should really make a difference. The only thing that effects the team is the average.
 
A lot of nonsense talk about contracts constantly when the kid has been our best player... and will continue to lead this team. This 8 point Mitchy isn't even him at full steam yet.

Still wasting this kids talents on the PK too. But whatever he can clearly keep his energy up for 25minutes on a good day.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DarkKnight
glue said:
Like I said, probably in the minority ;)

But I’ve noticed a few plays leading to rushes the other way and just brain fart moments. Pretty normal for most players, I just hate seeing it from him cause he’s that good
Click to expand...

Like I said, he holds the puck a little too long some times. I actually don't think it's a bad thing. It's leading to bad plays the odd time right now, but it's making him a better player. Every season, those poor decisions have gone down.
Part of the risk of not handling the puck like a hand grenade, is sometimes you lose it at the wrong time. That's the risk. But the puck is much better on your stick than it is being dumped in the corner.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Oscar Peterson, DarkKnight and Notsince67
OldTimeHockey said:
I actually think his hockey decisions and hockey sense has been highlighted in the first 6 games. He's made several fantastic plays that were very small, but showed just how smart a hockey player he is. His hockey intelligence is ridiculous. He sometimes holds the puck a little too much, but for the most part, he puts the puck in places that control play for the leafs.
Click to expand...
He makes so many smart little plays, which easily offset the odd error. I love watching the kid. His IQ is off the charts. What I find irritating here is halfwits continually “analyzing” the guy with their agendas and it is so at odds with what the pros perceive. I mean the NHL champ head coach said Marner is one of the smartest players he’s ever seen, but somehow that view gets buried by the mediocre commentary on social media. There’s a reason he leads the league in ice time for forwards, it isn’t a mistake.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Notsince67
LeafsNation75 said:
In just the 2018-19 Season when Marner had 94 points and Rantanen had 87 points, I looked up their stats and was surprised that Marner only had 3 power goals, where as Rantanen had 16 power play goals. Now when it comes to power play assists Marner had 18 and Rantanen had 17, so that's not much of a difference.
Click to expand...
Yes, which is why looking exclusively at raw points leads people to incorrect conclusions, and why it's so important to consider especially PP time. Raw PP points and PP time have extremely high correlation. Rantanen isn't getting extra PP points because he's a better PP player. Both Marner and Rantanen produced similarly on the PP that year (5.94 vs. 6.54 PP P/60), but because Rantanen was on a team that plays among the highest-penalty hockey in the league, and Marner plays on a team that plays among the lowest-penalty hockey in the league, they got vastly different time to produce on the PP (2:35 vs 4:05 PP TOI/GP). As a result, Rantanen's raw point totals are skewed in comparison by that difference in opportunity, masking his inferiority in all other game states, and inflating the perception of his PP abilities.

Just as we needed to adjust for games played as it represented significant differing opportunity, we must account for the significant difference in their PP time opportunity as well. Teams are paying for the production abilities of these superstar forwards - they are not paying them for a team stat.
 
OldTimeHockey said:
Like I said, he holds the puck a little too long some times. I actually don't think it's a bad thing. It's leading to bad plays the odd time right now, but it's making him a better player. Every season, those poor decisions have gone down.
Part of the risk of not handling the puck like a hand grenade, is sometimes you lose it at the wrong time. That's the risk. But the puck is much better on your stick than it is being dumped in the corner.
Click to expand...

Yeah I see your point. Appreciate the civility, some folks here get overly defensive about him or whoever is their favorite player on the team for that matter which I think is dumb. Purpose of the forum is to share and debate opinions. For the record I also believe his vision is unreal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ACC1224 and Lumberg
LeafsNation75 said:
In just the 2018-19 Season when Marner had 94 points and Rantanen had 87 points, I looked up their stats and was surprised that Marner only had 3 power goals, where as Rantanen had 16 power play goals.

Now when it comes to power play assists Marner had 18 and Rantanen had 17, so that's not much of a difference.
Click to expand...
What I think Dekes is saying is that regardless of their powerplay goals/assists, Rantanen received much more pp time in general. Sure their pp production is similar but Rantanen's is more inefficient looking at the overall ice-time he got in those situations.

Using a basketball analogy, if player A score 30 points in 30 minutes on 20 shots, and player B scores 30 points in 38 minutes on 25 shots, sure they both scored the same amount but player B had 8 more minutes of court time and 5 more shot attempts to get to that total. Projecting what player A could've scored with similar time and shots he would've outscored player B by a wide-margin. Player A is more efficient with the shots and time he receives.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Ad

Ad

Top Bottom