Speculation: All Purpose LA Kings 2013-14 Trade Speculation/Rumors Part IV

[KINGS17]

Unlike you, I'm keeping an open mind, and saying it's a possibility. Besides, where are you coming up with this "ring leader" nonsense? Who was the ring leader when Murray got fired?



Who cares about a ****in message? You can worry about the drama and the message. I only care about winning another cup.



Shocking!



How so?

I don't think you have an open mind at all. Your first response is to always blame the coach or the system.

I didn't say there was a ring leader, I said IF Sutter was being tuned out that there probably is one or two. Murray having to go was an entirely different situation that was well-explained by Face Wash.

How so?

Crappy undisciplined play leading to far too much time on the PK. Several guys not playing up to their regular standards for the last 20 games, and some even before that. This especially includes players like Brown, Richards, and Voynov.

BTW, if Dean fires Sutter there will be much more drama.

You want some more?

 

[HYORI 1963]

I don't think you have an open mind at all. Your first response is to always blame the coach or the system.

I didn't say there was a ring leader, I said IF Sutter was being tuned out that there probably is one or two. Murray having to go was an entirely different situation that was well-explained by Face Wash.

How so?

Crappy undisciplined play leading to far too much time on the PK. Several guys not playing up to their regular standards for the last 20 games, and some even before that. This especially includes players like Brown, Richards, and Voynov.

BTW, if Dean fires Sutter there will be much more drama.

You want some more?

So, you're saying the last 15-20 games are all players fault, and I'm saying the fault lies more so with Sutter than it does the players, and yet, you're the one that's more open minded?

 

[Herby]

I think you both are right and wrong.

Sutter is going nowhere this season, as K17 said, this has worked in the past and he won a cup two years ago, he has some breathing room.

However I don't agree with K17 saying that it sends the wrong message or anything like that. Sports is simple, it's a results oriented business, if at this time next season the Kings don't have atleast a top 20 offense then you can start to question what kind of team DS and DL have put together.

 

[eleventy]

I think you both are right and wrong.

Sutter is going nowhere this season, as K17 said, this has worked in the past and he won a cup two years ago, he has some breathing room.

However I don't agree with K17 saying that it sends the wrong message or anything like that. Sports is simple, it's a results oriented business, if at this time next season the Kings don't have atleast a top 20 offense then you can start to question what kind of team DS and DL have put together.

And really, top 20 is not a lot to ask for...

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

So, you're saying the last 15-20 games are all players fault, and I'm saying the fault lies more so with Sutter than it does the players, and yet, you're the one that's more open minded?

I think he adequately pointed out that it's the players LATELY that aren't performing but that it COULD be the function of the coach. I didn't see any absolutes. Both of you guys have pointed out possibilities so let's leave the attacks at home.

 

[lexlavender]

Breakouts are a huge deal...speed through the neutral zone is affected by that, bad luck has been involved (i.e.: Detroit), and guys not producing as we've been accustomed to. All have lead to this down turn. A Lack of discipline has also been a huge contributor. The Kings play a wear down style but they can't wear teams down when their best players have to be hard minutes killing more minor penalties than most other teams have to.

Look: I've always likened the Kings situation to the Lakers situation circa the late 90's. They had a young up and coming team (with Shaq & Kobe) learning how to play with an even-tempered X's and O's "teaching" coach named Del Harris. These players learned how to be professionals with Del, but despite having been to the NBA Finals once (with HOU) Del wasn't a "championship" coach. Del's fired after a sub-par start in 1998. The next season Phil is hired, brings in a boring uneventful but proven system (triangle) and the Lakers go to 7 NBA Finals and win 5 of them. The system didn't win it for them... their execution of the system, with the great veteran talent they had are what won it.

Same for the Kings...Terry Murray another even tempered X's and O's coach, teaches them about defensive hockey and the "value of checking", gets them to a certain point, then when the message grew stale as it did with Del Harris and the Lakers, Lombardi brings in a more aggressive system based more on breakouts and puck possession and clogging up the neutral zone without compromising defense...they bring in some offense (Carter) and the rest is history.

The Triangle is as old as basketball but when great players buy into an old but proven system...it doesn't matter, you'll win way more than you lose and win championships.

Same with the way the Kings play. Their system is older than Bobby Orr, and they won a championship with these guys, so it's proven. They just aren't executing. It's possible they may not have enough of the right talent to execute it properly, (although they did get off to the best start in franchise history hard as it might be to believe right now) and it's possible some guys may not be buying in right now, but while they're a boring hard team to watch play even when they win, I'm done criticizing the system. I've seen it work to a tee. I do think some talent adjustments need to be made and some guys need to step up or be sent out, but they need to execute better, that's for sure.

Pretty much this. Our system requires all players to buy in and be playing well. This leads to offense working well with the solid, tight defense. On the other side of the coin, the system is brutal when the team is playing badly. The lack of cheating offensively means that only really good chances, set up perfectly, will go in. Otherwise, nothing really happens. I personally don't see a problem with the system at even strength, but its the PP thats the real issue. If we're not playing well, and we get no breaks on even strength, then no momentum is generated. Thus the game becomes stagnant. The PP then is essential for generating momentum and offense, and is the part of the game that should really be an area where the players should be cheating, taking risks, and going at the net with a little doubt. If they don't, no momentum is generated more so (in fact, a weak PP can deflate momentum). At the same time, if we take stupid penalties, than we knee cap ourselves further.

In summary, the system relies on the players playing well, and the PP. If one isn't working, the other needs to be, or else nothing is getting done.

As a side note, I wouldn't mind a bit more cheating offensively, at least from a few players. I think those risks help generate meaningful possession and sometimes points. The idea is to temper our risk taking between none at all, like we are doing now, and too much, like Toronto, who have a **** show on their hands every night.

 

[HYORI 1963]

I think he adequately pointed out that it's the players LATELY that aren't performing but that it COULD be the function of the coach. I didn't see any absolutes. Both of you guys have pointed out possibilities so let's leave the attacks at home.

I'm saying the crappy play over the last 15-20 games is the players' fault.

Maybe I missed something, but this quote makes me think he's exclusively blaming the players.

 

[KINGS17]

I think you both are right and wrong.

Sutter is going nowhere this season, as K17 said, this has worked in the past and he won a cup two years ago, he has some breathing room.

However I don't agree with K17 saying that it sends the wrong message or anything like that. Sports is simple, it's a results oriented business, if at this time next season the Kings don't have atleast a top 20 offense then you can start to question what kind of team DS and DL have put together.

Yes, big difference between this time next season and now though. I think we both know that there will be a player or two traded before Sutter goes anywhere.

I think firing Sutter now or anytime this season would definitely send the wrong message. Sutter can only coach the talent that Dean has given him, and right now it's lacking a bit on the back end when it comes to creating transition offense.

 

[Reclamation Project]

Not looking forward to coming back to this after the Olympic break...

I want some ******* goals.

 

[Herby]

Well I am one of those people who agrees with Sutter that Kopitar and Carter should be together.

I think in order to beat Chicago and Anaheim the Kings are going to need that elite line. And with Carter and Kopitar you have the threat to score every time and Kopitar provides that Selke level defense that truly makes it an elite line, I have complete faith that they are the answer for line 1. The problem is the secondary scoring, the Kings are obviously going to get nothing from the bottom six, it's been years since Stoll as relevant, Lewis has no offensive game at all, Clifford is the worst player on the team, so we just have to accept that and go forward. The big problem with this team is the secondary scorers, there is no reason that Brown, Richards, Williams and Toffoli shouldn't be counted on to provide secondary scoring without leaching off Kopitar and Carter, but sadly they really haven't. It's not as if the Kings need those guys to be point per game players, the Kings are good enough defensively and with Quick that even 20 goals a piece would make a huge difference in the standings, but it's just amazing how bad these guys have been, Brown may not crack 30 points, Williams may not crack 40 and Richards may not get double digit goals while being the worst def forward on the team yet again.

 

[Ollie Weeks]

Well I am one of those people who agrees with Sutter that Kopitar and Carter should be together.

I think in order to beat Chicago and Anaheim the Kings are going to need that elite line. And with Carter and Kopitar you have the threat to score every time and Kopitar provides that Selke level defense that truly makes it an elite line, I have complete faith that they are the answer for line 1. The problem is the secondary scoring, the Kings are obviously going to get nothing from the bottom six, it's been years since Stoll as relevant, Lewis has no offensive game at all, Clifford is the worst player on the team, so we just have to accept that and go forward. The big problem with this team is the secondary scorers, there is no reason that Brown, Richards, Williams and Toffoli shouldn't be counted on to provide secondary scoring without leaching off Kopitar and Carter, but sadly they really haven't. It's not as if the Kings need those guys to be point per game players, the Kings are good enough defensively and with Quick that even 20 goals a piece would make a huge difference in the standings, but it's just amazing how bad these guys have been, Brown may not crack 30 points, Williams may not crack 40 and Richards may not get double digit goals while being the worst def forward on the team yet again.

I'm nodding and I'm nodding and I'm agreeing and I'm agreeing and then hrrrnnnnfffff.

By no means has he been good, but the hyperbole.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I don't think anyone ever thought of Richards as the worst defensive forward on the team until his struggles started in late December. He's been slow to react and that's making him look like he's struggling. There's also this guy named Dustin Brown who is pretty clueless when he's back checking.

 

[Herby]

I'm nodding and I'm nodding and I'm agreeing and I'm agreeing and then hrrrnnnnfffff.

By no means has he been good, but the hyperbole.

Well according to the numbers he is, and really it's not close.

On the ice for 3 goals every 60 minutes, Carter is at 2.5, not another forward above 2. And that is despite starting in the offensive zone more than any other forward on the Kings this season. Also lead the Kings in goals against per 60 last season.

On the ice for the most goals-against of any Kings player, one of only 6 forwards in the entire league that has been on the ice for the most goals against for their team.

-13 over the past two seasons is the worst on the team. The next worst is Nolan at -10 and Fraser at -8. Richards is the only player who has played regularly on the Kings top 9 who is a minus over the past two seasons.

 

[Ollie Weeks]

Well according to the numbers he is, and really it's not close.

On the ice for 3 goals every 60 minutes, Carter is at 2.5, not another forward above 2. And that is despite starting in the offensive zone more than any other forward on the Kings this season. Also lead the Kings in goals against per 60 last season.

On the ice for the most goals-against of any Kings player, one of only 6 forwards in the entire league that has been on the ice for the most goals against for their team.

-13 over the past two seasons is the worst on the team. The next worst is Nolan at -10 and Fraser at -8. Richards is the only player who has played regularly on the Kings top 9 who is a minus over the past two seasons.

I'd be interested in seeing those numbers, because I like numbers too. I give Richards more slack than most because he's often given tough assignments with inferior linemates and receives more ice time than the lesser players on the team (more chances to be scored upon). Plus minus isn't my favourite thing either, way too many variables to be sure about things. I mean Toffoli is a plus 15. And almost all of that he earned back when the team was flying, next to Richards.

Richards' defense for us has largely centered on neutral zone trickery to break up opposition possession (much like Carter), as well as the "best defense is a good offense" school of thought. The scoring funk and our herky jerky loss of chemistry since December have kind of nullified his strengths, and of late he's been running around the defensive zone with Brown and Williams, neither of which right now could find their ass with a map. To be fair, those 3 looked to be improving together, generating tons of chances, but they're still costing us from time to time.

I don't think he's as bad as the numbers say, primarily because nearly everyone else gets to play with Kopitar, and he's just that good. And anyways, if Brown and Williams were putting up even slightly more points right now, this isn't really a conversation.

 

[KingKopitar11*]

I still think trading Richards + for a young second line center would be a good move. He's not as any younger and it's showing.

 

[KingsFan7824]

I still think trading Richards + for a young second line center would be a good move. He's not as any younger and it's showing.

If you're a GM, which young 2nd line center would you trade for an aging Richards, and how much + would have to be added to make you do the deal?

 

[Telos]

It's misleading to suggest that Richards' age is showing. Every time he slumps in the future it will be declared to be the signs of him becoming Scott Gomez. If such a standard were held toward anyone else on the team, half the team would have been traded a long while ago.

 

[Ollie Weeks]

It's misleading to suggest that Richards' age is showing. Every time he slumps in the future it will be declared to be the signs of him becoming Scott Gomez. If such a standard were held toward anyone else on the team, half the team would have been traded a long while ago.

Right?

And with a guy known to play through injuries, his play is gonna suffer from time to time. I think this time off will help to either to reset or recover for the rest of the year.

 

[Herby]

It's misleading to suggest that Richards' age is showing. Every time he slumps in the future it will be declared to be the signs of him becoming Scott Gomez. If such a standard were held toward anyone else on the team, half the team would have been traded a long while ago.

It's not misleading to suggest his age is showing, what else are you supposed to say when a guy seems to get worse and worse every season, it happens to every athlete, most in their 30's, but plenty in their late 20's.

With me, it's not only the offense, if you want to call this season an offensive slump go ahead, but the collapse of the rest of his game is not a slump. His overall game is nowhere close to where it was in his prime years, you can't argue when he is dead last in ALL the advanced defensive stats on the team, and for a second straight season , to me that shows more than a "slump"

 

[Telos]

The man was earning songs and praises for his play just a few months ago when he was edging Kopitar on our team for leading scorer. The main boards was gushing over him, the Flyers fans were arguing about the trade every day, and we were signing him praises. Then the whole team goes in the offensive toilet for a month and Richards is the next Scott Gomez. I'd give it some time.

It's not misleading to suggest his age is showing, what else are you supposed to say when a guy seems to get worse and worse every season, it happens to every athlete, most in their 30's, but plenty in their late 20's.

With me, it's not only the offense, if you want to call this season an offensive slump go ahead, but the collapse of the rest of his game is not a slump. His overall game is nowhere close to where it was in his prime years, you can't argue when he is dead last in ALL the advanced defensive stats on the team, and for a second straight season , to me that shows more than a "slump"

An an injury then. Something other than jumping to the conclusion that his career is over after a month of unproductive play. Brown would have been sent to the Goulag by now if that were an actual standard upheld by senseless GM's, but he is off likely winning a medal in the Olympics.

 

[KingKopitar11*]

If you're a GM, which young 2nd line center would you trade for an aging Richards, and how much + would have to be added to make you do the deal?

I'm sure there are teams that are looking for contention with a young core that would sacrifice and young 2c for Richards and his experiences.

Luckily Richards has a nice resume that young teams would probably trade a young 2C for. I haven't looked exactly at rosters because I'm not by my laptop right now. But it's happened before.

 

[Herby]

An an injury then. Something other than jumping to the conclusion that his career is over after a month of unproductive play. Brown would have been sent to the Goulag by now if that were an actual standard upheld by senseless GM's, but he is off likely winning a medal in the Olympics.

It's not a month of unproductive play, unless you are strictly looking at assists in judging a player, that is the only stat that has fallen off the past month. He hasn't scored goals or been physical for much longer than a month and his defensive game has been crap for over 100 games over the past two seasons.

I'm talking about the overall game, not just offensive stats, and even when he was getting assists earlier in the year he was still a disaster defensively.

 

[Telos]

It's not a month of unproductive play, unless you are strictly looking at assists in judging a player, that is the only stat that has fallen off the past month. He hasn't scored goals or been physical for much longer than a month and his defensive game has been crap for over 100 games over the past two seasons.

I'm talking about the overall game, not just offensive stats, and even when he was getting assists earlier in the year he was still a disaster defensively.

A struggling Richards is still a 50 point player on the worst offensive, best defensive team in the league. He is also one of the only forwards to show up for us during the playoffs last year. He's there when it matters.

 

[KINGS17]

It's not misleading to suggest his age is showing, what else are you supposed to say when a guy seems to get worse and worse every season, it happens to every athlete, most in their 30's, but plenty in their late 20's.

With me, it's not only the offense, if you want to call this season an offensive slump go ahead, but the collapse of the rest of his game is not a slump. His overall game is nowhere close to where it was in his prime years, you can't argue when he is dead last in ALL the advanced defensive stats on the team, and for a second straight season , to me that shows more than a "slump"

From what I understand Richards is not known for being a workout warrior. I think a lot of what he has accomplished to date has been done on guts and guile. He may have to put in more work in the off season if he wants to maintain the level of play we are used to seeing from him for the rest of his career.

 

[YP44]

A struggling Richards is still a 50 point player on the worst offensive, best defensive team in the league. He is also one of the only forwards to show up for us during the playoffs last year. He's there when it matters.

Yup, I think he will re-motivated after the break too