OT: All-Purpose Expos Return Speculation Topic -- Part Deux

[salbutera]

You're wrong on both counts! Emphasis isn't solely on ticket sales. National tv money is huge. Not to mention big local and Canada wide tv money.

Plus, Expos did have a die hard fan base. If you put decent place to play and decent product on field they will support the team. To prove it the Expos averaged 2.3 million fans a year for 5 straight years. From 1979-1983. One of best draws in baseball.

Put a shitty team on field in run down stadium with owner like Loria or Brochu then no.

most of that attendance base left w the political exodus, and became Blow Jays support base.

Expos despite being “Nos Amours”, never were able to penetrate the francophone psyche, add to it the demographic of Mtl completely got overhauled starting mid-80s w immigration primarily from regions of la francophonie (north Africa, Lebanon / Middle East etc.) that had no connection to a game like baseball.

Final nail in the coffin was the exclusivity agreement signed in 1976 w Blow Jays having exclusive broadcast rights from Brampton —> west, with Expos retaining Quebec & Maritimes.

Inability to penetrate the lucrative Southern Ontario horseshoe removed all hope of bringing in revenue

As for “local investors”, keep in mind back in 67 had Bronfman not stepped in at the last minute to buy the team, there would never have been a Mtl Expos. Quebec investment community has always been all talk & no balls to back it up with concrete action

 

[BargainBinSpecial]

You're wrong on both counts! Emphasis isn't solely on ticket sales. National tv money is huge. Not to mention big local and Canada wide tv money.

Plus, Expos did have a die hard fan base. If you put decent place to play and decent product on field they will support the team. To prove it the Expos averaged 2.3 million fans a year for 5 straight years. From 1979-1983. One of best draws in baseball.

Put a shitty team on field in run down stadium with owner like Loria or Brochu then no.

You keep blaming the owners, but again fail to acknowledge the real issues of the Expos demise.

Nobody cared to keep the Expos, no political commitment whatsoever, and definately no solid fanbase.

Again, your argument is flawed. The Habs depleted their team in the 90s, but they never lost their local fanbase. The Expos had a bunch of bandwagon fans instead, and your argument proves me right.

You cannot blame the owners for not been able to secure a good deal for TV revenue. It takes two parties to tangle. The Expos couldn't request a hefty fee for broadcasting rights because they never had a strong following and nobody would pay that, unlike other MLB franchises.

Bronfman pulled out, because he had a sinking ship in front of him. With skyrocketing player salaries, no political commitment to keep the team, no solid following which meant a bad TV revenue deal, no local owners willing to invest, and off course the exodus of english speakers because of the political instability are amongst the real reasons the team never really took off.

Baseball appealed more to the anglophone community than the french one. In fact, one thing I do blame the Expos for is not developping an elite local market for emerging french players. They never really drafted any french players and most of their day to day business and marketing campaigns were done mostly in english. Due to the political instability, they were shunned by many french Quebecers and politicians. My comments and opinions may be controversial, but that's the sad reality.

Nothing else survives in this town, other than the Habs.

 

[BLONG7]

You keep blaming the owners, but again fail to acknowledge the real issues of the Expos demise.

Nobody cared to keep the Expos, no political commitment whatsoever, and definately no solid fanbase.

Again, your argument is flawed. The Habs depleted their team in the 90s, but they never lost their local fanbase. The Expos had a bunch of bandwagon fans instead, and your argument proves me right.

You cannot blame the owners for not been able to secure a good deal for TV revenue. It takes two parties to tangle. The Expos couldn't request a hefty fee for broadcasting rights because they never had a strong following and nobody would pay that, unlike other MLB franchises.

Bronfman pulled out, because he had a sinking ship in front of him. With skyrocketing player salaries, no political commitment to keep the team, no solid following which meant a bad TV revenue deal, no local owners willing to invest, and off course the exodus of english speakers because of the political instability are amongst the real reasons the team never really took off.

Baseball appealed more to the anglophone community than the french one. In fact, one thing I do blame the Expos for is not developping an elite local market for emerging french players. They never really drafted any french players and most of their day to day business and marketing campaigns were done mostly in english. Due to the political instability, they were shunned by many french Quebecers and politicians. My commenpts and opinions may be controversial, but that's the sad reality.

Nothing else survives in this town, other than the Habs.

The sad reality.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

As they say: people deserve the government they have.

Not really. Representative democracy is a sham. You vote for one representative. There's no blame on voters when media and money interests push for their own.

The way you say this is as if we had a full blown open direct democracy. Then we would be to blame, but it's not the case.

The blame should always be on the sociopathic bent for power, money and dominance that mostly always stiffles true human progress. Representatives who would present true solutions would get shoved aside by money and media. That's why politicians are mostly all the same, presenting small changes that are inside the socio-economic paradigm, never changing the foundations, which limit human potential and helps secure existing wealth and power.

Money rules. Your vote doesn't.

 

[ChesterNimitz]

You keep blaming the owners, but again fail to acknowledge the real issues of the Expos demise.

Nobody cared to keep the Expos, no political commitment whatsoever, and definately no solid fanbase.

Again, your argument is flawed. The Habs depleted their team in the 90s, but they never lost their local fanbase. The Expos had a bunch of bandwagon fans instead, and your argument proves me right.

You cannot blame the owners for not been able to secure a good deal for TV revenue. It takes two parties to tangle. The Expos couldn't request a hefty fee for broadcasting rights because they never had a strong following and nobody would pay that, unlike other MLB franchises.

Bronfman pulled out, because he had a sinking ship in front of him. With skyrocketing player salaries, no political commitment to keep the team, no solid following which meant a bad TV revenue deal, no local owners willing to invest, and off course the exodus of english speakers because of the political instability are amongst the real reasons the team never really took off.

Baseball appealed more to the anglophone community than the french one. In fact, one thing I do blame the Expos for is not developping an elite local market for emerging french players. They never really drafted any french players and most of their day to day business and marketing campaigns were done mostly in english. Due to the political instability, they were shunned by many french Quebecers and politicians. My comments and opinions may be controversial, but that's the sad reality.

Nothing else survives in this town, other than the Habs.

The factors you ably describe that led to the demise of the Expos also apply to many more businesses than just Montreal’s MLB franchise who fled the city and province ‘due to the political instability.’ As one writer once wryly noted: ‘the most nervous thing in the world is a million dollars.”

 

[dinodebino]

Expos moved away because the interest wasn’t there. Politics had nothing to do with it. The fan base was tiny, the market was and is STILL driven by one pro sports franchise only. What CfMtl fans are lamenting about (media coverage) was the daily routine for the small hard core Expos fanbase. Media AND public interest is all about the Habs. The rest is tier-2 level.

Blame the owners or the politicians all you want, but fan interest wasn’t there.

Habs got 65M per season US(!!!) for their local broadcasts on TV. Expos, at the time, HAD TO PAY!!! Think about that for a second.

 

[LeHab]

Unfortunately, due to the political instability and uncertain future of the province at the time, no local investor was willing to shove money into them.

Had the provincial government given a loan to Brochu, the team may have been saved. There was really no fanbase and any smart person would have stayed away, you would be selling at a loss. It would also be extremely difficult to sustain current player salaries without a solid fanbase. Loria managed to cunn MLB unfortunately and purchase the Marlins instead. He managed to acquire 93% ownership overnight, because the other stakeholders didn't care and just handed him their shares for free.

Expos survivor hinged on a new ballpark downtown. with many games played during weekdays, hard to get people especially business type to attend games when access is not convenient. Baseball stadiums are depreciating assets since there is little else other than baseball that can be hosted there. Hence why no private entity wanted to fork the money for one. Unlike an arena for hockey which can host events year long.

These days at least ballparks can be bundled with larger RE to sink most of cost and not look like govt is subsidizing too much. This is what Bronfman wanted this time around. Rays and A's are playing similar strategies to build new venues.

 

[LeHab]

I’m no longer following baseball day-to-day but this story about the son of ex-Expo Fernando Fatis, makes me happy I don’t: Fernando Tatis Jr. offers ridiculous lie as sad excuse for being a PED cheat

Fatis Jr. is both a cheat and a liar and the idiot Pads committed $341 Million to this poor excuse of a human being. He thinks he’s smarter than everyone however he was cunning enough to fool the Pads, I’ll give him that.

Yeah so much baseball talent so little brain. This PED story is only one in a string of poor decisions:

The Padres announced Tuesday that star shortstop Fernando Tatis Jr. suffered a fractured wrist during the offseason and could miss up to three months to recover.

General manager A.J. Preller revealed the news during a press conference but did not confirm how the injury occurred. However, he did allude to the reported motorcycle accident that the 23-year-old Tatis was involved in the Dominican Republic in December.

According to Kevin Acee of The San Diego Union-Tribune, Tatis suffered “minor scrapes” in the accident. However, when speaking to the media Tuesday, the Padres shortstop seemingly admitted that he was in a number of minor accidents during the offseason.

Fernando Tatis Jr. addresses motorcycle accidents during offseason - Sports Illustrated

The star shortstop responded “which one?” when asked to clarify the date of his reported crash.

www.si.com

Hopefully this extra time off will make him mature a little more.

 

[BargainBinSpecial]

Expos survivor hinged on a new ballpark downtown. with many games played during weekdays, hard to get people especially business type to attend games when access is not convenient. Baseball stadiums are depreciating assets since there is little else other than baseball that can be hosted there. Hence why no private entity wanted to fork the money for one. Unlike an arena for hockey which can host events year long.

These days at least ballparks can be bundled with larger RE to sink most of cost and not look like govt is subsidizing too much. This is what Bronfman wanted this time around. Rays and A's are playing similar strategies to build new venues.

Unfortunately, the Impact's days seem numbered also. The stadium is located next to the Big O and commuters find it hard to get there. Not much other to do in that stadium then play soccer games.

If there is one sport, other than hockey, that this town can really support is soccer. The diverse african, latin and european cultures can fuel this passion and the potential is there to build something great. The team is having difficulty attracting crowds and is thinking outside the box to find solutions, including changing its logo and name. If there is one thing, we can do to save them is to go watch the games. The product might not be great on the field, but let's all support this franchise.

 

[LaP]

Expos moved away because the interest wasn’t there. Politics had nothing to do with it. The fan base was tiny, the market was and is STILL driven by one pro sports franchise only. What CfMtl fans are lamenting about (media coverage) was the daily routine for the small hard core Expos fanbase. Media AND public interest is all about the Habs. The rest is tier-2 level.

Blame the owners or the politicians all you want, but fan interest wasn’t there.

Habs got 65M per season US(!!!) for their local broadcasts on TV. Expos, at the time, HAD TO PAY!!! Think about that for a second.

I partially disagree with that. It's in part true but the Olympic Stadium was a big reason for the low interest. It was an awful stadium. Very cold and uninviting imo. The team had to be really really good to justify locking yourself in that stadium in July. And considering the price we paid for it it should not have been.

It should have been a great stadium. My dad was working in the construction field at that time and told me stories about concrete truck going in to dump concrete and were still full of concrete when going out. Government slept on the job when the stadium was built they overpaid for what it ended up to be. For the price we paid it should have been a much better stadium. My dad had lot of stories about clear as day corruptions.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

How would they even fill a baseball stadium in Montreal when tickets are like 50 bucks a pop + these days in the MLB, in this economy!?!?!??!?!

 

[BargainBinSpecial]

I partially disagree with that. It's in part true but the Olympic Stadium was a big reason for the low interest. It was an awful stadium. Very cold and uninviting imo. The team had to be really really good to justify locking yourself in that stadium in July. And considering the price we paid for it it should not have been.

It should have been a great stadium. My dad was working in the construction field at that time and told me stories about concrete truck going in to dump concrete and were still full of concrete when going out. Government slept on the job when the stadium was built they overpaid for what it ended up to be. For the price we paid it should have been a much better stadium. My dad had lot of stories about clear as day corruptions.

Unfortunately, estimation and execution are too different animals. Projects of this size tend to go overbudget and everyone tries to cut corners to make it. Original specifications and drawings are altered and presented to the client for acceptance. Often times, the client will bend and approve alternatives of inferior quality to avoid unnecessary court dealings.

 

[BLONG7]

It would seem fair to say, that Montreal is just not a pro sports town, just a habs town. Nothing ever gets the support from the city.
Expecting 20-25k to go to a MLB game in Montreal is probably a pipe dream.

 

[peate]

Get a farm team. Much easier to manage, more accessible and it's still good baseball. Royals were very popular in the 50's 60's with stars like Tommy Lasorda and Jackie Robinson.

 

[JianYang]

I partially disagree with that. It's in part true but the Olympic Stadium was a big reason for the low interest. It was an awful stadium. Very cold and uninviting imo. The team had to be really really good to justify locking yourself in that stadium in July. And considering the price we paid for it it should not have been.

It should have been a great stadium. My dad was working in the construction field at that time and told me stories about concrete truck going in to dump concrete and were still full of concrete when going out. Government slept on the job when the stadium was built they overpaid for what it ended up to be. For the price we paid it should have been a much better stadium. My dad had lot of stories about clear as day corruptions.

Even if that stadium was executed efficiently, I still wonder if the roof would have worked.

The concept of that original roof seemed highly ambitious, and didn't seem very practical. Were there people making noise back in the 70s that this roof would never work as intended?

To this day, I don't think there is a stadium out there that was built in such a way (tower, cables, roof, stadium), and it seems there is good reason for it.

 

[Le Tricolore]

Get a farm team. Much easier to manage, more accessible and it's still good baseball. Royals were very popular in the 50's 60's with stars like Tommy Lasorda and Jackie Robinson.

A minor league team might be decent baseball, but most people in the city wouldn't care about it. I'm a big baseball fan, actually watching a game now, but I couldn't care less about a minor league team. I'm sure I am not alone.

 

[JianYang]

Get a farm team. Much easier to manage, more accessible and it's still good baseball. Royals were very popular in the 50's 60's with stars like Tommy Lasorda and Jackie Robinson.

Even the farm team presence in Canada has dwindled.

There is only one Canadian farm team left, and that is in Vancouver.... And it's only single A (formerly a AAA franchise)

Triple A would probably still require a new stadium as well.

The main selling point in Vancouver isn't really the game or team. It's the atmosphere, and experience.... A cozy outdoor stadium from the 50s that almost takes you back in time.

Thats the way to do it especially when you don't have the highest level of baseball.

 

[peate]

I think it would work with the right planning. Fans could see good ball and not have to spend a fortune. Imagine having the Red Sox farm team, or the Yankees.

 

[LaP]

Even if that stadium was executed efficiently, I still wonder if the roof would have worked.

The concept of that original roof seemed highly ambitious, and didn't seem very practical. Were there people making noise back in the 70s that this roof would never work as intended?

To this day, I don't think there is a stadium out there that was built in such a way (tower, cables, roof, stadium), and it seems there is good reason for it.

oh i agree it was a bad idea from the start. A bad idea badly executed. But it being a bad idea still falls on the politician shoulders who gave the green light to that. The roger center has a functioning roof and i think it cost less to build that the OS and was made like couple of years later. I might be wrong on that have no checked.

From what i can remember the OS cost something like between 600 to 700 millions to build. And you have to add to that the cost of two roofs added later on for a total of around 800 millions. That's around 2 billions in today's money. You can have a functioning roof for that cost easily.

Now maybe the Expos can't survive in a better stadium anyway. But i think it's a bold claim. There was people going to watch the team when it was good (before the fire sale afer the lockout). But man going to the OS in a sunny summer day or hot summer night when the team was bad was like going to prison. It is my very humble opinion that it is a terrible and uninviting stadium and the only reason to go there is to watch a very good team.

 

[JianYang]

I think it would work with the right planning. Fans could see good ball and not have to spend a fortune. Imagine having the Red Sox farm team, or the Yankees.

Another factor to consider is the season length. I don't know which aaa league montreal would fall into, but one of the problems that AAA Vancouver had was that the season started earlier in the spring, and rainouts were too common.

So the season alignment with the weather is a big deal IMO, because it absolutely has to be a fully outdoor stadium.

 

[JianYang]

oh i agree it was a bad idea from the start. A bad idea badly executed. But it being a bad idea still falls on the politician shoulders who gave the green light to that. The roger center has a functioning roof and i think it cost less to build that the OS and was made like couple of years later. I might be wrong on that have no checked.

From what i can remember the OS cost something like between 600 to 700 millions to build. And you have to add to that the cost of two roofs added later on for a total of around 800 millions. That's around 2 billions in today's money. You can have a functioning roof for that cost easily.

Now maybe the Expos can't survive in a better stadium anyway. But i think it's a bold claim. There was people going to watch the team when it was good (before the fire sale afer the lockout). But man going to the OS in a sunny summer day or hot summer night when the team was bad was like going to prison. It is my very humble opinion that it is a terrible and uninviting stadium and the only reason to go there is to watch a very good team.

You're right, the Big O roof was installed in 1987.... Over a decade after the Olympics lmao

Skydome was built in 89

I wonder if there was any chance for Montreal to pivot on the roof project at some point, and go for a different design..... Or was the structure in place already too inflexible to change the roof mechanics.

I'm guessing the latter but I'm the furthest thing from an engineer or architect.

 

[salbutera]

Keep in mind the “great” Mtl Canadiens were for sale for close to 18-months and not one single local businessman stepped up to make an offer to buy the team back in 2000, until an American businessman thought there was an opportunity to leverage brand, and took the brilliant provincial politicians to the cleaners by forcing them to hand him a lucrative loan to buy the team at bargain basement price including arena.

Basic facts are local Quebec businessman simply can’t compete w their American counterparts - no vision & no balls to swim with the sharks.

“né pour un petit pain”….

 

[JianYang]

Keep in mind the Mtl Canadiens were for sale for close to 18-months and not one single local businessman stepped up to make an offer to buy the team back in 2000, until an American businessman thought there was an opportunity and took the brilliant provincial politicians to the cleaners by forcing them to hand him a lucrative loan to buy the team.

Basic facts are local Quebec businessman simply can’t compete w their American counterparts - no vision & no balls to swim with the sharks

Gillette also got the city to reduce its municipal taxes levied towards the team.

I remember at one point, the Habs were paying over 11 million a year in city taxes while another market like Detroit was paying 75k.

Uncle George was actually a good owner on and off the ice.

 

[LeHab]

Unfortunately, the Impact's days seem numbered also. The stadium is located next to the Big O and commuters find it hard to get there. Not much other to do in that stadium then play soccer games.

If there is one sport, other than hockey, that this town can really support is soccer. The diverse african, latin and european cultures can fuel this passion and the potential is there to build something great. The team is having difficulty attracting crowds and is thinking outside the box to find solutions, including changing its logo and name. If there is one thing, we can do to save them is to go watch the games. The product might not be great on the field, but let's all support this franchise.

Other than Habs Montreal is an Event city. Grand Prix, Tennis, UFC/Boxing can all attract good crowds.

The whole rebranding of Impact might have been a good idea had fans been consulted. Like you I still call them Impact.

 

[salbutera]

Unfortunately, the Impact's days seem numbered also. The stadium is located next to the Big O and commuters find it hard to get there. Not much other to do in that stadium then play soccer games.

If there is one sport, other than hockey, that this town can really support is soccer. The diverse african, latin and european cultures can fuel this passion and the potential is there to build something great. The team is having difficulty attracting crowds and is thinking outside the box to find solutions, including changing its logo and name. If there is one thing, we can do to save them is to go watch the games. The product might not be great on the field, but let's all support this franchise.

Mtl also has one of the lowest median disposable incomes of any major city in North America