All Encompassing Tortorella..ella..ella..eh..eh...and Glen Cigar Thread Part III

[Tawnos]

There was no reason at the time to think Dubinsky wouldn't keep up being a good 2nd liner.

And that doesn't detract from the argument that Drury was a 3rd liner in Buffalo. Two very different scenarios. There wasnt a Briere or Roy ahead of Dubi on the depth chart.

 

[Tawnos]

Yea, I always wondered what the deal was with that.

Judging by those teams, it might've had something with Savard wanting to play hard.

"Dude, you're trying too hard. Cut it out. You're embarrassing us". Lol

 

[Trxjw]

All the moves you listed above are about are merely good moves in the absence of inheriting Superstar talent signed at entry level prices. Just because you get a lump in your throat and your eyes glisten when you think about them doesn't mean i have to.

Yes, the fact that he has built a fantastic supporting cast around his superstars is "merely good". But please, continue to make yourself look foolish by trying to take digs at me.

If you want to draw comparisons to a well built/developed team, then point to Boston. It takes zero effort to align your position with the darlings of the NHL draft and the poster boy of the NHL.

Sorry, just because you get your skivvies in a twist when it comes to the Pens it doesn't mean they haven't been a more successful, better managed franchise over the last 10 years than we have. If you want to hang your hat on 4 playoff series wins in the last 13 years and say we're somehow superior, then be my guest. Some of us want to, you know, win that big silver thing.

 

[OverTheCap]

I think even arrogant Sather himself would admit that the Drury signing was a mistake. I can't believe years later that there is even a debate about this.

 

[Ryan McDonut]

Lets say the Pens do almost everything right and are the shining example of how to do things and Slats is awful and does almost everything wrong. How come the Pens have only won 1 cup more than we have in the last 10 years or so since they drafted Malkin, Crosby, Staal and Fleury with two number one overall picks and two #2 overall draft picks? In those 10 years Pitt probably has a better record but not a dramatically better record. If Pitt is near perfect and Slats is horrible why do the records not reflect that despite Pitt having four top 1-2 picks that Slats has not had?

because one of letang, staal, malkin and crosby have been injured the last few years. last year letang missed 30 games, staal missed 20, crosby missed 60. the year before that crosby and malkin missed the second half of the season and didnt play in the playoffs while jordan missed 40 games. they've been pretty unlucky with injuries to their 4 best players the last few years and still remain competitive. if those 4 were completely healthy the last couple of years (with how dominant crosby was playing when he first got his concussion, 66 pts in 40 games) they would be making deep runs.

look at this year, crosby, neal and malkin have all missed time. their lack of playoff dominance is due to injuries, not their gm.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

I think even arrogant Sather himself would admit that the Drury signing was a mistake. I can't believe years later that there is even a debate about this.

The debate is more so about it being an obvious mistake at the time...

A little bit of research could tell you that it was.

 

[nyranger61494]

As I recall, it was both. Size issues and he rubbed some vets the wrong way.



Once they had him all but dealt in the Palffy trade, they felt they had to move him. I always thought he would be a great piece on a good team and mediocre part of a bad team.

Interesting. Thanks for the nuggets, SBOB. Love these kinds of conversations delving into the what if's and the past, even if they are a little bit depressing haha. Do you recall the parameters for that Palffy deal?

Hopefully, this year's team plays on for a few more weeks and we can hold off on all of these conversations that I look forward to during the summer months but the 99 draft day deals kind of piqued my interest in the subject.

 

[Thirty One]

I think even arrogant Sather himself would admit that the Drury signing was a mistake. I can't believe years later that there is even a debate about this.

I don't believe there is.

 

[OverTheCap]

The debate is more so about it being an obvious mistake at the time...

A little bit of research could tell you that it was.

It was an obvious overpayment at the time. I think many Rangers fans were willing to brush it under the rug when it happened because they were so excited to get two of the three big names in free agency. For Drury's salary to be justified, he would probably have to go above and beyond his career highs - it just wasn't feasible that he was going to come close to living up to that contract.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Do you recall the parameters for that Palffy deal?

It was going to be Palffy and Pilon for Sundstrom, Todd Harvey, a 1st, a prospect and $2.5M. That was the hockey part of the trade.

The other part was financial issues surrounding broadcasting Islander games on Cablevision systems.

Here's a good article:

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/06/15/s...stall-the-palffy-trade.html?ref=zigmundpalffy

 

[McRanger]

It was going to be Palffy and Pilon for Sundstrom, Todd Harvey, a 1st, a prospect and $2.5M. That was the hockey part of the trade.

The other part was financial issues surrounding broadcasting Islander games on Cablevision systems.

Here's a good article:

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/06/15/s...stall-the-palffy-trade.html?ref=zigmundpalffy

Would you do that deal considering what we ended up getting? 1st was Lundmark, Harvey brought Dvorak and Sundstrom (along with Cloutier and a 1st) got us Brendl.

I thought that deal was a disaster in the making. Who would have thought a bigger disaster was on the horizon?

 

[nyranger61494]

It was going to be Palffy and Pilon for Sundstrom, Todd Harvey, a 1st, a prospect and $2.5M. That was the hockey part of the trade.

The other part was financial issues surrounding broadcasting Islander games on Cablevision systems.

Here's a good article:

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/06/15/s...stall-the-palffy-trade.html?ref=zigmundpalffy

Thanks a lot!

Very interesting read. Of course, Pilon went on to be a Ranger anyway. Palffy had some tremendous years in LA. It's unbelievable to think that in 1999, a team in the NHL wasn't having all of its games televised (Chicago in same boat I'm assuming).

The LA trade ended up being Palffy, Brian Smolinski, Marcel Cousineau and New Jersey's 4th round choice (previously acquired, Los Angeles selected Daniel Johansson) in 1999 Entry Draft for Olli Jokinen, Josh Green, Mathieu Biron and Los Angeles' 1st round choice (Taylor Pyatt) in 1999 Entry Draft.

 

[nyranger61494]

Would you do that deal considering what we ended up getting? 1st was Lundmark, Harvey brought Dvorak and Sundstrom (along with Cloutier and a 1st) got us Brendl.

I thought that deal was a disaster in the making. Who would have thought a bigger disaster was on the horizon?

Haha. Excellent point and question. I think it was well intentioned at the time. Palffy was in his prime though, 27 years old. I liked Dvorak. Maybe Savard sticks although based on what others have said here, he was bound to get dealt eventually. Based on how poorly the draft day deals worked, I would do it just to see the alternative.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Would you do that deal considering what we ended up getting? 1st was Lundmark, Harvey brought Dvorak and Sundstrom (along with Cloutier and a 1st) got us Brendl.

I thought that deal was a disaster in the making. Who would have thought a bigger disaster was on the horizon?

There was more to it. The Rangers traded Marc Savard and the #11 pick to Calgary for the #9 pick and Jan Hlavac.

But in hindsight, yeah. Palffy was the best player in the deal and had a 66 point season and two 80+ point seasons in LA.

I guess the biggest reason why I would do it — if they don't draft Brendl, they can't trade for Lindros!

 

[NikC]

Yes, the fact that he has built a fantastic supporting cast around his superstars is "merely good". But please, continue to make yourself look foolish by trying to take digs at me.



Sorry, just because you get your skivvies in a twist when it comes to the Pens it doesn't mean they haven't been a more successful, better managed franchise over the last 10 years than we have. If you want to hang your hat on 4 playoff series wins in the last 13 years and say we're somehow superior, then be my guest. Some of us want to, you know, win that big silver thing.

what I wrote was:

merely good in the absence of inheriting Superstar talent signed at entry level prices.

those moves without a Crosby, Malkin, Fluery, or Staal to trade amount to Jack ****!

 

[nyranger61494]

There was more to it. The Rangers traded Marc Savard and the #11 pick to Calgary for the #9 pick and Jan Hlavac.

But in hindsight, yeah. Palffy was the best player in the deal and had a 66 point season and two 80+ point seasons in LA.

I guess the biggest reason why I would do it — if they don't draft Brendl, they can't trade for Lindros!

Haha. Why they relented on Brendl for Lindros and not Jagr...

 

[Bluenote13]

Is that what the motivation was on Savard? I thought there were rumblings about personality issues turning off veterans, too? He had pretty respectable numbers in his limited NHL experience.

Yea, I always wondered what the deal was with that.

Judging by those teams, it might've had something with Savard wanting to play hard.

Savard was a young kid who thought he was hot ****. I rarely talk out of school about someone I met in hockey but he might have been the cockiest. He was hanging out with Wade Belak at the time and treated people below him, not worth his time. Call it youth, or bad timing, that was my experience with him after hearing negative things before and since that encounter.

Always liked him as a player, natural scorer, great instincts.

 

[OverTheCap]

Islanders fans must have been sick to their stomachs when they heard that their most hated rival were in serious discussions to acquire their franchise player. I can't even fathom the thought of Lundqvist being traded to the Isles.

Also, it's rather depressing that the Rangers' philosophy hasn't changed much in 15 years. Acquiring franchise players and talent from outside the organization still seems to be the modus operandi.

 

[nyranger61494]

Savard was a young kid who thought he was hot ****. I rarely talk out of school about someone I met in hockey but he might have been the cockiest. He was hanging out with Wade Belak at the time and treated people below him, not worth his time. Call it youth, or bad timing, that was my experience with him after hearing negative things before and since that encounter.

Always liked him as a player, natural scorer, great instincts.

Thanks for the insight!

I remember HNIC did an Inside Hockey piece on him a couple of seasons ago that his divorce had changed him but maybe/maybe not. Bad guy or not, certainly a shame how his career (seemingly) ended.

 

[Trxjw]

what I wrote was:

merely good in the absence of inheriting Superstar talent signed at entry level prices.

those moves without a Crosby, Malkin, Fluery, or Staal to trade amount to Jack ****!

Which is entirely irrelevant because he had those players already. I say he built a great team around his elite core, and you come back with "But if he didn't have those players it wouldn't matter!" Makes total sense.

 

[Richter Scale]

I do remember there being a big buzz around Lundmark and Brendl and that Rangers had hit homerun. It certainly seemed a little bit rushed but if these guys are Perry/Getzlaf or Richards/Carter, it's viewed quite differently.

Man, what a throwback. Yup - I remember people saying this stuff about Brendl at the time that was equivalent to the **** being said about Crosby before he was drafted -- "He's the next 'the one'!" What a load of crap that turned out to be.

This was back in the days that I went to the Rangers training camps up in VT. Was excited to get a look at the guy and see what he could do -- and the most vivid recollection I have is watching the team do drills/suicides, and trying to pick out which skater was Brendl. After looking for a while, I couldn't find him and asked a buddy of mine I was there with if he could find him. It turned out that the guy was on all fours and just completely sucking wind, not even completing the drill. We had both glossed right over him because we just assumed that that couldn't be "the next Gretzky." Surely our first round pick didn't just show up to training camp that out of shape. Pretty much in that moment, I just knew in my gut that the guy wasn't going to make it in the NHL. And so it went... his reputation as being lazy was reinforced further, he failed to play the defensive side of the puck, clashed with the coaching staff, and was eventually shipped from team to team until he settled in the KHL.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Man, what a throwback. Yup - I remember people saying this stuff about Brendl at the time that was equivalent to the **** being said about Crosby before he was drafted -- "He's the next 'the one'!" What a load of crap that turned out to be.

This was back in the days that I went to the Rangers training camps up in VT. Was excited to get a look at the guy and see what he could do -- and the most vivid recollection I have is watching the team do drills/suicides, and trying to pick out which skater was Brendl. After looking for a while, I couldn't find him and asked a buddy of mine I was there with if he could find him. It turned out that the guy was on all fours and just completely sucking wind, not even completing the drill. We had both glossed right over him because we just assumed that that couldn't be "the next Gretzky." Surely our first round pick didn't just show up to training camp that out of shape. Pretty much in that moment, I just knew in my gut that the guy wasn't going to make it in the NHL. And so it went... his reputation as being lazy was reinforced further, he failed to play the defensive side of the puck, clashed with the coaching staff, and was eventually shipped from team to team until he settled in the KHL.

I don't think he ever was likened to Gretzky. But he was often compared to Mike Bossy, a goal scoring machine who was a subpar skater. I do remember that he supposedly showed up at to camp in terrible shape.

 

[Richter Scale]

I don't think he ever was likened to Gretzky. But he was often compared to Mike Bossy, a goal scoring machine who was a subpar skater.

I distinctly remember reading articles claiming he would be the next 'one.' They weren't really comparing him so much to Gretzky in terms of style/type of player - but in terms of the potential to be one of the greats of all time and at the very least a generational talent. It was all hype; and around when Gretzky was on the team - so it made for a good storyline.

The sad thing is, I'm convinced he could have made - at worst - a decent 2nd/3rd liner. How he started his professional career with the Rangers put him at a big disadvantage (rightfully so), and after that it just felt like teams didn't want to waste time on him so he never really was developed well or got a great shot at the big show. And then when his production/bottomline stats (skewed due to fairly low TOI) didn't meet the sky-high expectations, it became unacceptable to teams to even consider him as a potential future 2nd/3rd line tweener because he was supposed to be a scorer.

Now I realize that stats don't tell the whole story - and there were significant deficiencies to certain parts of his game (which he was working on). But if you look at his stats - even during his brief extended stints in the NHL - they weren't all that bad for a guy just starting in the NHL. The bottomline #s weren't that impressive - but he was also only playing about 8 - 10 min per night. Had he been given, for instance, the 17+ min average TOI that Cally was given in his first full season with the Rangers, based on Brendl's pt pace, he would have put up similar #s (slightly lower - he would have put up 38 pts to Cally's 40).

 

[Kel Varnsen]

He was a third line center when he had those "clutch performances". I just proved with statistics that Drury was a third line center the majority of his career. I did that in a short period of time with statistics that have been available for years...and you're telling me that supposed professionals couldn't figure that out? His stat-line was nice. Doesn't prove he's a viable first or even second line center. The ES TOI numbers, however, prove that Drury was playing on the third line with Buffalo. We all know Drury was behind Forsberg/Sakic in Colorado.

What was the alternative? Don't sign them. Look towards the future. Again...they gave a sheltered second line center first line center money, and they also gave first line center money to a third line center who specialized in scoring PP goals/PKing. They were stupid moves then, and they are viewed as stupid moves now. I don't care what a 30g player would garner in this market, and saying that completely ignores what I presented.

What a crock of ****. The guy was their best PK forward and one of their best PP forwards. The guy was logging over 18 minutes a game, how much time do you want him to average? That's the only reason his ES time wasn't as high, he was too valuable in special teams situations. The guy was a special teams beast. To say he was a third line center is a joke.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

What a crock of ****. The guy was their best PK forward and one of their best PP forwards. The guy was logging over 18 minutes a game, how much time do you want him to average? That's the only reason his ES time wasn't as high. The guy was a special teams beast. To say he was a third line center is a joke.

No, it's a fact.

Have fun believing that, though.