All Encompassing Tortorella..ella..ella..eh..eh...and Glen Cigar Thread Part III

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

But it does show considering they won a ******* Stanley Cup. They made it to the Finals in consecutive years. Losing to the Capitals in Game 6 last season forced a Game 7 which became the deepest run we had made in forever. That's awful.

Yea but we almost* won the cup last season


*team started sputtering in February; 10-10 postseason record.

 

[we want cup]

Beneath Lundqvist and a super human performance by Jagr, that 05-06 team was brutal. The slipper fell off that team about a month before the regular season ended.

Granted the team was pretty overrated, but the Olympics sure helped to yank that slipper off.

 

[Tawnos]

If they were considered to be legit cup contenders than Slats could not be doing a horrible job.

Depends on if your goal is to compete for the Cup or if it is to make the playoffs.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Depends on if your goal is to compete for the Cup or if it is to make the playoffs.

The majority of the league make the playoffs. Only one wins the Cup.

 

[Trxjw]

TRX, the '99 draft by ALL accounts, not just one or ten teams, but ALL the league thought that draft was going to be a once in decade type draft, the new millenium was upon us

The timing was right too. We had no one. Savard was still too small by the 1990's mentality, Richter was still 'ok' so Cloutier was expendable. The #1 the year after was read correctly, that was not a good draft, better to have two in '99 than one in 2000. That was the mindset back then. Neil Smith made alot of bad moves and post Cup the picks were so far from good, but I think he gets an unfair amount of abuse for trying to inject the system with more youth to go along with Manny taken a year earlier, and they were two guys that had been pretty fantastic skilled phenoms.

I know it was viewed as a good draft before it took place, but I still feel that it was more of a "save my ass" move by Smith as opposed to a well thought out strategy. It just baffles me how little luck we've had with drafts that were being used to "rebuild".. or whatever they were calling it.

 

[NYR Viper]

Depends on if your goal is to compete for the Cup or if it is to make the playoffs.

That's like saying your goal should not be first to make $100k and then to be a millionaire. Need one to happen before the other.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Depends on if your goal is to compete for the Cup or if it is to make the playoffs.

I think most fans goals are to do both but you cant criticize the architect of a team that you yourself just said were considered legit cup contenders. Hindsight is always 20-20 but for a team to be considered a legit cup contender then at that time they must have been impressed with the team that had been assembled.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

They overpaid for both Drury and Gomez who were already making $5m per year respectively. What was the alternative? Resign Nylander for $5m/5y which would mean giving the equivalent to Jagr? People rant and rave about the Drury/Gomez signings but offer no real alternative....

Drury

05-06 – led the team in goals, 2nd overall in pts @67
06-07 – 2nd in goals @ 37 3rd in pts @69

Drury was coming to NYR as a “clutch” performer having had huge playoff performances in both those years knocking us out
with 7.7s in game 5. Not too mention his history with the Avs, winning the SC. You know we weren’t getting an “elite 3rd line center”!

What would a player scoring 30g/65p+ be worth in today’s market? 5.5-6M$???

He was a third line center when he had those "clutch performances". I just proved with statistics that Drury was a third line center the majority of his career. I did that in a short period of time with statistics that have been available for years...and you're telling me that supposed professionals couldn't figure that out? His stat-line was nice. Doesn't prove he's a viable first or even second line center. The ES TOI numbers, however, prove that Drury was playing on the third line with Buffalo. We all know Drury was behind Forsberg/Sakic in Colorado.

What was the alternative? Don't sign them. Look towards the future. Again...they gave a sheltered second line center first line center money, and they also gave first line center money to a third line center who specialized in scoring PP goals/PKing. They were stupid moves then, and they are viewed as stupid moves now. I don't care what a 30g player would garner in this market, and saying that completely ignores what I presented.

 

[NickyFotiu]

He was a third line center when he had those "clutch performances". I just proved with statistics that Drury was a third line center the majority of his career. I did that in a short period of time with statistics that have been available for years...and you're telling me that supposed professionals couldn't figure that out? His stat-line was nice. Doesn't prove he's a viable first or even second line center. The ES TOI numbers, however, prove that Drury was playing on the third line with Buffalo. We all know Drury was behind Forsberg/Sakic in Colorado.

What was the alternative? Don't sign them. Look towards the future. Again...they gave a sheltered second line center first line center money, and they also gave first line center money to a third line center who specialized in scoring PP goals/PKing. They were stupid moves then, and they are viewed as stupid moves now. I don't care what a 30g player would garner in this market, and saying that completely ignores what I presented.

How many centers in the world would not play behind Forsberg and Sakic?

 

[Thirty One]

How many centers in the world would not play behind Forsberg and Sakic?

Drury also played on Forsberg's wing a lot.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

How many centers in the world would not play behind Forsberg and Sakic?

That's not my point.

 

[NickyFotiu]

That's not my point.

I did not want Drury signed. I thought we were paying too much and I was not a big fan of his game. With that said he did put up second line center numbers (he averaged close to 25 goals and 60 points in his 7 prior seasons) and had a reputation as a good defensive player and a clutch playoff performer.

 

[Tawnos]

The majority of the league make the playoffs. Only one wins the Cup.

This goes for a lot of the other responses to my statement as well.

I did not say "win". I said "compete for". Making the playoffs isn't the same thing as competing for the Cup. Others might disagree, but to me there is a clear distinction.

I actually had been pretty happy with Sather over the last few years. That ended last summer.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

This goes for a lot of the other responses to my statement as well.

I did not say "win". I said "compete for". Making the playoffs isn't the same thing as competing for the Cup. Others might disagree, but to me there is a clear distinction.

I completely agree.

 

[NikC]

He was a third line center when he had those "clutch performances". I just proved with statistics that Drury was a third line center the majority of his career. I did that in a short period of time with statistics that have been available for years...and you're telling me that supposed professionals couldn't figure that out? His stat-line was nice. Doesn't prove he's a viable first or even second line center. The ES TOI numbers, however, prove that Drury was playing on the third line with Buffalo. We all know Drury was behind Forsberg/Sakic in Colorado.

What was the alternative? Don't sign them. Look towards the future. Again...they gave a sheltered second line center first line center money, and they also gave first line center money to a third line center who specialized in scoring PP goals/PKing. They were stupid moves then, and they are viewed as stupid moves now. I don't care what a 30g player would garner in this market, and saying that completely ignores what I presented.

a third line center on THAT Sabres team means nothing. they were rolling 4 offensive lines at the time.
is Brad Richards a 3C because he's playing on our 3rd line? Look at his stats both regular/post season on the Sabres and keep telling yourself he was a third line player...

you don't care what a 30g 65p center would get in today's market because it makes what you've presented the steam pile of crap that it it...


good work with the revisionist history. you haven't changed much....

 

[haveandare]

Lets say the Pens do almost everything right and are the shining example of how to do things and Slats is awful and does almost everything wrong. How come the Pens have only won 1 cup more than we have in the last 10 years or so since they drafted Malkin, Crosby, Staal and Fleury with two number one overall picks and two #2 overall draft picks? In those 10 years Pitt probably has a better record but not a dramatically better record. If Pitt is near perfect and Slats is horrible why do the records not reflect that despite Pitt having four top 1-2 picks that Slats has not had?

Seriously. I agree with this. The Pens got handed 2 of the best players in the world, and they went to the cup and lost once and then went and won. Since then, they've been every bit as mediocre in the playoffs as anyone else. Lost in the conference semis, lost in conference quarters, lost in conference quarters. Yeah, a cup is a great achievement, and going to the dance and losing isn't anything to scoff at, but if that's the example of perfect team building, that's not dramatically different than other teams who make the playoffs consistently.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

a third line center on THAT Sabres team means nothing. they were rolling 4 offensive lines at the time.
is Brad Richards a 3C because he's playing on our 3rd line? Look at his stats both regular/post season on the Sabres and keep telling yourself he was a third line player...

you don't care what a 30g 65p center would get in today's market because it makes what you've presented the steam pile of crap that it it...


good work with the revisionist history. you haven't changed much....

"Steaming pile of crap"? You mean indisputable facts?

What a 30g/65p center gets in this market means nothing. Anyone could have told you that Drury wasn't worth the $7.5M, especially at a time when the salary cap was something like $15M lower than it is now. By the way, a center coming off of a 70+ point season in Richards got $6.6M per.

Not revisionist. At all. Drury was a 3rd line C on elite teams. When he was in Calgary/NY? Pretty much proves that if Drury is a team's top-6 center, that team is going nowhere.

 

[Ail]

This goes for a lot of the other responses to my statement as well.

I did not say "win". I said "compete for". Making the playoffs isn't the same thing as competing for the Cup. Others might disagree, but to me there is a clear distinction.

I actually had been pretty happy with Sather over the last few years. That ended last summer.

A lot of others would disagree. As far as they are concerned if you are in the playoffs you are competing for the Cup and that's naive thinking or over zealous hope that has little basis in reality. I understand people badly wanting to believe your team can go all the way as long as they are given the chance to, but they shouldn't be crucifying the rest of us for remaining skeptical.

 

[NikC]

"Steaming pile of crap"? You mean indisputable facts?

What a 30g/65p center gets in this market means nothing. Anyone could have told you that Drury wasn't worth the $7.5M, especially at a time when the salary cap was something like $15M lower than it is now. By the way, a center coming off of a 70+ point season in Richards got $6.6M per.

Not revisionist. At all. Drury was a 3rd line C on elite teams. When he was in Calgary/NY? Pretty much proves that if Drury is a team's top-6 center, that team is going nowhere.

Drury was being paid $5m by Buffalo, NY overpaid for him. no surprise here. Briere got $8M. The market hasn't changed that much for players with respective pts/goals. Your "facts" are skewed to fit your argument. Just because Buffalo used him on their third line, means he had the skillset of a third line player according to you?

BS. What 3rd line player puts up points the way he did in both the regular/post seasons? How many GWG did he have?

Weren't you making this same exact argument for Dubinsky being bonafide 2C @ 45-50pts a few years back?

 

[Trxjw]

Drury was being paid $5m by Buffalo, NY overpaid for him. no surprise here. Briere got $8M. The market hasn't changed that much for players with respective pts/goals. Your "facts" are skewed to fit your argument. Just because Buffalo used him on their third line, means he had the skillset of a third line player according to you?

BS. What 3rd line player puts up points the way he did in both the regular/post seasons? How many GWG did he have?

Weren't you making this same exact argument for Dubinsky being bonafide 2C @ 45-50pts a few years back?

$6.5M.. $8M... potato potahto. But, ya know, facts.

 

[NikC]

You can thumb your nose at them all you like, but it makes you look foolish. Sure, he landed two of the best players in the game, but he also flipped Alex Goligoski for James Neal and Matt Niskanen, traded Ryan Whitney for Chris Kunitz, drafted Kris Letang in the 3rd round, made a bold move to trade up to ensure they could draft a franchise goalie, and turned Jordan Staal into three very good assets when there were only two teams in the league who he was realistically interested in re-signing with.

Who do you think signed that "top young talent" to "reasonable prices"?



Your "assessment" of my post is nothing more than the same drivel that most Rangers fans like to trot out when their team is criticized. Thumb your nose at a team who is a perennial contender because "We didn't have to tank!" and yet here we are, struggling to make the playoffs again while the Pens have the #1 seed locked up again and are favorites to win the cup again.

All the moves you listed above are about are merely good moves in the absence of inheriting Superstar talent signed at entry level prices. Just because you get a lump in your throat and your eyes glisten when you think about them doesn't mean i have to.

If you want to draw comparisons to a well built/developed team, then point to Boston. It takes zero effort to align your position with the darlings of the NHL draft and the poster boy of the NHL.

 

[nyranger61494]

TRX, the '99 draft by ALL accounts, not just one or ten teams, but ALL the league thought that draft was going to be a once in decade type draft, the new millenium was upon us

The timing was right too. We had no one. Savard was still too small by the 1990's mentality, Richter was still 'ok' so Cloutier was expendable. The #1 the year after was read correctly, that was not a good draft, better to have two in '99 than one in 2000. That was the mindset back then. Neil Smith made alot of bad moves and post Cup the picks were so far from good, but I think he gets an unfair amount of abuse for trying to inject the system with more youth to go along with Manny taken a year earlier, and they were two guys that had been pretty fantastic skilled phenoms.

Is that what the motivation was on Savard? I thought there were rumblings about personality issues turning off veterans, too? He had pretty respectable numbers in his limited NHL experience.

I always liked Sundstrom, too but I can see how he was viewed as expendable.

Interesting on Richter. He was relatively healthy at the time and only 31.

I do remember there being a big buzz around Lundmark and Brendl and that Rangers had hit homerun. It certainly seemed a little bit rushed but if these guys are Perry/Getzlaf or Richards/Carter, it's viewed quite differently.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Is that what the motivation was on Savard? I thought there were rumblings about personality issues turning off veterans, too? He had pretty respectable numbers in his limited NHL experience.

As I recall, it was both. Size issues and he rubbed some vets the wrong way.

I always liked Sundstrom, too but I can see how he was viewed as expendable.

Once they had him all but dealt in the Palffy trade, they felt they had to move him. I always thought he would be a great piece on a good team and mediocre part of a bad team.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Drury was being paid $5m by Buffalo, NY overpaid for him. no surprise here. Briere got $8M. The market hasn't changed that much for players with respective pts/goals. Your "facts" are skewed to fit your argument. Just because Buffalo used him on their third line, means he had the skillset of a third line player according to you?

Drury pretty much did have the skillset of a third line player. Gritty, good defensively/positionally, and mostly average offensive skill. What separated him from other third line players was his net-front prowess/hands/PP production. He was never a player who created offense on his own. The Rangers thought he was, and they were wrong.

BS. What 3rd line player puts up points the way he did in both the regular/post seasons? How many GWG did he have?

One who a) specializes in scoring on the PP and b) one who has an extremely high shooting percentage that is not sustainable (17.4 and 18.6 with Buffalo)

Weren't you making this same exact argument for Dubinsky being bonafide 2C @ 45-50pts a few years back?

Was I? I don't remember. If I did, well, I was wrong. People learn from their wrong thought processes, you know.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

As I recall, it was both. Size issues and he rubbed some vets the wrong way

Yea, I always wondered what the deal was with that.

Judging by those teams, it might've had something with Savard wanting to play hard.