Rumor: All Encompassing Jimmy Vesey Thread. All Rumors/News goes here. Part V

[krt88]

The dumbest word in the sports vocabulary is superstar.

Please someone tell me the hockey player today who truly is a superstar? Known everywhere they go for playing hockey?

Michael Jordan was known globally for playing basketball. Ali was known globally for being the heavyweight champ. Now most people heard of Gretzky, the only true superstar player I ever saw.

Lots of players are stars but we have turned everyone into WWE characters when in truth, superstars are for Hollywood!

 

[hockeydoug]

I doubt that a third round pick would have done it a year and a half ago. These kind of trades happen near the end when a team has made its best shot and failed and UFA is a month or so away.

How many examples are there of these types of trades?
Most that I come up with were minute portions of larger trades.

And no one but the team that drafted him can pitch anything, be it last week or a year and a half ago, until they either acquire the rights or he becomes a UFA. That is tampering with large penalties as we have seen in the past.

The pitch is indirect and consists of roster construction, team performance, management's handling or personnel, system, coaching, etc. There's alot more to it than just what management says to his face on this point.

 

[Coach Travis]

Pens just re-signed Cullen so I'm thinking Vesey said "Thanks for the cookies but no thanks"

 

[Beacon]

I think one of the NYR, NJD or NYI make the most sense for him but that is just my opinion.

If you have a choice of teams, why go to the one that can realistically get into financial trouble and even relocate?

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Chicago is well on their way down?

I'd disagree.

A team can only evade the salary cap for so long with aging Hossa plus two 10.5 million dollar players.

 

[COHawk]

I'm in the process of home buying right now. This sh** doesn't happen overnight. If it's true, then he's made his decision on NYR more than a few weeks ago.

Hard to imagine Vesey buys a condo before he gets his first paycheck...

 

[FLYLine27*]

Hard to imagine Vesey buys a condo before he gets his first paycheck...

Well, to be fair it said he AND Hayes bought a condo together..Hayes has more than enough money to put down the down payment for the both of them..

 

[Kitchener Boy]

A team can only evade the salary cap for so long with aging Hossa plus two 10.5 million dollar players.

And a 29th ranked prospect pool.

 

[Irishguy42]

Pens just re-signed Cullen so I'm thinking Vesey said "Thanks for the cookies but no thanks"

Dupuis on LTIR would only allow them to go $3.75M above cap, right? They're already at $3.3M. No room for Vesey without another move.

 

[Greek_physique]

LOL, they live in Toronto.....

His dad works for the Leafs, but actually lives in Mass.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Dupuis on LTIR would only allow them to go $3.75M above cap, right? They're already at $3.3M. No room for Vesey without another move.

They have room ... just ... for Vesey.

They have enough to sign him this year and defer any bonuses to next year, when they will free up a ton of cap space.

And GMJR just confirmed that they were still pursuing him.

 

[emodwarf]

I disagree.

I think it was an unintended consequence of how different the collegiate route and the Canadian junior route is.

This is partially a direct response to you, but mainly for anyone who shares your view.

Here's (I think) the relevant section of the CBA:

Section 8.6c
(i) If a Player drafted at age 18 or 19 is a bona fide college student at the time
of his selection in the Entry Draft, or becomes a bona fide college student
prior to the first June 1 following his selection in the Entry Draft, and
remains a bona fide college student through the graduation of his college
class, his drafting Club shall retain the exclusive right of negotiation for
his services through and including the August 15 following the graduation
of his college class. The Club need not make a Bona Fide Offer to such
Player to retain such rights.

This isn't a loophole. For a certain time frame, you have exclusive signing rights for a player you draft. With college players, it's defined above. College players have the opportunity to finish their degree, teams don't lose their rights before that happens.

Just because one or two college picks each year go the free agent route instead of signing with the team that drafted them doesn't make it a loophole.

Just because you don't like those students exercising that right, doesn't make it a loophole.

Just because these rare cases can turn into a media circus and pitch fest from interested teams, doesn't make it a loophole.

Teams aren't obligated to sign their draft picks to an ELC. Players aren't obligated to sign an ELC with the team that drafted them. Either side can run out the clock. Do you claim LOOPHOLE! when a team doesn't sign a draft pick that didn't develop as the team hoped?

Both the players union and the owners agreed to the CBA. This scenario isn't a loophole. Or even an unintended consequence - it's simply a consequence (and a rare one at that). When a first round pick college player opts for free agency, the drafting team gets compensated with a second round pick - so it's not like the owners didn't think of this scenario.

 

[Irishguy42]

They have room ... just ... for Vesey.

They have enough to sign him this year and defer any bonuses to next year, when they will free up a ton of cap space.

And GMJR just confirmed that they were still pursuing him.

Correct, but I don't think max ELC is an option for this coming year, if I'm doing my math right?

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Correct, but I don't think max ELC is an option for this coming year, if I'm doing my math right?

That is a shade under a million.

As I said, they have that, but just barely.

 

[Zippy316]

This is partially a direct response to you, but mainly for anyone who shares your view.

Here's (I think) the relevant section of the CBA:



This isn't a loophole. For a certain time frame, you have exclusive signing rights for a player you draft. With college players, it's defined above. College players have the opportunity to finish their degree, teams don't lose their rights before that happens.

Just because one or two college picks each year go the free agent route instead of signing with the team that drafted them doesn't make it a loophole.

Just because you don't like those students exercising that right, doesn't make it a loophole.

Just because these rare cases can turn into a media circus and pitch fest from interested teams, doesn't make it a loophole.

Teams aren't obligated to sign their draft picks to an ELC. Players aren't obligated to sign an ELC with the team that drafted them. Either side can run out the clock. Do you claim LOOPHOLE! when a team doesn't sign a draft pick that didn't develop as the team hoped?

Both the players union and the owners agreed to the CBA. This scenario isn't a loophole. Or even an unintended consequence - it's simply a consequence (and a rare one at that). When a first round pick college player opts for free agency, the drafting team gets compensated with a second round pick - so it's not like the owners didn't think of this scenario.

I don't have a problem with players doing it at all. If it's in their rights then take it and control your future, it's the smart decision. The media really just makes this a bigger deal then it has to be as you said and puts incredible spotlight on it because it is the only hockey news at this point in time. That spotlight often rubs people the wrong way as all of the hockey media is focused on a kid who hasn't played a single game.

I did not realize there was a specific passage. My initial response was on the belief that this was an unintended consequence of college players finishing at a later age than Canadian juniors and therefore being eligible to become free agents because of it. From what I understand, teams hold rights for draft picks in North America for two years after they were drafted. A normal 18 year old draft pick in the CHL can re-enter the draft at 20 years old or sign with any team he wishes. A collegiate player isn't able to sign because he will lose his eligibility.

In reality, there really is no right way to handle this issue. I'm sure there will be legal issues if a college player is forced by the CBA to sign with his draft team. The 18 year old CHL player in the example above can test his luck at a new team in the draft if he doesn't like the team that drafted him. I would imagine that is not an option for NCAA bound players because teams would fear losing picks just two years later.

 

[Eric Sachs]

Correct, but I don't think max ELC is an option for this coming year, if I'm doing my math right?

the 'max ELC' cap hit is misleading. it's only that full amount if a player hits all their bonuses, including the ridiculously hard to hit B bonuses.

with the easiest to attain A bonuses, an ELC would cap out on at 975k (salary with ELC) + 850k bonuses = 1.725M

the B bonuses push that up another ~2M but those are things like winning NHL awards, etc.

Vesey won't hit those. Almost no players on ELCs do.

even then, teams only need room for the base 975k salary. if the player ends up hitting bonuses, the team is charged the cap space at that point in time. they can also roll over any performance bonuses they cannot fit under the cap into the next season (at the expense of future cap space).

 

[SI90]

One things for certain. As soon as he signs, the teams fans that he didn't sign with with start the overrated talk.

 

[Zippy316]

One things for certain. As soon as he signs, the teams fans that he didn't sign with with start the overrated talk.

And don't forget the "how could he spurn Nashville like that" talk.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

One things for certain. As soon as he signs, the teams fans that he didn't sign with with start the overrated talk.

Meh, even if he does sign with the Pens I have already said that he will not live up to the hype.

Comments here have included a 35 goal ceiling and 25 goal floor.

I think overrated has already left the barn and headed down the highway even if he turns out to be a good player.

 

[Irishguy42]

the 'max ELC' cap hit is misleading. it's only that full amount if a player hits all their bonuses, including the ridiculously hard to hit B bonuses.

with the easiest to attain A bonuses, an ELC would cap out on at 975k (salary with ELC) + 850k bonuses = 1.725M

the B bonuses push that up another ~2M but those are things like winning NHL awards, etc.

Vesey won't hit those. Almost no players on ELCs do.

even then, teams only need room for the base 975k salary. if the player ends up hitting bonuses, the team is charged the cap space at that point in time. they can also roll over any performance bonuses they cannot fit under the cap into the next season (at the expense of future cap space).

That's what I'm talking about. The difference between the LTIR relief Dupuis would provide compared to how much the Pens are over isn't 975k, IIRC. Pens are over the cap by at least $3M, and Dupuis only provides $3.75M in relief. Not enough of a difference for max salary.

 

[None Shall Pass]

If you have a choice of teams, why go to the one that can realistically get into financial trouble and even relocate?

Both of those bolded teams have brand-spanking new arenas, billionaire owners and sick cable deals. Better check your facts dude, neither is going anywhere. Well, maybe the Islanders move an hour or two away in a few years.

 

[BK]

And a 29th ranked prospect pool.

The prospect pool has taken a hit but a year or two of solid drafting (which Bowman has done in the past) can fix this.

A lot of the cap issues for the Hawks are fixed after next year and Kruger comes off the year after that. The biggest deciding factor with the Hawks cap situation will be if the cap goes up. Toronto and Montreal being bad last year along with the canadian dollar falling apart killed the cap this year. If the dollar can recover and the major hockey markets in Canada can help increase HRR pushing the cap up then the Hawks will be in much better shape with the cap.

I think the Hawks have a chance with Vesey because they can offer a winning environment, a chance to player on a line with Kane and Toews, and examples of young players getting a chance in the top 6 (Saad and Panarin). I don't think they Hawks are the favorite but they have a damn good chance.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Getting a young star is seen by fans as a total change, but it is not. Sidney/Malkin, Ovechkin/Backstrom, Toews/Kane, Lundqvist/Jagr, you almost always need 2 superstars or to have a ton of depth.

Neither Toronto nor Buffalo has a lot of depth, nor a second superstar.

You should do some research before posting.

Buffalo had the #1 prospect pool prior to the 2015 draft. Now they don't, because a bunch of those players are on the team. eg: Buffalo has enough quality wingers to go three deep on scoring lines.

Speaking of which, they also have the centers to do so. It's not just Eichel. O'Reilly in an All-Star, and in won't be long before Reinhart gets to that level.

Eichel/Reinhart will be the two superstars.

 

[Eric Sachs]

That's what I'm talking about. The difference between the LTIR relief Dupuis would provide compared to how much the Pens are over isn't 975k, IIRC. Pens are over the cap by at least $3M, and Dupuis only provides $3.75M in relief. Not enough of a difference for max salary.

If you're looking at GeneralFanager, keep in mind that its currently showing a full 23 man roster.

Signing Vesey and keeping him in the NHL means another player goes down.. which will automatically open up enough cap space.

 

[ziggy7716]

Andy Graziano, a guy who covers the Islanders, tweeted that a source told him the Vesey camp informed two teams that they are out and the Isles are NOT one of them. If I had to take a guess I would say he said see you later to Pittsburgh and Toronto. That would leave NYI, NYR, NJD, BUF, CHI, and BOS