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AEW All Elite Wrestling #8: Grabbing the Brass Ring of Honor

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BruinDust said:
I tried giving AEW a chance. I really did. But their product is just too difficult to follow for a casual fan.

The part I find ironic is where did WCW really start it's downturn? I'd argue it was early 1998 and the addition of WCW Thunder and the extra hour added to Nitro. Bischoff didn't want it but Turner did.

I'd argue the WWF Attitude era peaked in early-to-mid 1999 and the addition of Smackdown and 2 more hours of TV to produce every week hurt the overall product. Sure your getting the additional revenue but from a fan-interest standpoint it became too much for a lot of fans, especially more casual fans. The added two hours pushed Russo out the door as all he saw was his workload doubled but his paycheque stayed the same.

If AEW had just kept their roster and storylines tight and focused on producing the best two hour weekly wrestling program they could, they'd be doing fine right now and growing. Really seems like a case of "too much, too soon" and interest in their product isn't growing but waning.
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lol. Sure that's Russo's side of the story.

Everyone else who worked with him claimed he complained about not being given more control and Vince McMahon vetoing 90% of his dumber ideas and he didn't like having a leash and sulked.

Vince Russo worked the Jerry Springer crash TV style decently with a McMahon Filter. Stuff like Austin Filling the Corvette with Cement, attacking him in a hospital bed . Without that Filter he had shit like Bret Hart running over Sid with a Monster truck for no reason, Judy Bagwell on a pole matches Himself beating Booker t for the WCW title wearing football gear, and even Actor Dave Arquette winning the title lol.

Even with the Vinnie Mac Filter, he still pushed through some dumb stuff and those were not the segments folks came out to watch. Nobody wanted to see Meat get his drink spiked with Viagra wearing a dildo under his tights so Bossman could whack it with a nightstick, or Mark Henry getting tricked into getting head from a T, beaver Cleavage, John Bobbitt saving Val Venus from getting his peepee chopped off by a Katana or the Terri Runnels Miscarriage stories. We "tolerated' those segments while waiting to watch DX, the Rock and Austin. And really Russo only had major sway with the undercard and Midcard guys while occasionally getting an idea that made it to the top guys..

In WCW circa 1996 to 1999 before Russo most of us watched the Undercard more than the main card because we wanted to watch Benoit, Guerrero, Ultimo Dragon, Juvintud, La parka, Psicosis, Jericho and Mysterio types having fantastic matches while we barely tolerated the top guys boring stories lol. As hyped as the NWO and sting and Goldberg were, the real reason to watch WCW was always the Cruiserweights and just about everyone at school agreed as those were the matches we taped and replayed over and over. The NWO was a powerful Storyline right up until it got stale, which was about a few months in. And the payoff was so bad when they flubbed the Sting finish.



Despite what folks will hype about WCW, THIS is why we watched it so long.

WWE tried to make a "Light heavyweight" division, but it only had like 2 people for years lol. Taka Michinoku was fun to watch, but he didn't have a lot to work with and was barely present.

As common as those acrobatics are now, they were new and rare at the time in North America and folks tuned in to watch it.

Russo felt the wrestling didn't matter, only the crash stories. Well his crash TV stories made WCW go from bad to unwatchable very quickly because his only Filter was standards and practices.
 
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BruinDust said:
I tried giving AEW a chance. I really did. But their product is just too difficult to follow for a casual fan.

The part I find ironic is where did WCW really start it's downturn? I'd argue it was early 1998 and the addition of WCW Thunder and the extra hour added to Nitro. Bischoff didn't want it but Turner did.

I'd argue the WWF Attitude era peaked in early-to-mid 1999 and the addition of Smackdown and 2 more hours of TV to produce every week hurt the overall product. Sure your getting the additional revenue but from a fan-interest standpoint it became too much for a lot of fans, especially more casual fans. The added two hours pushed Russo out the door as all he saw was his workload doubled but his paycheque stayed the same.

If AEW had just kept their roster and storylines tight and focused on producing the best two hour weekly wrestling program they could, they'd be doing fine right now and growing. Really seems like a case of "too much, too soon" and interest in their product isn't growing but waning.
Click to expand...

Myself, I'd argue that TK is trying to do WAY too much....put together the AEW shows AND trying to restart ROH. His announcement that he was going to bring back Ring of Honor should have been the end of it and he should spent the next few months signing wrestlers for that brand instead of mentioning them on Dynamite and Rampage. Having a lot of your roster dealing with injuries over the summer didn't help matters, either(Omega, Danielson, etc.)>
 
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67 others said:
lol. Sure that's Russo's side of the story.

Everyone else who worked with him claimed he complained about not being given more control and Vince McMahon vetoing 90% of his dumber ideas and he didn't like having a leash and sulked.

Vince Russo worked the Jerry Springer crash TV style decently with a McMahon Filter. Stuff like Austin Filling the Corvette with Cement, attacking him in a hospital bed . Without that Filter he had shit like Bret Hart running over Sid with a Monster truck for no reason, Judy Bagwell on a pole matches Himself beating Booker t for the WCW title wearing football gear, and even Actor Dave Arquette winning the title lol.

Even with the Vinnie Mac Filter, he still pushed through some dumb stuff and those were not the segments folks came out to watch. Nobody wanted to see Meat get his drink spiked with Viagra wearing a dildo under his tights so Bossman could whack it with a nightstick, or Mark Henry getting tricked into getting head from a T, beaver Cleavage, John Bobbitt saving Val Venus from getting his peepee chopped off by a Katana or the Terri Runnels Miscarriage stories. We "tolerated' those segments while waiting to watch DX, the Rock and Austin. And really Russo only had major sway with the undercard and Midcard guys while occasionally getting an idea that made it to the top guys..

In WCW circa 1996 to 1999 before Russo most of us watched the Undercard more than the main card because we wanted to watch Benoit, Guerrero, Ultimo Dragon, Juvintud, La parka, Psicosis, Jericho and Mysterio types having fantastic matches while we barely tolerated the top guys boring stories lol. As hyped as the NWO and sting and Goldberg were, the real reason to watch WCW was always the Cruiserweights and just about everyone at school agreed as those were the matches we taped and replayed over and over. The NWO was a powerful Storyline right up until it got stale, which was about a few months in. And the payoff was so bad when they flubbed the Sting finish.



Despite what folks will hype about WCW, THIS is why we watched it so long.

WWE tried to make a "Light heavyweight" division, but it only had like 2 people for years lol. Taka Michinoku was fun to watch, but he didn't have a lot to work with and was barely present.

As common as those acrobatics are now, they were new and rare at the time in North America and folks tuned in to watch it.

Russo felt the wrestling didn't matter, only the crash stories. Well his crash TV stories made WCW go from bad to unwatchable very quickly because his only Filter was standards and practices.
Click to expand...


No disrespect but I'm not about to get into a Russo debate. I don't even like the guy and find him severely overrated. Russo wasn't the point of my post. Just the fact that adding 2 hours of TV per week to write for pushed him to WCW. My point is AEW has gone overboard with the amount of TV they are producing and the sheer number of wrestlers they put on TV and it's hurting the growth of their product.
 
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ckg927 said:
Myself, I'd argue that TK is trying to do WAY too much....put together the AEW shows AND trying to restart ROH. His announcement that he was going to bring back Ring of Honor should have been the end of it and he should spent the next few months signing wrestlers for that brand instead of mentioning them on Dynamite and Rampage. Having a lot of your roster dealing with injuries over the summer didn't help matters, either(Omega, Danielson, etc.)>
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Absolutely. He's spread to thin. His roster and other employees have no direction. And by featuring ROH on AEW TV he's also caused a lot of title inflation. Too many champions, too many titles. He would of been better off buying the ROH trademarks and video library and handing ROH over to someone(s) else to manage and book. Maybe the first year of so have ROH basically be a few select special events/PPVs (say 3 or 4) and re-establish the brand and later on begin incorporating some ROH talent and storylines onto AEW TV. Instead he bought it and tossed it on AEW TV and just added to the problem of the roster size and writing good stories and keeping casual fans engaged and coming back. It's the casual fans who will help grow his business he already has the hardcore pro wrestling fans.
 
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BruinDust said:
No disrespect but I'm not about to get into a Russo debate. I don't even like the guy and find him severely overrated. Russo wasn't the point of my post. Just the fact that adding 2 hours of TV per week to write for pushed him to WCW. My point is AEW has gone overboard with the amount of TV they are producing and the sheer number of wrestlers they put on TV and it's hurting the growth of their product.
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Wut?
Ok, I am not disagreeing with you on the product dilution.

But....

WCW put out Thursday night Thunder before smackdown was a thing. A full year before actually in January 98. Smackdown was a reaction to Thunder. To finance Thunder, they Increased Monday nitro to 3 hours to get extra ad revenue with the same production costs. At this point, time warner became budget fiscal conservative and wanted to see nothing but growth to prop up their merger with AOL. Monday night raw did not go to 3 hours at the time.

The fabrication that Russo left because he didn't like having another show and had to work too much is all I disagree with because he left a place where he was only fractionally involved that had 4 hours a week television to a place where he was in full control of creative with 5 hours a week of TV. He wanted that full control, got it, and stunk it up worse than it was.

When Bischoff got sent home, Busch offered Russo full control and more money + more work and responsibilities and he took it
 
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It kinda goes back to what Punk said about younger wrestlers not listening to OGs.

Who is Khan getting advice from? Is he ignoring them? I watch AEW over WWE im critical of them because them and NJPW got me back into wrestling and would hate for them to fold or become like Impact.

Khan does waaaaaaay too much to try and compete with WWE and then he whines how they treat him.

Not only does Khan have dudes who have wrestled in the 70s and 80s in his backstage but also some guys from the 90s and 2000s that were successful.
 
67 others said:
Wut?
Ok, I am not disagreeing with you on the product dilution.

But....

WCW put out Thursday night Thunder before smackdown was a thing. A full year before actually in January 98. Smackdown was a reaction to Thunder. To finance Thunder, they Increased Monday nitro to 3 hours to get extra ad revenue with the same production costs. At this point, time warner became budget fiscal conservative and wanted to see nothing but growth to prop up their merger with AOL. Monday night raw did not go to 3 hours at the time.

The fabrication that Russo left because he didn't like having another show and had to work too much is all I disagree with because he left a place where he was only fractionally involved that had 4 hours a week television to a place where he was in full control of creative with 5 hours a week of TV. He wanted that full control, got it, and stunk it up worse than it was.

When Bischoff got sent home, Busch offered Russo full control and more money + more work and responsibilities and he took it
Click to expand...

I guess the difference is how much were they paying him at the WWF to write (help write) Raw and SD vs. what they were paying him to produce the 3 hour Nitro and 2 hours of Thunder per week. The more money was likely a lot more money, like impossible-to-turn-down type of money. Plus total control like you said, not having to get his ideas (a lot of bad ones) cleared before putting them on TV. I think we're pretty much in agreement regarding Jim Cornette's BFF Russo.
 
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BruinDust said:
I guess the difference is how much were they paying him at the WWF to write (help write) Raw and SD vs. what they were paying him to produce the 3 hour Nitro and 2 hours of Thunder per week. The more money was likely a lot more money, like impossible-to-turn-down type of money. Plus total control like you said, not having to get his ideas (a lot of bad ones) cleared before putting them on TV. I think we're pretty much in agreement regarding Jim Cornette's BFF Russo.
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The numbers are public record now. He was being paid $350000 a year in WWF and got $500000 a year in WCW. So yeah he definitely got a raise.

Cornette...lol. Cornette is funny as hell and can whip out a mean promo and can coach a heel into getting heat, But he himself is like, exactly the same as Russo, just opposite if that makes any sense. Russo hates wrestling and is in it just for the crash TV aspect. Cornette hates crash TV and is in it just for the wrestling aspect.

To this day, Cornette says Vince McMahon killed "Real Wrestling" without a hint of irony. Even in the late 90's, he seems to think that 95% of the fans weren't in on the joke that PW was pre-determined and a "show" tells you how out of touch that redneck Cornette really was/is. Vince Mcmahon didn't kill "real wrestling". Time and common sense did.
 
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67 others said:
The numbers are public record now. He was being paid $350000 a year in WWF and got $500000 a year in WCW. So yeah he definitely got a raise.

Cornette...lol. Cornette is funny as hell and can whip out a mean promo and can coach a heel into getting heat, But he himself is like, exactly the same as Russo, just opposite if that makes any sense. Russo hates wrestling and is in it just for the crash TV aspect. Cornette hates crash TV and is in it just for the wrestling aspect.

To this day, Cornette says Vince McMahon killed "Real Wrestling" without a hint of irony. Even in the late 90's, he seems to think that 95% of the fans weren't in on the joke that PW was pre-determined and a "show" tells you how out of touch that redneck Cornette really was/is. Vince Mcmahon didn't kill "real wrestling". Time and common sense did.
Click to expand...

Used to like Cornette after some episodes of Dark Side of the ring………not so much. Dude just whines all the time and thinks hes right about everything. His heat with Russo is humorous tho.
 
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67 others said:
The numbers are public record now. He was being paid $350000 a year in WWF and got $500000 a year in WCW. So yeah he definitely got a raise.

Cornette...lol. Cornette is funny as hell and can whip out a mean promo and can coach a heel into getting heat, But he himself is like, exactly the same as Russo, just opposite if that makes any sense. Russo hates wrestling and is in it just for the crash TV aspect. Cornette hates crash TV and is in it just for the wrestling aspect.

To this day, Cornette says Vince McMahon killed "Real Wrestling" without a hint of irony. Even in the late 90's, he seems to think that 95% of the fans weren't in on the joke that PW was pre-determined and a "show" tells you how out of touch that redneck Cornette really was/is. Vince Mcmahon didn't kill "real wrestling". Time and common sense did.
Click to expand...


I used to like Cornette's podcast but after a short while I grew tired of his rants and stopped listening, even though he had some great ones and more than one directed at Russo. Him and Russo are a lot alike IMO, two massive egos but strong in their convictions. They are on complete opposite sides of the wrestling spectrum as you pointed out.
 
BruinDust said:
I used to like Cornette's podcast but after a short while I grew tired of his rants and stopped listening, even though he had some great ones and more than one directed at Russo. Him and Russo are a lot alike IMO, two massive egos but strong in their convictions. They are on complete opposite sides of the wrestling spectrum as you pointed out.
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Bischoff is better than both. Better than Heyman too who I used to love.
 
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I think it's 3 things.

Increasing the scale works if you're selling more, but they're not. Their goal should still be to get as many people in the building as possible, and of course wanting to come back. Less people in the building means they're selling less merch too.

They also oversaturate a number of their markets. How many times do they go to Chicago? New York as well. WWE had the same problem late last year when their annual day-after-christmas house show did so poorly. They've barely been out west. We'll have to see how San Francisco and Seattle does.

Also, people now know CM Punk isn't there and don't know when - or if - he's coming back (again). People can say whatever they want about him and what happened, and how they feel about him now and whether or not they feel slighted (again) about it, he was still the biggest star. If he wasn't with crowds, he certainly was to the networks. Fox brought him back for a reason and were hoping he'd end up back in WWE. Not having him makes AEW a less valuable TV property to whatever degree that it is, his leaving or absence matters more to them than WWE and that's a fact.
 
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Sammy has a damn good point but Andrade would rip him into tiny little pieces if they fought

Seems like everybody has a problem with that kid. I don’t think his heat with the crowd is MJF heat either, it’s more XPac heat. Tough to become a star like that. I like him in his role but he seems to be the common denominator in a lot of the out-of-ring bullshit
 
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Just bring back
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