Player Discussion Alexis Lafreniere

[ReddestRum]

It was more for my benefit than yours, to be honest, as I was interested in looking at a more apples to apples comparison.

All good my man. My bad.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

It's because of the following.
1. He took more than double the amount of PP FO as Zibanejad, while rocking a 60% rate.
2. He's a right hand shot.

didn't stop them from replacing him with Kane

 

[TGWL]

didn't stop them from replacing him with Kane

Our young core doesn't pass or handle the puck like Kane. For all the even strength flaws, not putting Kane on the PP is straight up asinine.

 

[Larrybiv]

Thanks for posting this video. My dad always said you have to give a guy time to mature. That does not mean they always do become good but you never want to give up too soon.

In terms of Laf and Kaako I think we need to see 110-120 points from them combined next season to have significantly more hope for their futures.

You, your Dad (R.I.P) and I really all do think alike in regard to this. Hell, when I was 21, about a hundred years ago.......I was too busy screwing up my life and wasting so much valuable time. For crying out loud, LAF is still only 21! Looks like a man, but from what I can tell........acts like a child. But that's okay, I guess. That "little boy" is in all of us, but it just looks really bad when he grins, smiles and laughs when he takes a penalty (unnecessary at that, which makes it worse) that hurts the team. Once he figures out that this is "no joke/laughing matter" and now it's time to be serious, is when maybe many of us will be a little more patient. We are frustrated, impatient Rangers fans. Be careful Laf, people forget you are still, but a kid.

110-120 sounds about right/feasible. 55-60 for EACH is much better than 70 for KK and 45-50 for Laf. Me thinks they will each get their 60+. Thanks for reading.

 

[NickyFotiu]

You, your Dad (R.I.P) and I really all do think alike in regard to this. Hell, when I was 21, about a hundred years ago.......I was too busy screwing up my life and wasting so much valuable time. For crying out loud, LAF is still only 21! Looks like a man, but from what I can tell........acts like a child. But that's okay, I guess. That "little boy" is in all of us, but it just looks really bad when he grins, smiles and laughs when he takes a penalty (unnecessary at that, which makes it worse) that hurts the team. Once he figures out that this is "no joke/laughing matter" and now it's time to be serious, is when maybe many of us will be a little more patient. We are frustrated, impatient Rangers fans. Be careful Laf, people forget you are still, but a kid.

110-120 sounds about right/feasible. 55-60 for EACH is much better than 70 for KK and 45-50 for Laf. Me thinks they will each get their 60+. Thanks for reading.

Nice to see you as always Larry. You are right. We forget how young these guys are mentally. Hopefully things go Lafs way this season and he matures in many ways. Ditto KK.

 

[Peltz]

Fox became a top D by producing. He wasn't just givin it.

Fox's performance and ascension isn't a fair benchmark for other young players on the team though... even for a 1st overall like Laf.

Let's be realistic here. We are lucky to have Fox and when you say stuff like that, it takes for granted just how elite he is. He'd be the number 1 guy on any NHL team that doesn't have Makar or Karlson on it. And he didn't even get his PP1 opportunities until Tony DeAngelo was permanently benched.

So yes, Fox earned an opportunity, but was also partially gifted that opportunity on an accelerated timeline due to locker room issues.

Laf isn't going to get on that PP1 squad without a lot of luck. And his trajectory won't be anything like Fox's. And to expect anything different is just setting yourself up for serious disappointment.

You get zero or one Fox-like talents on your team every generation. That's it.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Fox's performance and ascension isn't a fair benchmark for other young players on the team though... even for a 1st overall like Laf.

Let's be realistic here. We are lucky to have Fox and when you say stuff like that, it takes for granted just how elite he is. He'd be the number 1 guy on any NHL team that doesn't have Makar or Karlson on it. And he didn't even get his PP1 opportunities until Tony DeAngelo was permanently benched.

So yes, Fox earned an opportunity, but was also partially gifted that opportunity on an accelerated timeline due to locker room issues.

Laf isn't going to get on that PP1 squad without a lot of luck. And his trajectory won't be anything like Fox's. And to expect anything different is just setting yourself up for serious disappointment.

You get zero or one Fox-like talents on your team every generation. That's it.

Ok so how do you earn an opportunity to get onto that power play?

Because this very much feels like a catch -22.

"to earn a power play spot you have to outscore someone on that PP"
only its impossible to outscore someone who's getting pp time.

 

[SA16]

How about we try to win games instead of trying to waste time further developing a lost cause?

 

[will1066]

How about we try to win games instead of trying to waste time further developing a lost cause?

Said Gallant to Drury.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Fox's performance and ascension isn't a fair benchmark for other young players on the team though... even for a 1st overall like Laf.

Let's be realistic here. We are lucky to have Fox and when you say stuff like that, it takes for granted just how elite he is. He'd be the number 1 guy on any NHL team that doesn't have Makar or Karlson on it. And he didn't even get his PP1 opportunities until Tony DeAngelo was permanently benched.

So yes, Fox earned an opportunity, but was also partially gifted that opportunity on an accelerated timeline due to locker room issues.

Laf isn't going to get on that PP1 squad without a lot of luck. And his trajectory won't be anything like Fox's. And to expect anything different is just setting yourself up for serious disappointment.

You get zero or one Fox-like talents on your team every generation. That's it.

If Laf plays like a #1 OA the coaches will be thrilled to play him 19 minutes a game and on the PP a bunch. Nobody wants Laf to play like a #1 OA more than the coaches and management. Hopefully that is coming soon. It will not be luck. If Laf plays like Mathews, Hughes, or other #1 picks they will want him on the ice as much as possible. There is no reason a guy has to wait till the 17th, 18th or 19th minute on the ice to shine. You can play great in the first and second periods. If you do the coach will give you more and more minutes. In fact if you dominate in training camp and practice you will often get more minutes. I guarantee if Laf or any young player plays great they will get a lot of minutes.

 

[Ruggs225]

Fox's performance and ascension isn't a fair benchmark for other young players on the team though... even for a 1st overall like Laf.

Let's be realistic here. We are lucky to have Fox and when you say stuff like that, it takes for granted just how elite he is. He'd be the number 1 guy on any NHL team that doesn't have Makar or Karlson on it. And he didn't even get his PP1 opportunities until Tony DeAngelo was permanently benched.

So yes, Fox earned an opportunity, but was also partially gifted that opportunity on an accelerated timeline due to locker room issues.

Laf isn't going to get on that PP1 squad without a lot of luck. And his trajectory won't be anything like Fox's. And to expect anything different is just setting yourself up for serious disappointment.

You get zero or one Fox-like talents on your team every generation. That's it.

Fox also had 3 years of college. So he came into the league older, more mature.

I believe age wise, this would be the same age for laf as Fox’s rookie season.

 

[bhamill]

How about we try to win games instead of trying to waste time further developing a lost cause?

A lost cause at 21! He's very advanced.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

how about we all raise the expectation bar a bit higher for both of these guys? how about performing at a higher expected level of play rather than act as placeholders until the trade deadline for guys we can't afford to resign? then those placeholders wind up back on the kiddie line? no more trying to cracking the 40 pt barrier. the coddling/training wheels shit has got to stop.

 

[Peltz]

Ok so how do you earn an opportunity to get onto that power play?

Because this very much feels like a catch -22.

"to earn a power play spot you have to outscore someone on that PP"
only its impossible to outscore someone who's getting pp time.

Laf and/or Kakko will get a PP1 opportunity if:

A. enough injuries happen,
B. the powerplay sucks with current personnel
C. either of them break out in a big way at even strength and become our hottest players.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

how about we all raise the expectation bar a bit higher for both of these guys? how about performing at a higher expected level of play rather than act as placeholders until the trade deadline for guys we can't afford to resign? then those placeholders wind up back on the kiddie line? no more trying to cracking the 40 pt barrier. the coddling/training wheels shit has got to stop.

Expectations have always been high.

Part of the solution is the coaches/management having enough faith to take the training wheels off and live with either of them sinking or swimming.

 

[JHS]

Fox became a top D by producing. He wasn't just givin it.

Exactly right. This is why this Laf convo is impossible. People here legit rewrite history to say no player ever earns anything— that it’s somehow a conspiracy to crush Laf’s potential. So bad!

 

[JHS]

Fox's performance and ascension isn't a fair benchmark for other young players on the team though... even for a 1st overall like Laf.

Let's be realistic here. We are lucky to have Fox and when you say stuff like that, it takes for granted just how elite he is. He'd be the number 1 guy on any NHL team that doesn't have Makar or Karlson on it. And he didn't even get his PP1 opportunities until Tony DeAngelo was permanently benched.

So yes, Fox earned an opportunity, but was also partially gifted that opportunity on an accelerated timeline due to locker room issues.

Laf isn't going to get on that PP1 squad without a lot of luck. And his trajectory won't be anything like Fox's. And to expect anything different is just setting yourself up for serious disappointment.

You get zero or one Fox-like talents on your team every generation. That's it.

No- you are literally re-writing history. You said he was not “gifted” the opportunity. Ok- sure, but he EARNED that opportunity once one presented itself. Sorry to tell you but that’s how life works. You don’t just get opportunities, you take advantage of them once they have been given to you. Then you work so hard that no one can take it away from you!

Laf has literally had every opportunity he’s been given taken away from him because he has not produced— and the same would have been true for Fox but he produced!

The side that says “he should be given a chance” ignore every chance he’s been given and beyond screwed up. He’s not and has never been good enough to take advantage of the opportunities! It’s that simple.

Now he might get to a point where he can take advantage of an opportunity but he’s never once shown he can up to this point in his career.

 

[IDvsEGO]

How about we try to win games instead of trying to waste time further developing a lost cause?

How about we win games by improving the pieces we have. You know the ones who are cost effective for the moment?
Oh and also by improving them, we then dont go into a free fall the second panarin and mika fall off a cliff.

 

[gravey9]

No- you are literally re-writing history. You said he was not “gifted” the opportunity. Ok- sure, but he EARNED that opportunity once one presented itself. Sorry to tell you but that’s how life works. You don’t just get opportunities, you take advantage of them once they have been given to you. Then you work so hard that no one can take it away from you!

Laf has literally had every opportunity he’s been given taken away from him because he has not produced— and the same would have been true for Fox but he produced!

The side that says “he should be given a chance” ignore every chance he’s been given and beyond screwed up. He’s not and has never been good enough to take advantage of the opportunities! It’s that simple.

Now he might get to a point where he can take advantage of an opportunity but he’s never once shown he can up to this point in his career.

Look, two things can be true.

1 - NHL players have to earn their ice time if they're on a team that's expected to contend and has lots of vet talent.

2 - Young players of any age, including 18, 19 20 and 21 year olds develop best when given a lot of reps. I see it all the time in youth sports. The kids that get more reps in practice, in games, in scrimmages, they excel much faster. They adapt quicker to higher and higher levels of play. Kids who sub in and get less playing time suffer from confidence issues and lack of skill development. Should Kakko and Laf and Fil earn their ice? Yes and no. If the team wants to prioritize their development over winning, then you give them more ice. You find them PP time. You let them acclimate even when they absolutely suck, even if for long stretches. My son plays youth soccer. Every time his team goes up a flight to a higher competition, they get absolutely destroyed for a 2 months, then they start figuring it out. They get markedly better from failing over and over with the right instruction. You draft kids and put them straight into the NHL as opposed to letting them develop elsewhere you have a responsibility to develop them by giving them lots of opportunity - even when they don't earn it. Otherwise, keep them at lower levels. Or, as the Rangers have done (incorrectly) give those kids less meaningful ice time, have them suffer longer with confidence issues and hope that their slow development doesn't destroy their confidence as they slowly develop for 3-4-5 years. 12-15 minutes of ice time a night and pulled off for PP and high leverage spots -- it is what it is, but expect development to go very slow. Adam Fox, Derek Stepan, K'Andre Miller, Igor Shesterkin all had greater impacts as rookies because they each spent 2 or 3 or 4 years playing at lower levels after their draft year. They got the reps they needed during criticial development years. It's no comparison.

 

[JHS]

Look, two things can be true.

1 - NHL players have to earn their ice time if they're on a team that's expected to contend and has lots of vet talent.

2 - Young players of any age, including 18, 19 20 and 21 year olds develop best when given a lot of reps. I see it all the time in youth sports. The kids that get more reps in practice, in games, in scrimmages, they excel much faster. They adapt quicker to higher and higher levels of play. Kids who sub in and get less playing time suffer from confidence issues and lack of skill development. Should Kakko and Laf and Fil earn their ice? Yes and no. If the team wants to prioritize their development over winning, then you give them more ice. You find them PP time. You let them acclimate even when they absolutely suck, even if for long stretches. My son plays youth soccer. Every time his team goes up a flight to a higher competition, they get absolutely destroyed for a 2 months, then they start figuring it out. They get markedly better from failing over and over with the right instruction. You draft kids and put them straight into the NHL as opposed to letting them develop elsewhere you have a responsibility to develop them by giving them lots of opportunity - even when they don't earn it. Otherwise, keep them at lower levels. Or, as the Rangers have done (incorrectly) give those kids less meaningful ice time, have them suffer longer with confidence issues and hope that their slow development doesn't destroy their confidence as they slowly develop for 3-4-5 years. 12-15 minutes of ice time a night and pulled off for PP and high leverage spots -- it is what it is, but expect development to go very slow. Adam Fox, Derek Stepan, K'Andre Miller, Igor Shesterkin all had greater impacts as rookies because they each spent 2 or 3 or 4 years playing at lower levels after their draft year. They got the reps they needed during criticial development years. It's no comparison.

Ice time in the NHL is earned. Not given. It’s that simple. Your comparison to youth players developing to a grown man who has already been through those younger years is completely shifting the conversation. Every time I say he’s blown his opportunities no one can counter that point with anything other than tangental connected reach arguments. Gallant gave him time in the top 6 when injuries happened. He blew that chance. He was given PP time when Kreider went down—he blew that chance. That’s just the truth.

If he was better coaches—any coach—would be using him more and he would be rewarded with more minutes!

 

[Beniersgeron]

how about we all raise the expectation bar a bit higher for both of these guys? how about performing at a higher expected level of play rather than act as placeholders until the trade deadline for guys we can't afford to resign? then those placeholders wind up back on the kiddie line? no more trying to cracking the 40 pt barrier. the coddling/training wheels shit has got to stop.

Yeah screw low expectation with 60+ points, I say A-Laf do a Lafleur 4th year in the league and just get that 110-120 points all by himself... lets have faith.

 

[bhamill]

Ice time in the NHL is earned. Not given. It’s that simple. Your comparison to youth players developing to a grown man who has already been through those younger years is completely shifting the conversation. Every time I say he’s blown his opportunities no one can counter that point with anything other than tangental connected reach arguments. Gallant gave him time in the top 6 when injuries happened. He blew that chance. He was given PP time when Kreider went down—he blew that chance. That’s just the truth.

If he was better coaches—any coach—would be using him more and he would be rewarded with more minutes!

Ice time is not ONLY earned, it IS often given to young high draft picks. Jack Hughes was worse than Laf in their D+1 seasons. Jack was given more ATOI, PP1 time, and First line minutes in THAT year, where he was awful, than Laf or Kakko have gotten in ANY year. Are you really going to argue that Hughes EARNED it? That's ridiculous. BUT NJ was in a position where living with the growing pains was worth the investment in his development. NYR were/are trying to win, it's understandable that we didn't gift Laf and Kakko minutes and responsibility. However that's different than saying the minutes and PP time would NOT have aided their development. That's just the reality of it.

 

[JHS]

Ice time is not ONLY earned, it IS often given to young high draft picks. Jack Hughes was worse than Laf in their D+1 seasons. Jack was given more ATOI, PP1 time, and First line minutes in THAT year, where he was awful, than Laf or Kakko have gotten in ANY year. Are you really going to argue that Hughes EARNED it? That's ridiculous. BUT NJ was in a position where living with the growing pains was worth the investment in his development. NYR were/are trying to win, it's understandable that we didn't gift Laf and Kakko minutes and responsibility. However that's different than saying the minutes and PP time would NOT have aided their development. That's just the reality of it.

Jack Hughes got that ice time because no one else on the roster earned that ice time. Maybe Jack was working incredibly hard each practice and the coaches felt he should have the chance. He earned his assistant captains status somehow. Laf can't even earn that on a team that practically has so many assistant captains that " Bob sitting in row 2 section 311" is going to be wearing an A on his home bought jersey this season.

You also directly contradict yourself. You said " It's understandable that we didn't gift( I had nothing to do with the decision by the way) Laf and Kappo minutes"-- but the entire foundation of your argument is that if they would have gotten powerplay time their production would have gone up. So what was Gallant to do- ask the front office to trade his top 6 or maybe 8 forwards away so he could have given Laf powerplay time her earned? It would seem to me that the only other option he had was to " gift" them the time-- but you just said it was understandable why he did not.

Glad you've FINALLY seen my point!

 

[Peltz]

Jack Hughes got that ice time because no one else on the roster earned that ice time. Maybe Jack was working incredibly hard each practice and the coaches felt he should have the chance. He earned his assistant captains status somehow. Laf can't even earn that on a team that practically has so many assistant captains that " Bob sitting in row 2 section 311" is going to be wearing an A on his home bought jersey this season.

You also directly contradict yourself. You said " It's understandable that we didn't gift( I had nothing to do with the decision by the way) Laf and Kappo minutes"-- but the entire foundation of your argument is that if they would have gotten powerplay time their production would have gone up. So what was Gallant to do- ask the front office to trade his top 6 or maybe 8 forwards away so he could have given Laf powerplay time her earned? It would seem to me that the only other option he had was to " gift" them the time-- but you just said it was understandable why he did not.

Glad you've FINALLY seen my point!

The club has been in a weird place of trying to fly a plane to its final destination, all while it's in the process of building it. Ever since they signed Panarin, it's felt like they want the best of both worlds by being competitive while developing their best young players.

I'm hopeful that this is the year that they have vets that still perform well while the kids enter their prime. But I think we all know they never would have both signed Panarin and extended Kreider if they knew they were going to win the Lafreniere lottery. Maybe they would've done one of those two... but not both.

And so that's, in part, why Laf is where he is. Of course Laf could make more of his opportunities. He deserves plenty of criticism. But I don't think he's been given the same leeway as other picks like him.

Both the player and the club are responsible for his lack of "breaking through" so far.

 

[bhamill]

Jack Hughes got that ice time because no one else on the roster earned that ice time. Maybe Jack was working incredibly hard each practice and the coaches felt he should have the chance. He earned his assistant captains status somehow. Laf can't even earn that on a team that practically has so many assistant captains that " Bob sitting in row 2 section 311" is going to be wearing an A on his home bought jersey this season.

You also directly contradict yourself. You said " It's understandable that we didn't gift( I had nothing to do with the decision by the way) Laf and Kappo minutes"-- but the entire foundation of your argument is that if they would have gotten powerplay time their production would have gone up. So what was Gallant to do- ask the front office to trade his top 6 or maybe 8 forwards away so he could have given Laf powerplay time her earned? It would seem to me that the only other option he had was to " gift" them the time-- but you just said it was understandable why he did not.

Glad you've FINALLY seen my point!

Jack Hughes was awful and did not earn that ice time... he was gifted it. He was basically tied for 7th among Devils forwards in p/60 while being awful in every other way and was number one among forwards in ATOI with 19.03.
I didn't contradict myself at all. I said I understood why the NYR allotted time and responsibility the way they did... because we were/are trying to win. That doesn't contradict the fact that gifting Kakko and Laf more responsibility would have aided in their development. How does it contradict? In fact I've said we couldn't have our cake and eat it too. We had to pick one or the other. We picked focusing on winning over focusing on development, and I fully understand that. But I also understand that because we chose other than development, it would be smart to be a bit more patient. It's not a hard concept.
And I've never said they earned it... so I guess I've ALWAYS seen that part of your narrative?