Player Discussion Alexis Lafreniere

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bhamill

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Apr 16, 2012
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I can't counter your point anymore because you've walked your point so far back I don't think there is anything left. Again no worries- we don't have any chance of making each other adjust so it's a pure waste of time.
I've been saying the same things from the beginning. Maybe you were countering things you THOUGHT I meant or that someone else has said. I know I've done that myself. But sure I'll let it be.

Laf was awful. The only thing that saved him was his finishing ability that season. Maybe to your point Jack doesn't get 19 minutes a game on a team that's competing with Kreider, Zibanejad, Panarin, but the difference was Jack flashed high end ability while making a ton of mistakes. Every opportunity given to Laf has ended in a disaster. Sure the leash was much shorter, but one flashed elite play while making mistakes, the other didn't.
Yes, Laf was also awful, I didn't mean to imply differently. Again my point was just that Jack did not earn those 19 mins a game. Not that he didn't show potential, but he was bad.
 

gravey9

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Dec 29, 2008
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The analogies are perfect but you can't seem to understand the idea that people don't progress just because they are given insane opportunities they have not earned nor how that destroys the other players on the team. At this point it's cool. You've landed on the most obvious conclusion ever that giving someone more powerplay time will increase their point totals but can't see anything past that. It's the type of cutting edge analysis this board thrives on!
you should really go and listen to any podcast that has former players talking about how they develop best. your logic is rooted in the business world. which is perfectly fine in the biz world. But it doesn't translate to player development in sports.

Is Laffy ever gonna be Connor McDavid? Or Patrick Kane? No. Definitely not. Is he a generational talent? No. And I don't think that's a question of development. I think that's just the reality of Laffy as a player at this point and I don't think that's on the Rangers. Though i still think he has a shot to be one of the best players from that draft class.

McDavid, Crosby, Kane and even Makar came to the NHL far more advanced in their skill level, IQ and skating and thus they took off right away. They are truly special talents. Bedard may end up in that category too. And in Crosby, McDavid and Kane's cases, they were just 18 and 19 year olds.

Laffy didn't show up that ready. And neither did Kakko. (or Chytil) Both required more development. And by mid-way through their first year with the NHL club, the Rangers should have known it was going to take quite a bit more time and effort to development them at the NHL level. Because at that point, we knew those two weren't ready to make a huge impact yet and they were pretty much stuck having to develop at the NHL. It's at that point the Rangers needed to figure out a plan to get these kids more minutes than they "deserved." Or force feed them linemates and positions they would likely fail in for a while. The issue is, the Rangers would try that for a few games here and there, but their patience (or the Coach's patience) has been terrible. Because of Dolan, because of the market or having a veteran core that you also owe a responsibilty to the coach was too worried about winning.

It means the issues in both Kakko and Laf's games and also Chytil's (who should have been a 2nd line center by now) have lagged. it's just the reality. I'm willing to remain patient as most players dont' start hitting their prime until around age 23 or so. and that means you can have a prime Kakko and Laf for 8 years each. And if they both turn into 80 pt power forwards that will bode well for the future.

At the moment, I'm a bit lower on Laf than I am on Kakko and Chytil because I see both Kakko and Chytil's improvements year on year. I see them getting bigger, stronger, tougher and more well rounded. I frankly have not seen the same from Laf. I think his game is missing some responsibility. Some growth in forechecking and D zone and routes to pucks. But I will say this... all 3 of these kids came to the NHL knowing how to play with the puck on their stick. All 3 were guys who dominated with the play going through them. And I will say that the hardest part of each of their developments (which is still very much so on going) has been their play without the puck in the offensive zone. In that respect, I think Laffy has done a better job than the others at creating offense without the puck. Laffy has shown an aptitude for driving the net, tipping pucks, getting to the backdoor. And if he could just work on his stamina and his skating and D zone awareness he'll be more trusted to stay on a line with Panarin or Zib. And it would help a lot. And to a large extent that's on him.

That said, i'm hoping and praying that the new staff can implement a system that hides weaknesses and mistakes as a team and as individuals so that the younger guys don't have to worry about being benched or moved around the lineup with every mistake. The leash was too short with Gallant. Especially with Kakko. And Chytil. But it hurt Laffy the most becasue frankly he needed the most work defensively. Chytil, last season, did a better job of being in the right general area defensively but he wouldn't necessarily engage enough. He wouldn't body someone off the puck. Break up a seam pass. That kind of thing. And as a center he just needs to have a bigger impact in his own zone breaking up plays and turning pucks around.

In any case, there's absolutely cause for concern about what Laffy is or will be. I don't even care where he was picked at this point. I just want him to turn into a 1st line player. Someone who makes a team notice him every time he steps on the ice. He's absolutely not that (not in a good way at least). But I also think the roles these kids have been put in have been a detriment at times. This idea that putting them together as a 3rd line is a good way to develop them offensively is nuts. It's not the roles they should be developing in. Not an ideal way to develop super high end talent. And frankly, it's poor team construction to have a 3rd line centered by Fil Chytil and Laffy on the wing because it means you're not using your 3rd line to shut down other team's top lines. Which means, your top 6 not only gets all the PP and high leverage offensive minutes but also all the important D assignments. That's not really great for winning. And it's also not great for development of young high end talent who not only need reps, but they need reps in situations that aren't just sheltered.
 
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JHS

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Oct 11, 2013
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you should really go and listen to any podcast that has former players talking about how they develop best. your logic is rooted in the business world. which is perfectly fine in the biz world. But it doesn't translate to player development in sports.
I'm positive that coaches want their players to develop. 2 NHL coaches( as bad as Quinn was he still coaches in the NHL) decided he was not ready or skilled enough for those chances. I ask again- was their some sort of concerted effort to stifle Laf's development? Or more likely, was Laf just not good enough to push anyone out of their role?

This ambiguous term of "player development" also emphasizes that "he should have developed by now." I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying that players need to develop their own skills so they are ready for the opportunity. If he's too slow to penalty kill allowing him to penalty kill is only setting him up to fail. If he does not have the hands to be on the powerplay, putting him on the powerplay will only set him up to fail. It's honestly that simple-- and that exactly why multiple coaching regimes have relegated him to bottom 6 minutes with almost no specialty time minutes.
 

JHS

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Oct 11, 2013
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Do you guys ever get tired of arguing the same points on Lafreniere? Let's just see how it plays out during the season and we can give out awards based on who was right.
I do- it’s why I take very long breaks from this site and mostly come here when I’m really bored at work! It’s a long NHL offseason so got to get my hockey fix in every now and then.
 

Larrybiv

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May 14, 2013
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Laf and Kakko combined went a whopping 35 games last season without registering a shot. How about we work on that first since our kids literally need to take baby steps every year.
THAT is astounding, and not in a good way. Not scoring, nor getting points is one thing, but last I checked ........(double checking notes) if you don't shoot, normally you do not score. Might get an assist or 2 here and there, but they need to start thinking shoot first and asking questions later
 

Beniersgeron

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Mar 22, 2002
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Look at all these no faith fans in A-Laf

SfIxThsm.jpg
 

cwede

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well this is weird at EliteProspects
(also they don't list ZJones either with NYR OR HWP, even though they do have his extension at his page)

1693946310552.png
 
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will1066

If you score four, you better f'n win the game
Oct 12, 2008
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When Faith No Laf scores his first goal of the year, 4 minutes into the first game of the year, is making the gesture like he is wearing a championship belt advisable as a celly? Asking for a friend.
 

Larrybiv

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May 14, 2013
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Feels like we’ve been debating in circles the same thing for four years. Both sides are right and the reality is somewhere in the middle.
I think you have summarized it best. I've read and read, back and forth, back and forth.
Nobody is wrong here, and yet NOBODY is 100% right. Time will tell which way this goes. He's only 21. What we all can agree upon is that "this situation" is pretty unique. If the Rangers were a crappy team like the Devils were previously, then I'm pretty sure Laf would have gotten the minutes, regardless if he earned them or not. Nothing to lose, right? Although I am not a big fan of that.
But here we all are, feeling frustrated because Laf hasn't sniffed the glorified air that Hughes is sniffing. When all is said and done, I think Laf will be a better 200 ft. player, but that's not what makes the headlines......we all want more. Personally, I think he's done pretty well offensively given no PP time.
 
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HockeyBasedNYC

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Aug 2, 2005
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Here

Alexis Lafrenière, LW, New York Rangers

Drafted: No. 1 in 2020

2022-23 stats (NHL): 81 GP, 16G-23A-39P


For as much as Lafrenière has been labeled a bust by fans outside of New York, the lack of prime opportunities he’s received with the Rangers is as instrumental to the underwhelming start of his NHL career as his disappointing individual play. Stuck behind Chris Kreider and Artemi Panarin on the left wing, Lafrenière hasn’t been given a consistent, extended top-six opportunity.

On top of that, New York’s first unit power play is so lethal that Lafrenière has barely sniffed the man advantage. So yes, Lafrenière hasn’t accomplished enough yet, but it’s virtually impossible to rack up big point totals when you’re playing on the third line, with barely any power-play time. When you account for that context, you realize that he’s shown some promise, even if it’s not at the level you’d hope from a No. 1 pick. Since entering the league as a rookie, Lafrenière is tied with Panarin, Alex Killorn, Bo Horvat and Phillip Danault in terms of five-on-five goals, and he’s scored more than Andrei Svechnikov, Tyler Toffoli, Mika Zibanejad and Rickard Rakell.

5v5 goals since 2020-21
RANK
PLAYER
5V5 GOALS
GAMES PLAYED
5V5 MINUTES
60Alexis Lafrenière412162745
61Alex Killorn412202757
62Phillip Danault412142862
63Bo Horvat412052949
64Artemi Panarin411992972
65Jonathan Huberdeau402142749
66Alex Tuch401792398
67Vladimir Tarasenko401682248
68Andrei Svechnikov401972666
69Patrice Bergeron402052427
70Tyler Toffoli402082571
That’s not bad at all for a player’s age 19 to age 21 seasons.


Of course, this isn’t to absolve Lafrenière of all responsibility. His foot speed is lacking, the impressive hockey sense he displayed as a prospect hasn’t translated and there are too many games where you don’t notice him. He’s also coming off a pointless first-round playoff series against the Devils. But overall, he hasn’t been put in a position to succeed. Peter Laviolette’s arrival as head coach should unlock new opportunities, including perhaps finally shifting Lafrenière to the right wing on a more regular basis, where it’d be possible to win a top-six role. It’s highly unlikely Lafrenière will turn into the star he was drafted to become, but at 21, he’s still got a strong chance of developing into a capable top-six forward.
 

Ruggs225

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Oct 15, 2007
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I think you have summarized it best. I've read and read, back and forth, back and forth.
Nobody is wrong here, and yet NOBODY is 100% right. Time will tell which way this goes. He's only 21. What we all can agree upon is that "this situation" is pretty unique. If the Rangers were a crappy team like the Devils were previously, then I'm pretty sure Laf would have gotten the minutes, regardless if he earned them or not. Nothing to lose, right? Although I am not a big fan of that.
But here we all are, feeling frustrated because Laf hasn't sniffed the glorified air that Hughes is sniffing. When all is said and done, I think Laf will be a better 200 ft. player, but that's not what makes the headlines......we all want more. Personally, I think he's done pretty well offensively given no PP time.

This whole team structure is unique. We have kids under 25, vets 30+ and only 3 players 25-29. Fox and lindgren who are 25 and Trouba who is 29.

We have nobody in their “prime” years of 26-28.

Its really odd.
 
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