Player Discussion Alexis Lafreniere

[haohmaru]

Lafreniere had Kreider and Panarin ahead of him. It's really that simple.

 

[mas0764]

Whether or not this guy ever lives up to the hype of his status as a #1 overall - and an "above average" #1 overall at that, I'd say - I still expect substantial development. He's just 21 and like it or not he was not shoehorned into an offensive role where he was leaned on for minutes.

He's very likely to get better just as he continues to be utilized and depended on more for offensive roles.

He's a 40 point player at 21 with no PP production (whether that's his fault or his usage, we will leave alone).

I will be shocked if he doesn't improve that output by at least 10-15 points at EV with regularity by time he's 23, 24, 25.

If he becomes any kind of PP contributor at all he's probably a 60+ point player. And that is still basically rock bottom expectation.

 

[Levitate]

To me the thing with Laf is at times he displayed confidence and skills and vision and he made things happen out on the ice. He looked like a high end pick and talented player. Then he'd lose the thread and look lost on the ice.

IMO a big job of the new coaching staff will be to figure out how to get the "good" Laf on a consistent basis. Whether it's finding the right role on the team for him, or helping him get his head straight, whatever it takes. He has shown he has "it" at times but we need it all the time

 

[bhamill]

Whether or not this guy ever lives up to the hype of his status as a #1 overall - and an "above average" #1 overall at that, I'd say - I still expect substantial development. He's just 21 and like it or not he was not shoehorned into an offensive role where he was leaned on for minutes.

He's very likely to get better just as he continues to be utilized and depended on more for offensive roles.

He's a 40 point player at 21 with no PP production (whether that's his fault or his usage, we will leave alone).

I will be shocked if he doesn't improve that output by at least 10-15 points at EV with regularity by time he's 23, 24, 25.

If he becomes any kind of PP contributor at all he's probably a 60+ point player. And that is still basically rock bottom expectation.

I still expect that he will end up at least the second best all around forward to come out of that draft, which isn't IDEAL, but wont be the apocalypse either.

 

[JHS]

Jack Hughes was awful and did not earn that ice time... he was gifted it. He was basically tied for 7th among Devils forwards in p/60 while being awful in every other way and was number one among forwards in ATOI with 19.03.
I didn't contradict myself at all. I said I understood why the NYR allotted time and responsibility the way they did... because we were/are trying to win. That doesn't contradict the fact that gifting Kakko and Laf more responsibility would have aided in their development. How does it contradict? In fact I've said we couldn't have our cake and eat it too. We had to pick one or the other. We picked focusing on winning over focusing on development, and I fully understand that. But I also understand that because we chose other than development, it would be smart to be a bit more patient. It's not a hard concept.
And I've never said they earned it... so I guess I've ALWAYS seen that part of your narrative?

I don't really want to get into it with you again. There is a reason why in literally every walk of life, when you first start at a job you are not given CEO level responsibility. You seem to think that giving a first year person the same opportunities as a CEO will just allow them to develop all the skills it takes to be a CEO. It's so unreal it's like arguing that the sky is in fact blue, when you just keep saying it's grey.

One last time-- maybe this will help. When I earned my private pilots license I could not immediately fly a 737 filled with passengers. Sure I'm technically a pilot but I don't have the skills to fly a jet. I need to learn more. Now if I were just given the chance to fly a jet, I might be able to do the basics well but I'd really be overwhelmed. Perhaps, maybe it makes sense then, why when you start off with something you take on increased levels of responsibility and have to show competency at each step before you advance to the next level. In your ideal world, Laf should have been allowed to fly a 747 across the Atlantic with 250 people on it during his second day of flight school because if he was just given that chance he sure would have been successful.. How he'd be successful, what would make him successful, skills needed to be successful-- forget about all that-- just trust he'd be able to do it. It's honestly pure insanity which is why this discussion is literally one I only revist very infrequently.

 

[mas0764]

I don't really want to get into it with you again. There is a reason why in literally every walk of life, when you first start at a job you are not given CEO level responsibility. You seem to think that giving a first year person the same opportunities as a CEO will just allow them to develop all the skills it takes to be a CEO. It's so unreal it's like arguing that the sky is in fact blue, when you just keep saying it's grey.

Sports are not the same as anything else on earth.

Saying a rookie needs minutes to develop is not the same as saying give a kid fresh out of college a job as CEO.

It's just not.

It's dishonest to imply they are even remotely similar, really.

It's beyond factual that many athletes have developed by being thrown into the fire as many have suggested we do with Lafreniere.

There may be a reason not to do it with Lafreniere or a reason doing it with him won't work, but your post here is not one of those reasons.

It's honestly pure insanity which is why this discussion is literally one I only revist very infrequently.

You don't really post much that's not shitting on Lafreniere, so.... I dunno about that last line.

 

[Levitate]

Hughes didn't earn those minutes but his raw talent was undeniable and the only real questions were whether he could take the abuse. The Devils had the "luxury" of letting him make mistakes and fail at things in order to get better.

Laf came on to the team at a time when it had some top players at his position and was trying to transition to being a playoff team and his coach played him like a support player and expect a support players responsibility out of him.

Could he have done better and forced the coaches hand? Sure, perhaps. Is he as talented as Hughes? No, not at all (and therefore why are we expecting that he busted out on the team in a way Hughes didn't until he had more experience with bigtime minutes...). But Laf and Kakko's roles on this team thus far have been as support players which hasn't helped them reach their potential.
I think it's more egregious in Kakko's case sense he has played well with the Rangers other top players but Gallant just decided he doesn't trust him and won't let him develop there.

 

[will1066]

Just post 1 pic lifting a dumbbell marked "10" on it, but not "lb" like with Kravtsov but "kg".

Just one pic.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

kravtsov lifted 10 all right - more like 10 oz or mg.

 

[bhamill]

I don't really want to get into it with you again. There is a reason why in literally every walk of life, when you first start at a job you are not given CEO level responsibility. You seem to think that giving a first year person the same opportunities as a CEO will just allow them to develop all the skills it takes to be a CEO. It's so unreal it's like arguing that the sky is in fact blue, when you just keep saying it's grey.

One last time-- maybe this will help. When I earned my private pilots license I could not immediately fly a 737 filled with passengers. Sure I'm technically a pilot but I don't have the skills to fly a jet. I need to learn more. Now if I were just given the chance to fly a jet, I might be able to do the basics well but I'd really be overwhelmed. Perhaps, maybe it makes sense then, why when you start off with something you take on increased levels of responsibility and have to show competency at each step before you advance to the next level. In your ideal world, Laf should have been allowed to fly a 747 across the Atlantic with 250 people on it during his second day of flight school because if he was just given that chance he sure would have been successful.. How he'd be successful, what would make him successful, skills needed to be successful-- forget about all that-- just trust he'd be able to do it. It's honestly pure insanity which is why this discussion is literally one I only revist very infrequently.

First, you’re arguing against something I never said. AGAIN I never said Laf SHOULD have been gifted responsibility and ice, not with this team trying to win. AGAIN I said that since he wasn’t given that treatment though we should probably be more patient. These are terrible analogies. Almost EVERY high draft pick gets a ton of ice and responsibility because almost every one of them is picked by a bottom feeder team that knows they won’t be winning anyway. These kids haven’t earned it, they are being GIVEN it as an investment. In hopes that it speeds up development. If Laf or Hughes f***s up, no one dies. And the company doesn’t bankrupt, if you want to go with that awful CEO analogy.
I’m not sure at this point if you just can’t grasp the concept or you’re being purposefully obtuse just for the hell of it. Hahahaha. It’s not a hard concept. You either invest in development and live with the growing pains like the Devils and most teams do with high picks, or you don’t and you wait longer for the player to break out. Pretty simple. And I’m not guaranteeing he breaks out, I’m just saying I’m not surprised he hasn’t yet since we didn’t invest in his development.

 

[TheGortonConspiracy]

I love how controversial this thread has gotten lmao

 

[bhamill]

Hughes didn't earn those minutes but his raw talent was undeniable and the only real questions were whether he could take the abuse. The Devils had the "luxury" of letting him make mistakes and fail at things in order to get better.

Laf came on to the team at a time when it had some top players at his position and was trying to transition to being a playoff team and his coach played him like a support player and expect a support players responsibility out of him.

Could he have done better and forced the coaches hand? Sure, perhaps. Is he as talented as Hughes? No, not at all (and therefore why are we expecting that he busted out on the team in a way Hughes didn't until he had more experience with bigtime minutes...). But Laf and Kakko's roles on this team thus far have been as support players which hasn't helped them reach their potential.
I think it's more egregious in Kakko's case sense he has played well with the Rangers other top players but Gallant just decided he doesn't trust him and won't let him develop there.

Yup. And to be clear I never meant to imply Laf would be as good as Hughes if he had gotten the same treatment, just closer to HIS OWN potential.

 

[JHS]

First, you’re arguing against something I never said. AGAIN I never said Laf SHOULD have been gifted responsibility and ice, not with this team trying to win. AGAIN I said that since he wasn’t given that treatment though we should probably be more patient. These are terrible analogies. Almost EVERY high draft pick gets a ton of ice and responsibility because almost every one of them is picked by a bottom feeder team that knows they won’t be winning anyway. These kids haven’t earned it, they are being GIVEN it as an investment. In hopes that it speeds up development. If Laf or Hughes f***s up, no one dies. And the company doesn’t bankrupt, if you want to go with that awful CEO analogy.
I’m not sure at this point if you just can’t grasp the concept or you’re being purposefully obtuse just for the hell of it. Hahahaha. It’s not a hard concept. You either invest in development and live with the growing pains like the Devils and most teams do with high picks, or you don’t and you wait longer for the player to break out. Pretty simple. And I’m not guaranteeing he breaks out, I’m just saying I’m not surprised he hasn’t yet since we didn’t invest in his development.

The analogies are perfect but you can't seem to understand the idea that people don't progress just because they are given insane opportunities they have not earned nor how that destroys the other players on the team. At this point it's cool. You've landed on the most obvious conclusion ever that giving someone more powerplay time will increase their point totals but can't see anything past that. It's the type of cutting edge analysis this board thrives on!

 

[IDvsEGO]

The analogies are perfect but you can't seem to understand the idea that people don't progress just because they are given insane opportunities they have not earned nor how that destroys the other players on the team. At this point it's cool. You've landed on the most obvious conclusion ever that giving someone more powerplay time will increase their point totals but can't see anything past that. It's the type of cutting edge analysis this board thrives on!

It’s not about meaninglessly increasing his point totals.
That’s the most shallow analysis ever.

If Laf gains 30 points and Panarin drops 30 points it’s a net of 0.

The point is to try and push Laf to show the skill level that made him 1oa in a strong draft class.

 

[SRHRangers]

It is very difficult for LaF to get on the ice on the PP when the guys ahead of him on the depth chart is a 95 point star, and a guy avg 40+ goals the last 2 seasons. And LaF has not stood out to make it an argument.

The LaF argument is very different than the Kakko one. Kakko got flat out screwed. Kakko was actually producing on the PP his rookie season and he just lost the ice time.

The better question is, why was a strict LW drafted by us if we have 19 mil aav in NMC deals locked in at LW for 5 years.

The pick should've been traded since we went from a rebuild, to a reload due to signing Panarin and Trouba and resigning Krieder.

 

[JHS]

It’s not about meaninglessly increasing his point totals.
That’s the most shallow analysis ever.

If Laf gains 30 points and Panarin drops 30 points it’s a net of 0.

The point is to try and push Laf to show the skill level that made him 1oa in a strong draft class.

Yes agreed its a shallow analysis. But it's where so many people land.on this topic here Like how do you ""push" him.???He's a grown man who I'm certain has been told exactly what he needs to do to improve. Ice time is not the only way a player can improve, playing with better players is not the only way-- skills and development there of are the key, putting in time in the off season, key, developing consistently impactful shifts- key. I mean this is exactly the point few people on here seem to grasp.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Yes agreed its a shallow analysis. But it's where so many people land.on this topic here Like how do you ""push" him.???He's a grown man who I'm certain has been told exactly what he needs to do to improve. Ice time is not the only way a player can improve, playing with better players is not the only way-- skills and development there of are the key, putting in time in the off season, key, developing consistently impactful shifts- key. I mean this is exactly the point few people on here seem to grasp.

Sure but this chicken and the egg thing goes round and round, no one can give examples of a player who’s somehow breaks out and drops 50 points at ES before given pp time.
Every star player we’ve seen gets power play time first, then develops at ES.

 

[TGWL]

Ice time is not ONLY earned, it IS often given to young high draft picks. Jack Hughes was worse than Laf in their D+1 seasons. Jack was given more ATOI, PP1 time, and First line minutes in THAT year, where he was awful, than Laf or Kakko have gotten in ANY year. Are you really going to argue that Hughes EARNED it? That's ridiculous. BUT NJ was in a position where living with the growing pains was worth the investment in his development. NYR were/are trying to win, it's understandable that we didn't gift Laf and Kakko minutes and responsibility. However that's different than saying the minutes and PP time would NOT have aided their development. That's just the reality of it.

Jack wasn't very good because he forced plays and was often left knocked on the ice. But the vision, the skating and the play making was all there from the very first season. Jack adapted to the space, timing and got stronger in the offseason. Jack then put in the work on his shooting. You can say he was given a lot more lead-way and opportunity being on a team not expected to go anywhere, but he still flashed a lot more skill and talent in that season despite it being bad. Lafreniere was given some opportunity to take the top 6 role early on, but he couldn't adapt to the right side/prefers the left side where there's a jam.

 

[bhamill]

The analogies are perfect but you can't seem to understand the idea that people don't progress just because they are given insane opportunities they have not earned nor how that destroys the other players on the team. At this point it's cool. You've landed on the most obvious conclusion ever that giving someone more powerplay time will increase their point totals but can't see anything past that. It's the type of cutting edge analysis this board thrives on!

The analogies are absolute trash and I never once mentioned raising anyone's point totals. Congrats on continuing to argue against things I didn't say. Hahaha.
I'll make it very simple and then back away because continuing this would be a waste of both of our times.
1. Giving high picks responsibility and minutes (that they have NOT earned) to speed their development is modus operandi for bottom tier teams. So the vast majority of high picks receive that treatment.
2. There will be inevitable mistakes and growing pains (though nothing akin to a plane crash or bankruptcy, hahahaha), but it is a wise investment for a team that is going nowhere anyway.
3. NYR were not a bottom tier team so they chose NOT to take the normal tact with both Kakko and Laf. Winning was a higher priority. And that is understandable.
4. Because they were not GIVEN the same development opportunity/responsibility/ATOI that other high picks recieve, they can not be expected to develop in the same way at the same rate. So it would be prudent to be a bit more patient.
I can't make it any more simple than that.
Have a great day buddy! (no sarcasm)

 

[bhamill]

Jack wasn't very good because he forced plays and was often left knocked on the ice. But the vision, the skating and the play making was all there from the very first season. Jack adapted to the space, timing and got stronger in the offseason. Jack then put in the work on his shooting. You can say he was given a lot more lead-way and opportunity being on a team not expected to go anywhere, but he still flashed a lot more skill and talent in that season despite it being bad. Lafreniere was given some opportunity to take the top 6 role early on, but he couldn't adapt to the right side/prefers the left side where there's a jam.

Jack was awful. The reasons don't really matter. The way he played he would have not gotten the same opportunities on the NYR as he got on the Devils. 19+mins of ice time a game? No f***ing way. Hahaha.
This is not a knock on Hughes. He's great. He's worked hard. He's just about a superstar already and he should become one.
My point was simply that high picks do indeed normally get opportunities that they have not earned. Hughes did not earn what he was given in his D+1.

 

[JHS]

The analogies are absolute trash and I never once mentioned raising anyone's point totals. Congrats on continuing to argue against things I didn't say. Hahaha.
I'll make it very simple and then back away because continuing this would be a waste of both of our times.
1. Giving high picks responsibility and minutes (that they have NOT earned) to speed their development is modus operandi for bottom tier teams. So the vast majority of high picks receive that treatment.
2. There will be inevitable mistakes and growing pains (though nothing akin to a plane crash or bankruptcy, hahahaha), but it is a wise investment for a team that is going nowhere anyway.
3. NYR were not a bottom tier team so they chose NOT to take the normal tact with both Kakko and Laf. Winning was a higher priority. And that is understandable.
4. Because they were not GIVEN the same development opportunity/responsibility/ATOI that other high picks recieve, they can not be expected to develop in the same way at the same rate. So it would be prudent to be a bit more patient.
I can't make it any more simple than that.
Have a great day buddy! (no sarcasm)

For nearly every first round pick they have skills to earn them the ice time and they make leaps. You point out Hughes and then say he " stunk." He stunk for multiple seasons getting those chances and the most commonly reported way he improved himself was by busting his butt off to strengthen his skill set. So your argument falls apart completely because the ice time alone did not make him improve- he did something to make himself better. So again if Hughes did nothing to improve himself the "opportunity" he was given would not have alone made any difference.

There it is- in a nut shell you can't see how opportunities alone don't make a player improve. It's cool to move on now. We've taken up too much space arguing about nonsense really.

 

[bhamill]

For nearly every first round pick they have skills to earn them the ice time and they make leaps. You point out Hughes and then say he " stunk." He stunk for multiple seasons getting those chances and the most commonly reported way he improved himself was by busting his butt off to strengthen his skill set. So your argument falls apart completely because the ice time alone did not make him improve- he did something to make himself better. So again if Hughes did nothing to improve himself the "opportunity" he was given would not have alone made any difference.

There it is- in a nut shell you can't see how opportunities alone don't make a player improve. It's cool to move on now. We've taken up too much space arguing about nonsense really.

All good. You didn't actually counter anything I said my last post, but again something I DIDN'T say, as I never said opportunity ALONE makes any player improve, opportunity is merely OPPORTUNITY, I'm not sure how that is mysterious. So I guess you are just still misunderstanding my point, regardless of how simple I tried to make it.
Have a good one!

 

[mas0764]

The analogies are perfect but you can't seem to understand the idea that people don't progress just because they are given insane opportunities they have not earned

Some people do, though, especially in sports.

For example, in the NFL, you have three first round rookie QBs starting from Day 1 this year.

None of them are better than journeyman veterans you could find. They are plugged in because teams are deducing that it's better for them to learn on the job than sit and develop and earn it over time.

Better to just get them going.

Sometimes that approach doesn't work, but sometimes it does.

 

[JHS]

All good. You didn't actually counter anything I said my last post, but again something I DIDN'T say, as I never said opportunity ALONE makes any player improve, opportunity is merely OPPORTUNITY, I'm not sure how that is mysterious. So I guess you are just still misunderstanding my point, regardless of how simple I tried to make it.
Have a good one!

I can't counter your point anymore because you've walked your point so far back I don't think there is anything left. Again no worries- we don't have any chance of making each other adjust so it's a pure waste of time.

 

[TGWL]

Jack was awful. The reasons don't really matter. The way he played he would have not gotten the same opportunities on the NYR as he got on the Devils. 19+mins of ice time a game? No f***ing way. Hahaha.
This is not a knock on Hughes. He's great. He's worked hard. He's just about a superstar already and he should become one.
My point was simply that high picks do indeed normally get opportunities that they have not earned. Hughes did not earn what he was given in his D+1.

Laf was awful. The only thing that saved him was his finishing ability that season. Maybe to your point Jack doesn't get 19 minutes a game on a team that's competing with Kreider, Zibanejad, Panarin, but the difference was Jack flashed high end ability while making a ton of mistakes. Every opportunity given to Laf has ended in a disaster. Sure the leash was much shorter, but one flashed elite play while making mistakes, the other didn't.