Player Discussion Alexis Lafreniere

[Greg02]

Something that scares me about Lafreniere going forward is there is one school of thought that he hasn't seen the success we expected because he wasn't afforded the opportunities of a first overall. However, if you believe that he has been given extra leeway because the organization wants him to succeed, what happens when that dries up?

 

[CLW]

Something that scares me about Lafreniere going forward is there is one school of thought that he hasn't seen the success we expected because he wasn't afforded the opportunities of a first overall. However, if you believe that he has been given extra leeway because the organization wants him to succeed, what happens when that dries up?

I hate the word "opportunity". It's such a snake word that can turn in your hand every which way.

I mean, this is a kid who was benched and demoted because he kept coughing up the puck at the offensive blue line. Instead of fixing the team game through the neutral zone, because those coaches had no idea how to do things differently, they smacked the kid down because he was an easy target. Did that help him in any way? Of course not. He didn't really learn how not to cough up the puck, and he didn't really learn any other way of playing and he never got the "opportunity" to figure it all out for himself on the ice, because those (very limited) coaches were fighting for their jobs on orders from above (make the playoffs or else).

So now what is he?

Pray that Laviolette, Muse and the other coaches can help him get a grip on things.

 

[Greg02]

I hate the word "opportunity". It's such a snake word that can turn in your hand every which way.

I mean, this is a kid who was benched and demoted because he kept coughing up the puck at the offensive blue line. Instead of fixing the team game through the neutral zone, because those coaches had no idea how to do things differently, they smacked the kid down because he was an easy target. Did that help him in any way? Of course not. He didn't really learn how not to cough up the puck, and he didn't really learn any other way of playing and he never got the "opportunity" to figure it all out for himself on the ice, because those (very limited) coaches were fighting for their jobs on orders from above (make the playoffs or else).

So now what is he?

Pray that Laviolette, Muse and the other coaches can help him get a grip on things.

You want to hold the position that Lafreniere should have gotten more minutes, or more powerplay time, or more shifts with Zibenejad, I won't argue with you.

However, I think it's pretty reasonable to worry that a coach can look at the results and say they don't want Lafreniere on either Power Play unit, or that Kreider should have more ES minutes than him. And then if that's the case, where are we?

 

[CLW]

You want to hold the position that Lafreniere should have gotten more minutes, or more powerplay time, or more shifts with Zibenejad, I won't argue with you.

However, I think it's pretty reasonable to worry that a coach can look at the results and say they don't want Lafreniere on either Power Play unit, or that Kreider should have more ES minutes than him. And then if that's the case, where are we?

The NYR with Panarin and Kreider ahead of him and with playoff ambitions was a godawful place to land for Laf. That was one bad pingpong ball bounce for him.

Laf never had the chance to be left alone to figure things out for himself, to find his own game. I think he should have been kept out of the entire loop of comparing him to the other stars or the musical chairs of who plays with whom. Like J. Hughes never had to worry about. But that's water under the bridge and it would never have happened anyway exactly for the reasons you point to.

 

[Machinehead]

I don’t even get why we’d want to move Laf. He’s a middle 6 wing, making 2.35m for this year and next. He put up 35 points at ES.
I seriously can’t understand the hate.
Is he producing at Connor mcdavid numbers? Of course not, but he’s a middle 6 nhl player on a playoff team, and adds to our actual nhl depth.
We have probably the most talented roster I’ve seen in my life. We have a good balance of skill, and grit, and Laf is a player who plays a physical game, and won’t shy away from it.
Our run in 21 he was a big part of it, aggressive, and he scored some clutch goals.
This is his d+4, let’s see what he looks like once the team has learnt the actual system (not the first 5-10 games).

We'll never see eye to eye so it's not even worth responding.

This entire post makes me want to delete my account and quit hockey.

 

[Machinehead]

"Good mix of skill and grit."

They have neither of those things.

There's three teams in the division that are way more talented. The Rangers will make the playoffs and lose to one of those teams. That's what the Rangers are. Been saying it for a calendar year now.

Hell, even the Pens. I know they're flawed but in terms of raw talent, Erik Karlsson eclipses our whole roster, nevermind the other top 100 all-time player and top 10 all-time player. That's what the f***ing *B-tier* in the Metro is sending out.

I'm not saying this to be mean, it just is what it is. You guys have to get out into the wide world more of you think this is an especially talented roster.

Adam Fox is an all-worlder, that's for sure. Beyond that, Panarin is certainly very good but declining, Zibanejad is a way more of a top 20 center than top 10, and while Kreider is one of the most effective wingers in the league, he's not exactly skilled. He's somebody that just made it happen with what he's good at which is great, but the team needs more.

Sorry, but everyone else is a guy. Outside of the four I mentioned, no other fans are losing sleep saying "I wish we had that guy." A few good players is not a contending roster.

And yeah, Shesterkin, but I don't care about goaltending and let's just have one argument at a time.

Let's talk about grit. I do think they try. I appreciated their effort in the 2021 run DESPITE GETTING WOEFULLY OUTPLAYED FOR MOST OF IT AND THAT PART IS IMPORTANT!! If you say Lafreniere hits a lot, you're right. He does. The problem is, our brand of hitting is very much running into guys when the puck is gone.

Ask the Devils. We beat the shit out them in the alley which everyone said would make them wither and they still absolutely dominated the series.

"Grit" means nothing if you're not forechecking effectively and in today's NHL, the forecheck is built on speed. We're 32nd out of 32 in team speed and you know it to be true.

So here we are with first-round-exit talent and no forecheck. We're built on boring team defense and goaltending. That's what we were most of Hank's career outside of the couple of years we got good at forechecking.

What did we rebuild for?

 

[LokiDog]

View attachment 750160

"Good mix of skill and grit."

They have neither of those things.

There's three teams in the division that are way more talented. The Rangers will make the playoffs and lose to one of those teams. That's what the Rangers are. Been saying it for a calendar year now.

Hell, even the Pens. I know they're flawed but in terms of raw talent, Erik Karlsson eclipses our whole roster, nevermind the other top 100 all-time player and top 10 all-time player. That's what the f***ing *B-tier* in the Metro is sending out.

I'm not saying this to be mean, it just is what it is. You guys have to get out into the wide world more of you think this is an especially talented roster.

Adam Fox is an all-worlder, that's for sure. Beyond that, Panarin is certainly very good but declining, Zibanejad is a way more of a top 20 center than top 10, and while Kreider is one of the most effective wingers in the league, he's not exactly skilled. He's somebody that just made it happen with what he's good at which is great, but the team needs more.

Sorry, but everyone else is a guy. Outside of the four I mentioned, no other fans are losing sleep saying "I wish we had that guy." A few good players is not a contending roster.

And yeah, Shesterkin, but I don't care about goaltending and let's just have one argument at a time.

Let's talk about grit. I do think they try. I appreciated their effort in the 2021 run DESPITE GETTING WOEFULLY OUTPLAYED FOR MOST OF IT AND THAT PART IS IMPORTANT!! If you say Lafreniere hits a lot, you're right. He does. The problem is, our brand of hitting is very much running into guys when the puck is gone.

Ask the Devils. We beat the shit out them in the alley which everyone said would make them wither and they still absolutely dominated the series.

"Grit" means nothing if you're not forechecking effectively and in today's NHL, the forecheck is built on speed. We're 32nd out of 32 in team speed and you know it to be true.

So here we are with first-round-exit talent and no forecheck. We're built on boring team defense and goaltending. That's what we were most of Hank's career outside of the couple of years we got good at forechecking.

What did we rebuild for?

Nailed it. I’d wager teams are starting to cover Miller now, but otherwise every word is on point.

 

[CLW]

View attachment 750160

"Good mix of skill and grit."

They have neither of those things.

There's three teams in the division that are way more talented. The Rangers will make the playoffs and lose to one of those teams. That's what the Rangers are. Been saying it for a calendar year now.

Hell, even the Pens. I know they're flawed but in terms of raw talent, Erik Karlsson eclipses our whole roster, nevermind the other top 100 all-time player and top 10 all-time player. That's what the f***ing *B-tier* in the Metro is sending out.

I'm not saying this to be mean, it just is what it is. You guys have to get out into the wide world more of you think this is an especially talented roster.

Adam Fox is an all-worlder, that's for sure. Beyond that, Panarin is certainly very good but declining, Zibanejad is a way more of a top 20 center than top 10, and while Kreider is one of the most effective wingers in the league, he's not exactly skilled. He's somebody that just made it happen with what he's good at which is great, but the team needs more.

Sorry, but everyone else is a guy. Outside of the four I mentioned, no other fans are losing sleep saying "I wish we had that guy." A few good players is not a contending roster.

And yeah, Shesterkin, but I don't care about goaltending and let's just have one argument at a time.

Let's talk about grit. I do think they try. I appreciated their effort in the 2021 run DESPITE GETTING WOEFULLY OUTPLAYED FOR MOST OF IT AND THAT PART IS IMPORTANT!! If you say Lafreniere hits a lot, you're right. He does. The problem is, our brand of hitting is very much running into guys when the puck is gone.

Ask the Devils. We beat the shit out them in the alley which everyone said would make them wither and they still absolutely dominated the series.

"Grit" means nothing if you're not forechecking effectively and in today's NHL, the forecheck is built on speed. We're 32nd out of 32 in team speed and you know it to be true.

So here we are with first-round-exit talent and no forecheck. We're built on boring team defense and goaltending. That's what we were most of Hank's career outside of the couple of years we got good at forechecking.

What did we rebuild for?

"What did we rebuild for?"

That's easy. To keep making the playoffs year after year.

That's all.

Next question: Why do people follow the Rangers?

Anyway, some counter points.

- Gallant was mostly interested in building up his retirement poker money pool. An actual system in all zones should help lift the team and give it a bit more spine.
- The kids are not so much kids anymore. If they can grow a size or two that should help. Khytil, Kuylle and Kaapo are looking good.
- Panarin should be better in a more protected environment. If he shoots more on the PP that should also help.
- Gus is making our D so much better. If the modern forecheck is built on speed, getting the puck up the other way swiftly is also key. That was one of our major failures under the Dino Oaf.
- We don't know what the team will really look like yet 5v5. The team played about one period of hockey in the pre-season games, the first period in the last game against the Bruins. I think this team will be much harder to break down than last season.
- If everybody plays scissors hockey, be a rock.

One obvious weakness is Quick.
Trouba cannot be a statuesque pylon this year.
Laf must pick himself up (I know).

 

[Machinehead]

Nailed it. I’d wager teams are starting to cover Miller now, but otherwise every word is on point.

I see both sides with Miller.

I think, unlike most of this roster, he has unique and intriguing talent, and could develop into something special.

Right now, top to bottom, he's a second pair D and everyone has two of those.

Overall, very positive. Another homerun later in the draft while anybody top ten sputters.

 

[bleedblue94]

I don’t even get why we’d want to move Laf. He’s a middle 6 wing, making 2.35m for this year and next. He put up 35 points at ES.
I seriously can’t understand the hate.
Is he producing at Connor mcdavid numbers? Of course not, but he’s a middle 6 nhl player on a playoff team, and adds to our actual nhl depth.
We have probably the most talented roster I’ve seen in my life. We have a good balance of skill, and grit, and Laf is a player who plays a physical game, and won’t shy away from it.
Our run in 21 he was a big part of it, aggressive, and he scored some clutch goals.
This is his d+4, let’s see what he looks like once the team has learnt the actual system (not the first 5-10 games).

You're kidding right?

This is a circus following the org. You are suggesting he has value being Blake Coleman to this team w a low cap (only low bc of rfa status) and that's a good thing? The drama of draft Blake Coleman 1st overall and the ongoing saga this is heading for is reason enough to move on if the right deal presents itself.

The local news is writing that he looks like a guy on a PTO right now.

 

[ORRFForever]

You're kidding right?

This is a circus following the org. You are suggesting he has value being Blake Coleman to this team w a low cap (only low bc of rfa status) and that's a good thing? The drama of draft Blake Coleman 1st overall and the ongoing saga this is heading for is reason enough to move on if the right deal presents itself.

The local news is writing that he looks like a guy on a PTO right now.

"PTO" ?

 

[LokiDog]

"PTO" ?

A player who went unsigned by all teams over the summer and gets invited to come to camp on a “professional tryout” to see if they can provide anything or not.

 

[ORRFForever]

A player who went unsigned by all teams over the summer and gets invited to come to camp on a “professional tryout” to see if they can provide anything or not.

Fair enough. Thanks!

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

"PTO" ?

Professional Try-Out

AKA Nonroster training camp invite

 

[Shesterkybomb]

So what do you think he gets? A high 1st?

Once you go higher than 15OA, the majority are quality NHL'ers. It falls off a cliff after 15 and it falls off the face of the universe after 30.

Lafreniere is still better than most players taken after 15, but there's no reason to give up a pick higher than 15 to take a flier on Lafreniere.

I think he stays here for this year and next. I'm hopeful management aren't as trigger happy as hf.

 

[Savant]

You're kidding right?

This is a circus following the org. You are suggesting he has value being Blake Coleman to this team w a low cap (only low bc of rfa status) and that's a good thing? The drama of draft Blake Coleman 1st overall and the ongoing saga this is heading for is reason enough to move on if the right deal presents itself.

The local news is writing that he looks like a guy on a PTO right now.

I mean it’s also incredibly disingenuous to compare Lafreniere to Coleman because he doesn’t have any of Coleman’s intangibles. Coleman at his best was one of the best energy players in the league. So are we saying best case scenario is Lafreniere without adding any energy/making team mates better/hurting other teams. That is an extremely low bar

 

[n8]

The NYR with Panarin and Kreider ahead of him and with playoff ambitions was a godawful place to land for Laf. That was one bad pingpong ball bounce for him.

Laf never had the chance to be left alone to figure things out for himself, to find his own game. I think he should have been kept out of the entire loop of comparing him to the other stars or the musical chairs of who plays with whom. Like J. Hughes never had to worry about. But that's water under the bridge and it would never have happened anyway exactly for the reasons you point to.

Perhaps the organization made a big mistake not trading his rights at the draft. I feel like we could have gotten quite the franchise altering haul if we were entertaining trades. I really doubt Ottawa was offering the #3 OA and #5 OA but that would have been an obvious great value. #3, #28, and a 2nd (#33 or 44 or #61) would have been a good haul. Unprotected #1 in 2021 and 2022 from MTL. Anyways, pointless thinking of packages. Gorton was emphatic that he was not trading the pick away. I don't know if he listened to any offers or if that was just PR - i.e. he got offers and none were good so he played to "not entertain [these terrible] offers" or shot himself in the foot by not even seeing what was available.

 

[Paulie Walnutz]

The NYR with Panarin and Kreider ahead of him and with playoff ambitions was a godawful place to land for Laf. That was one bad pingpong ball bounce for him.

Laf never had the chance to be left alone to figure things out for himself, to find his own game. I think he should have been kept out of the entire loop of comparing him to the other stars or the musical chairs of who plays with whom. Like J. Hughes never had to worry about. But that's water under the bridge and it would never have happened anyway exactly for the reasons you point to.

Yeah but if you play devil’s advocate he had it easier by being third on the left wing depth chart. No pressure, easier matchups, no spotlight by being thrown to the lion’s den right away and the possibility of him not being able to handle the top line duties. Sure 3 coaches is hard for any player but at some point you have to see improvement somewhere. He’s the same player he was since his rookie year.

 

[JHS]

It's always us that it happens to. I get that once you get past the first round its hit or miss but every player that we have hopes for either busts out or takes forever to develop into 80% of what they should have been. Lias was NHL ready according to everyone in the know, had just had a great world junior minus the medal toss, Kravtsov was playing with men in Russia, had all the skill in the world, those picks turned out bad, i think the organization had a huge part in that, i dont think either guy forgot how to play hockey, i think in key development years the organization failed them. I mean even Buchnevich, he was forces into the lineup, took him years to get the strength to play his game, something that doesn't seem to happen anywhere else. I'm happy we cleaned house and am encouraged by the fact we sent Othmann down.

It it’s also not. The Rangers have had 2 generational level goalie talents that were not selected anywhere near the first round so yes I get you point about how first round picks around here should just be traded away they’ve been so bad but there are some good ones on the roster too, especially Miller.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

It it’s also not. The Rangers have had 2 generational level goalie talents that were not selected anywhere near the first round so yes I get you point about how first round picks around here should just be traded away they’ve been so bad but there are some good ones on the roster too, especially Miller.

We have the best goalie coach in the league, and that just shows whats possible if the team used their strength of being a prime destination and a rich franchise and stock the support staff with nothing but the best in the league instead of rewarding mediocrity with life long jobs. While i didn't mention it i was more so talking about skilled forwards than Dmen or goalies. We're good at developing grinders, dmen and goalies, we're terrible at encouraging and developing skill up front, up until now atleast. We are notorious for trying to get skilled players to play like bottom 6 players, stiffling their creativity and not leaving room for any error. I like the new direction and the realization from the organization finally that big changes needed to be made and they were.

Yeah but if you play devil’s advocate he had it easier by being third on the left wing depth chart. No pressure, easier matchups, no spotlight by being thrown to the lion’s den right away and the possibility of him not being able to handle the top line duties. Sure 3 coaches is hard for any player but at some point you have to see improvement somewhere. He’s the same player he was since his rookie year.

And as a 3rd line player with limited pp time, how have his stats been? I'd argue being one of our better 5 on 5 scorers while being on the 3rd line is pretty decent. It's not what you want from a 1oa but there's the chicken and the egg argument of would he get more points with more minutes vs he should have more points to get more minutes.

 

[Profet]

- If everybody plays scissors hockey, be a rock.

Someone tell the Rangers... because the entire league is playing sciessors hockey but we keep playing paper.

 

[CLW]

Yeah but if you play devil’s advocate he had it easier by being third on the left wing depth chart. No pressure, easier matchups, no spotlight by being thrown to the lion’s den right away and the possibility of him not being able to handle the top line duties. Sure 3 coaches is hard for any player but at some point you have to see improvement somewhere. He’s the same player he was since his rookie year.

He is the same player. He looks bigger this camp but also more lost. The PTO comment may be evil but it's painfully close to the truth. If he finds his way back to the player he was in the '22 playoffs and builds from there it's a start.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

He is the same player. He looks bigger this camp but also more lost. The PTO comment may be evil but it's painfully close to the truth. If he finds his way back to the player he was in the '22 playoffs and builds from there it's a start.

Maybe he's been nursing an injury since early in camp? I don't know if that's true but it could be a factor. I mean, Zib, Kreider, Panarin etc all looked like shells of themselves in camp but nobody is proclaiming their careers dead either.

 

[Profet]

Maybe he's been nursing an injury since early in camp? I don't know if that's true but it could be a factor. I mean, Zib, Kreider, Panarin etc all looked like shells of themselves in camp but nobody is proclaiming their careers dead either.

Huh?

EVERYONE is saying that Panarin is on the decline.

EVERYONE is saying that Kreider is on the decline.

Zib actually was injured to start camp. And he always starts out slow anyway. Also... he has ZERO to prove.

These straw man arguments and mental gymnastics to try and show Laf in a better light are absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Huh?

EVERYONE is saying that Panarin is on the decline.

EVERYONE is saying that Kreider is on the decline.

Zib actually was injured to start camp. And he always starts out slow anyway. Also... he has ZERO to prove.

These straw man arguments and mental gymnastics to try and show Laf in a better light are absolutely ridiculous.

What are you talking about, nobody outside of Kakko and Cuylle had a good camp but everyone puts it all at the feet of one guy is my point. Basing a young players career on a camp where everyone was ass is dumb. Everyone has excuses for everyone else but with Lafrienere its because he was eating all summer and not working out, stupid things people made up with zero credibility. I don't know why people can't just let the season play out and see how it goes its not like hes 32 years old or something, has a long career ahead of him. The ridiculous posts of him getting a try out after his contract or getting traded for 3 or 4th rounders is asinine.