Player Discussion Alexis Lafreniere

[Raspewtin]

Even worse than you think, Yakupov outscored Lafreniere by 11% through their first 216 games, in an era that had 16% lower scoring. People aren’t alarmed enough. He is significantly worse than Yakupov.

in addition, yak wasn’t even a “good” 1st overall. even at the time he was seen as a weak one that could be supplanted by Murray in the right team.

Lafreniere had HYPE. everyone here can retroactively deny it but he did. the consensus was he was at least the best 1st overall forward since matthews. everyone in the world had him #1 and an immediate impact player

i’m so f***ing sick of the grandstanding that we want him to fail. we’re a truly tortured sports franchise who’s major weakness for 50 f***ing years was developing or acquiring homegrown forward talent. I have every right to hate the circumstances this ducking bum has put us in. i would sell one of my kidneys for this f***ing gnome to break out. not even be a 100 point star player, just a good top line player at this point. not only is that entirely reasonable, i don’t feel one ounce of shame for sticking to it. this kid has embarrassed this organization at a national level at this point and until he turns it around he’s f***ing dead to me

 

[NickyFotiu]

Where does Key go in a 2018 redraft? 5 or 6 for me.

We had three picks available and got 1 of the 2 good players left in the first round. Would have been nice to get two of them but that has to be viewed as a success.

That is a good question. At this point in time I could see anywhere from 5-7.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Even worse than you think, Yakupov outscored Lafreniere by 11% through their first 216 games, in an era that had 16% lower scoring. People aren’t alarmed enough. He is significantly worse than Yakupov.

I do not agree with that. Yak scored less after his rookie year and was a big minus player. He even got to play with McDavid at times. Laf has Yak beat imo.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Some positive news.

 

[will1066]

Some positive news.

He can use the day to be constructive and master how to use the three seashells

 

[ReddestRum]

He can use the day to be constructive and master how to use the three seashells

A few more rat burgers to strengthen him up too. Maybe make a few for Zibanejad while at it.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

This is the weird bit for me. Regardless of what line he started on, with what teammates, had he already been neutered in his first 5-10 games, preseason included? Had he already been benched and demoted, told to be a grinder? Had we preemptively been in touch all summer, making sure to destroy his confidence before his debut?

Then why did he arrive at the NHL looking like he had cinder blocks on his legs and without a clue how to effectively play his position? It’s not like Laf came out of the gate full of fire and we told him to pipe down. He looked indistinguishable from a Goodrow or Vesey or McKegg the second he arrived. Except slower than all of them.

Bedard showed up in his first preseason game and said “nice to meet you, I’m Connor and I’m going to be a superstar”. It wouldn’t have mattered if he played 12 minutes with Entwistle and Guttman (who? Exactly). His first shift, he hopped the boards, looked to get in the play and when the puck hit his stick he took off and started trying to make moves and show his stuff. And succeeded.

Jack Hughes did the same thing. MacKinnon the same. Even Yakupov did that, he just also was really bad defensively and had blinders on offensively so he eventually fizzled out. But he still came out flying from day one, trying to make plays. Even Kakko to an extent looked pretty good very early on. So why did Laf, who supposedly would have “easily” gone before Hughes if they were in the same draft year, show up looking like Quinn spent the entire summer kicking his dog every time he suggested he was going to be a scorer while yelling “you’re a grinder, Alexis! Grind!”?

Agree with this.

Not saying the Rangers couldn’t have done more to cultivate whatever talent he was bringing at the time - but if they had - would Lafs trajectory as a player be any different?

That I’m not sure about

 

[Machinehead]

Would you give up significant assets for Laf? I wouldn't. That's why I want him gone, im still hopeful some GM out there is fooled by his draft pedigree.

I could still see us getting a late first.

He's about the age Lundkvist was and arguably not a worse prospect.

Where Lafreniere is now is still a better outcome than most late firsts.

That being said, time is running out of he continues to play like this. He's been a non-NHL'er his last stretch of 15-20 games.

 

[Profet]

I could still see us getting a late first.

He's about the age Lundkvist was and arguably not a worse prospect.

Where Lafreniere is now is still a better outcome than most late firsts.

That being said, time is running out of he continues to play like this. He's been a non-NHL'er his last stretch of 15-20 games.

This team does surprisingly well with mid-late first round picks in recent memory.

Othmann
Chytil
Miller
Lundkvist
Schneider (I know your personal opinion, but he would still go higher in a redraft)
Skjei
Bozo
Kreider
Del Zotto

But for f*** sakes.. this team just can't draft in the top 10. It would be comical if we didn't put so much emotional energy into this team.

 

[CLW]

I could still see us getting a late first.

He's about the age Lundkvist was and arguably not a worse prospect.

Where Lafreniere is now is still a better outcome than most late firsts.

That being said, time is running out of he continues to play like this. He's been a non-NHL'er his last stretch of 15-20 games.

Best case scenario is that he works his butt off and becomes a Landeskog type for us. Let's hope he does, but I will believe it when I see it. I get that progress isn't linear but... He checked out. Checking in again is harder than checking out but he has to do that. A mid/late first seems so pointless.

 

[IDvsEGO]

I could still see us getting a late first.

He's about the age Lundkvist was and arguably not a worse prospect.

Where Lafreniere is now is still a better outcome than most late firsts.

That being said, time is running out of he continues to play like this. He's been a non-NHL'er his last stretch of 15-20 games.

I really cant see this take.
Laf is an actual NHL player. Capable of scoring in the NHL.
Kirby Dach got a first, newhook got a first, both at the times of the trades, were not out producing laf.

 

[Machinehead]

I really cant see this take.
Laf is an actual NHL player. Capable of scoring in the NHL.
Kirby Dach got a first, newhook got a first, both at the times of the trades, were not out producing laf.

So what do you think he gets? A high 1st?

Once you go higher than 15OA, the majority are quality NHL'ers. It falls off a cliff after 15 and it falls off the face of the universe after 30.

Lafreniere is still better than most players taken after 15, but there's no reason to give up a pick higher than 15 to take a flier on Lafreniere.

 

[NickyFotiu]

So what do you think he gets? A high 1st?

Once you go higher than 15OA, the majority are quality NHL'ers. It falls off a cliff after 15 and it falls off the face of the universe after 30.

Lafreniere is still better than most players taken after 15, but there's no reason to give up a pick higher than 15 to take a flier on Lafreniere.

If a team really luvs the chance at a former #1 maybe we could get a 1st and a 2nd if we throw in a 3rd during the trade deadline silly season?

 

[IDvsEGO]

So what do you think he gets? A high 1st?

Once you go higher than 15OA, the majority are quality NHL'ers. It falls off a cliff after 15 and it falls off the face of the universe after 30.

Lafreniere is still better than most players taken after 15, but there's no reason to give up a pick higher than 15 to take a flier on Lafreniere.

I don’t even get why we’d want to move Laf. He’s a middle 6 wing, making 2.35m for this year and next. He put up 35 points at ES.
I seriously can’t understand the hate.
Is he producing at Connor mcdavid numbers? Of course not, but he’s a middle 6 nhl player on a playoff team, and adds to our actual nhl depth.
We have probably the most talented roster I’ve seen in my life. We have a good balance of skill, and grit, and Laf is a player who plays a physical game, and won’t shy away from it.
Our run in 21 he was a big part of it, aggressive, and he scored some clutch goals.
This is his d+4, let’s see what he looks like once the team has learnt the actual system (not the first 5-10 games).

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

GMs won't be able to resist the #1 overall lure.

Guys like Griffin Reinhart who were WAY worse than Laf got 1st rounders.

 

[Savant]

GMs won't be able to resist the #1 overall lure.

Guys like Griffin Reinhart who were WAY worse than Laf got 1st rounders.

Griffin Reinhart was also a big defensemen, and teams will roll the dice on those physical traits. Bogosian, Schenn, etc

Lafreniere is a winger that cannot shoot, skate, pass or defend

 

[Profet]

Lafreniere is a winger that cannot shoot, skate, pass or defend

But but... he's still young.

Just wait 'til next year...

 

[Savant]

But but... he's still young.

Just wait 'til next year...

I mean I don’t need to beat a dead horse, but I just don’t see what he does above average at NHL level. I’d move before too late But who knows what value you can get at this stage

im just saying guys like Griffin Reinhart also sucked but in theory had some utility. I don’t know what lafreniere’s utility is

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I think the hate and criticism is so overblown.

But outside of Jovo, no one is really actively rooting against him.

 

[PuckLuck3043]

I don’t even get why we’d want to move Laf. He’s a middle 6 wing, making 2.35m for this year and next. He put up 35 points at ES.
I seriously can’t understand the hate.
Is he producing at Connor mcdavid numbers? Of course not, but he’s a middle 6 nhl player on a playoff team, and adds to our actual nhl depth.
We have probably the most talented roster I’ve seen in my life. We have a good balance of skill, and grit, and Laf is a player who plays a physical game, and won’t shy away from it.
Our run in 21 he was a big part of it, aggressive, and he scored some clutch goals.
This is his d+4, let’s see what he looks like once the team has learnt the actual system (not the first 5-10 games).

Stop making actual sense. That's not allowed on this board.

 

[UnSandvich]

Stop making actual sense. That's not allowed on this board.

Especially in, god forbid, the Lafreniere thread.

 

[Profet]

I don’t even get why we’d want to move Laf. He’s a middle 6 wing, making 2.35m for this year and next. He put up 35 points at ES.
I seriously can’t understand the hate.
Is he producing at Connor mcdavid numbers? Of course not, but he’s a middle 6 nhl player on a playoff team, and adds to our actual nhl depth.
We have probably the most talented roster I’ve seen in my life. We have a good balance of skill, and grit, and Laf is a player who plays a physical game, and won’t shy away from it.
Our run in 21 he was a big part of it, aggressive, and he scored some clutch goals.
This is his d+4, let’s see what he looks like once the team has learnt the actual system (not the first 5-10 games).

Again...

The why is simple.

His trade value is greater than his on ice value is or ever will be.

That's literally it.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Again...

The why is simple.

His trade value is greater than his on ice value is or ever will be.

That's literally it.

Ah yes. Let’s trade the boat for a mystery box. It could even be another boat.

 

[LokiDog]

Every single person saying “he’s already a middle six winger” by virtue of putting up 35 points is seriously overvaluing those points. The NHL isn’t a vacuum. There are guys who could put up 35 points in a middle six role who are on waivers every year. Denis Gurianov today is an example.

You have to DO something and have a role to have a successful career if you’re a 40 point player. Laf has no role. He does nothing. He isn’t a forechecking machine. He isn’t a speedster who adds an element to keep opponents on their toes. He is physical, but he’s not a big punishing guy who makes an impact. Nor is he a relentless little bastard who uses his motor and tenacity to make an impact. He isn’t a back checker at all. He’s atrocious defensively so not a shutdown or matchup guy. He doesn’t have a cannon shot where you load him up for a one-timer whenever you can. He’s just there.

Someone else said it and it’s very accurate - he’s Ales Kotalik without the shot. Kotalik was a 35-45 point player with one outlier season of 62 points who was out of the league within 8 years of his debut. If you can’t skate, can’t defend, don’t put constant pressure on the other team with your motor, don’t drive play, etc. it doesn’t matter that you can put up 35-40 points. You’re not long for the league.

Objectively Gurianov can fly and has more skill than Radek Faksa or Zemgus Girgensons. In 2020-21, at 22 years old, Gurianov put up 30 points 55 games, which is better than .5 points per game (45 point pace) and better than anything Laf has done so far. Today he’s on waivers. Faksa has never had more than 33 points in a season but is going into his 9th season with one team. Girgensons has hit 30 points on the nose ONCE and is going into his 10th season with the same team. Because they both actually BRING more than just the total number of points you guys keep alluding to when saying Laf is a “middle six player at worst” and they have roles that provide value to their clubs. Goodrow has a career high of 33 points. He’s looking like he will have a more successful and longer career because he DOES more than what those point totals represent. If we judged him on paper, Laf is better, right? Younger and out scoring him? But we don’t judge on paper, and Laf can’t even carry Goodrow’s jock, let alone a player like Sutzle or Hughes or MacKinnon, whom he was supposed to be as good/better than.

So middle six at worst? No. Laf is playing his way out of the league at worst. At BEST he is a middle six winger who needs to improve his impact if he wants to stay there. You’re not a middle six or top line or whatever player JUST by virtue of the point column on paper. HOW you play and arrive at those points and what else you contribute MATTERS. Laf does nothing. If points were all that matters PA Parenteau would have been a “top six” or even “first line” winger. He had 67 points one year and averaged about 50 per 82. He fizzled out of the league and finished his career in the KHL and is essentially a forgotten nobody, because despite whatever points he produced his game was super flawed and the juice wasn’t worth the squeeze. Laf’s juice isn’t worth the squeeze. If we’re getting 35-40 points and NO defense, no playmaking, no forechecking, no backchecking at 2.5M from a guy who could theoretically bring back a mid 1st rounder, I would certainly argue that we could get 35-40 points and speed and forechecking by simply claiming Gurianov, putting him in Laf’s slot and getting that mid-1st for Laf. On ice results for us will be almost indistinguishable - the speed might actually be welcomed - and we add another asset to the war chest, maybe to spend on a need down the road.

If Laf can’t contribute anything aside from the points you guys keep hanging your hats on, than his worth is extremely minimal and eventually we will see that when he’s in Gurianov’s place in another 2-3 years and we’re all bemoaning how Drury didn’t trade him while he was still worth something. He’s trending to be a Kotalik, Gurianov or Parenteau and not a Goodrow, Faksa or Girgensons. Funny thing is Goodrow, Faksa and Girgensons have had better careers than Kotalik, Gurianov and Parenteau despite never producing near as much. The guys who brought some offense but nothing else all fizzled out as nothings. The guys who could impact a game despite not being big scorers stick around. Because they actually provide something aside from the points. Think Hagelin.

If I had to make a wager on my son’s safety or education or something today, I would wager Laf is much, much closer to being a reclamation project who bounces around the league a bit and is gone by 30 than he is to being a 60+ point player.

 

[Ruggs225]

Embarrassing