Player Discussion Alexis Lafreniere

[bhamill]

He’s 22 in 5 days. Before the season even starts officially. The fact that he’ll be 22 when camp starts isn’t even relevant. He’s 22 this season. He’ll be 23 next. As @mike14 showed above, he has had opportunities. It’s a lack of his ability to seize a single one that is the problem, not the lack of them being given.

So you’re saying he will be 22 going into camp next season... This is why I usually use D+ instead of age. If he turned 23 before camp that wouldn’t change the point of my post.
when I say “opportunity” I mean the normal opportunity high picks get. 30 second pp2 shifts starting outside the O zone is not indicative of that sort of opportunity for instance. Of course he’s had opportunities. Even being on an NHL roster for a week is an opportunity. This is a semantics argument. All opportunity is not equal.

 

[CTTribe73]

If AL is truly a bust as a 1/1 there will be countless pieces written on the subject because I think there'd be a good argument for him being the most egregiously over-drafted player in the analytics era given the group think that attended his projections.

Personally I don't think it's possible that the evaluators got him wrong lack of skating ability notwithstanding. I think the Rangers have done a pretty damn good job of annihilating the kid's confidence such that they have completely sapped his competitive will and resilience.....which might not have been that strong to begin with but still. There have got to be some limits to idea that playing in Big Bad NYC is some kind of absolute character litmus test where if you cannot be thrown in the deep end without a life preserver and swimming lessons but are still expected to live up to outside expectations.

Now if my first point does turn out to be the case I think it's an pretty big chit in the corner of those who would prefer to emphasize 'will' over 'skill'. Would nicely go to prove that there really is a quality necessary for success in the NHL that metrics cannot even begin to capture.....but then again, you sort of need that thick skin to succeed in life generally. So maybe the Rangers need to do a better job of measuring the mental and not so much the physical. Reminds me a bit of the Yankees and their difficulty gauging players' ability to deal with the environment in the Bronx (see Gray, Sonny; Gallo, Joey; Hicks, Aaron).

Maybe the kid scores 45 goals this year and all of this becomes so much bullshit. Now wouldn't we all like that to be the case?

 

[LokiDog]

So you’re saying he will be 22 going into camp next season... This is why I usually use D+ instead of age. If he turned 23 before camp that wouldn’t change the point of my post.
when I say “opportunity” I mean the normal opportunity high picks get. 30 second pp2 shifts starting outside the O zone is not indicative of that sort of opportunity for instance. Of course he’s had opportunities. Even being on an NHL roster for a week is an opportunity. This is a semantics argument. All opportunity is not equal.

Again, you’re talking about averages, not actual opportunities. He hasn’t ONLY ever seen PP2 neutral zone starts. He hasn’t ONLY played with other kids. That’s what he averages. On AVERAGE thats where he ends up. Because when he gets chances in the other situations he shits himself worse than my toddler. But he’s had literally a dozen chances to change that. Each time he literally looks closer to needing a diaper change than belonging there. That’s ON HIM. Few players ever even have the opportunity TO fumble as many opportunities as Laf has - he is literally living off of his draft pedigree right now, otherwise he’s easily in Hartford or on waivers.

Age going into camp isn’t a thing. The age you are during the season is historically what is mentioned. His 22y season. His 29y season. I think Ovie had some historic 35y and 36y seasons. Laf is 22 this year. He’s 23 next year. Trying to act like he’s “only” 21 is fully disingenuous. This is his 22y season.

Frankly, every single post you’ve read and responded to of mine in this thread is giving him more credit than my instinct even tells me to, because he’s a Ranger. If he was on the Debs or Isles I would be mercilessly shitting on how absolutely pathetic everything about his game is. He doesn’t have a trait I can say stands out or is above average to me. Not one.

And honestly, if we stop trying to find salvation narratives in his minutes, linemates, PP time, etc. and just pretend we are writing a scouting report on a player we’ve never seen before, here’s my scouting report:

This player f***ing absolutely sucks. At everything. Lazy. Complacent. Average to below average in every aspect of the game.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

admit it - doesn't it feel real good to finally get that off your chest? the past 10 days or so i could you were dancing around a bit but finally you just said eff-it and wham!!!

 

[Profet]

Again, you’re talking about averages, not actual opportunities. He hasn’t ONLY ever seen PP2 neutral zone starts. He hasn’t ONLY played with other kids. That’s what he averages. On AVERAGE thats where he ends up. Because when he gets chances in the other situations he shits himself worse than my toddler. But he’s had literally a dozen chances to change that. Each time he literally looks closer to needing a diaper change than belonging there. That’s ON HIM.

Age going into camp isn’t a thing. The age you are during the season is historically mentioned. His 22y season. His 29y season. I think Ovie had some historic 35y and 36y seasons. Laf is 22 this year. He’s 23 next year. Trying to act like he’s “only” 21 is fully disingenuous. This is his 22y season.

Frankly, every single post you’ve read and responded to of mine in this thread is giving him more credit than my instinct even tells me to, because he’s a Ranger. If he was on the Debs or Isles I would be mercilessly shitting on how absolutely SHITTY everything about his game is.

Frankly, if we stop trying to find salvation narratives in his minutes, linemates, PP time, etc. and just pretend we are writing a scouting report on a player we’ve never seen before, here’s my scouting report:

This player f***ing absolutely sucks. At everything. Lazy. Complacent. Average to below average in every aspect of the game.

 

[Filip Chytil]

Again, you’re talking about averages, not actual opportunities. He hasn’t ONLY ever seen PP2 neutral zone starts. He hasn’t ONLY played with other kids. That’s what he averages. On AVERAGE thats where he ends up. Because when he gets chances in the other situations he shits himself worse than my toddler. But he’s had literally a dozen chances to change that. Each time he literally looks closer to needing a diaper change than belonging there. That’s ON HIM.

Age going into camp isn’t a thing. The age you are during the season is historically mentioned. His 22y season. His 29y season. I think Ovie had some historic 35y and 36y seasons. Laf is 22 this year. He’s 23 next year. Trying to act like he’s “only” 21 is fully disingenuous. This is his 22y season.

Frankly, every single post you’ve read and responded to of mine in this thread is giving him more credit than my instinct even tells me to, because he’s a Ranger. If he was on the Debs or Isles I would be mercilessly shitting on how absolutely SHITTY everything about his game is.

Frankly, if we stop trying to find salvation narratives in his minutes, linemates, PP time, etc. and just pretend we are writing a scouting report on a player we’ve never seen before, here’s my scouting report:

This player f***ing absolutely sucks. At everything. Lazy. Complacent. Average to below average in every aspect of the game.

Elite gum chewer though. Perhaps the best in the league there.

 

[bhamill]

Again, you’re talking about averages, not actual opportunities. He hasn’t ONLY ever seen PP2 neutral zone starts. He hasn’t ONLY played with other kids. That’s what he averages. On AVERAGE thats where he ends up. Because when he gets chances in the other situations he shits himself worse than my toddler. But he’s had literally a dozen chances to change that. Each time he literally looks closer to needing a diaper change than belonging there. That’s ON HIM. Few players ever even have the opportunity TO fumble as many opportunities as Laf has - he is literally living off of his draft pedigree right now, otherwise he’s easily in Hartford or on waivers.

Age going into camp isn’t a thing. The age you are during the season is historically what is mentioned. His 22y season. His 29y season. I think Ovie had some historic 35y and 36y seasons. Laf is 22 this year. He’s 23 next year. Trying to act like he’s “only” 21 is fully disingenuous. This is his 22y season.

Frankly, every single post you’ve read and responded to of mine in this thread is giving him more credit than my instinct even tells me to, because he’s a Ranger. If he was on the Debs or Isles I would be mercilessly shitting on how absolutely pathetic everything about his game is. He doesn’t have a trait I can say stands out or is above average to me. Not one.

And honestly, if we stop trying to find salvation narratives in his minutes, linemates, PP time, etc. and just pretend we are writing a scouting report on a player we’ve never seen before, here’s my scouting report:

This player f***ing absolutely sucks. At everything. Lazy. Complacent. Average to below average in every aspect of the game.

No. Im talking about his opportunities in comparison to other 1OA picks since we are comparing his performance to other 1OA picks. If he was picked at 20th or in the 2nd round we’d all be okay with him. So of COURSE we should be consistent. And the fact is his opportunities have not been typical of a 1OA.
No he hasnt ONLY played with other kids, and I never said that. But his most frequent linemates were Kakko and Fil. And he’s gotten shit pp time.
His year of development is what interests me not whether he’s in the older or younger half of it. You can feel free to fixate on that. Going into camp is a convenient marker because it’s the start of the year for hockey fans. I don’t see the problem. But yeah, again, THIS is why I normally just reference what D+ year it is because it’s more relevant to development.
Im not trying to find “salvation narratives” I’m dealing with reality. Yes the reality is he has been disappointing, but what I’ve referenced about his opportunities is also reality. The player absolutely f***ing sucks “for a 1OA,“ but you are basically saying that half the forwards in the NHL f***ing suck if you are not qualifying your statement because statistically he is a borderline 3rd/2nd liner. Im sorry, but that’s ridiculous. You can hate the player all you want. He’s still a legit NHLer at the age of almost 22.
And no I wouldn’t be shitting on him if he was on the Devils because I don’t shit on players in general. You do you, but that’s not me.

 

[bbny]

It doesn't matter anymore that Lafreniere did not get the opportunities that typical 1OAs get. It should have come out somewhere along the way by now, 3 years in, that his skill and talent were evident. It hasn't. It's clear he's not a 1OA talent, and I think that came into focus throughout last season. 1OAs that are worth going 1OA have talent that shine through in a fairly obvious way. Can't hide behind "Laf's situation" anymore.

So the question to answer is what is he then? I don't think he's trash. I think that's just disappointment talking, which is understandable but also a bit misguided. I think if the Rangers can move past the 1OA pedigree, they can start thinking 40 pts at 21 from a glass half full rather than half empty point of view. If the team can't move past the 1OA optics, then they have to get rid of him because it's just not what he is, and he won't get the time to develop like a normal young 20s prospect might. That's what he is. A normal young 20s prospect. He's not special.

I think he might still develop into a quality 50-60 point mid-6 player who can play around the net. He's slow and lacks a motor, that stinks, but he's got good hand/eye, is good at finding open spaces w/o the puck, and there's a good shot in there too. He just can't create space to use it. I kind of think he should keep (start? lol) putting on muscle and increase his mass. I don't believe he's going to get faster at this stage, but he can get bigger and stronger and make a career out of it around the net. Teams need those types too. It sucks the Rangers missed out on a supposed franchise altering opportunity, but there's a risk that things swing too much in the other direction and they lose out on a quality player as a result.

 

[bhamill]

It doesn't matter anymore that Lafreniere did not get the opportunities that typical 1OAs get. It should have come out somewhere along the way by now, 3 years in, that his skill and talent were evident. It hasn't. It's clear he's not a 1OA talent, and I think that came into focus throughout last season. 1OAs that are worth going 1OA have talent that shine through in a fairly obvious way. Can't hide behind "Laf's situation" anymore.

So the question to answer is what is he then? I don't think he's trash. I think that's just disappointment talking, which is understandable but also a bit misguided. I think if the Rangers can move past the 1OA pedigree, they can start thinking 40 pts at 21 from a glass half full rather than half empty point of view. If the team can't move past the 1OA optics, then they have to get rid of him because it's just not what he is, and he won't get the time to develop like a normal young 20s prospect might. That's what he is. A normal young 20s prospect. He's not special.

I think he might still develop into a quality 50-60 point mid-6 player who can play around the net. He's slow and lacks a motor, that stinks, but he's got good hand/eye, is good at finding open spaces w/o the puck, and there's a good shot in there too. He just can't create space to use it. I kind of think he should keep (start? lol) putting on muscle and increase his mass. I don't believe he's going to get faster at this stage, but he can get bigger and stronger and make a career out of it around the net. Teams need those types too. It sucks the Rangers missed out on a supposed franchise altering opportunity, but there's a risk that things swing too much in the other direction and they lose out on a quality player as a result.

Yeah. Really how he was handled in comparison to othe high picks only matters in comparing his development so far to other high picks. If we are just talking about what he is as player empirically, it doesn’t matter where he was picked or how he was handled. 50-60 points is certainly something you’d think was attainable for a player who scored about 0.5 ppg per in the NHL in his D+3...

 

[Profet]

I hate to keep rehashing, but...

We can't simply ignore that he was a 1OA pick. Not because we are pining for Bedard or Hughes, but because that is part of his resume.

And that one bullet on his resume inflates his value around the league far beyond his actual value. And more importantly, I believe, it increases his value beyond what it will ever be.

Trade him before the rest of the league sees his actual value. Before it is too late.

 

[NickyFotiu]

At some point you are what you are. Id like to be taller but I stopped growing decades ago. A player will become the player he has worked his skills to become. Draft position, coaches, linemates may play small roles but eventually you are who you are. 5 years in to a nhl career nobody cared that Lundy was a 7th round pick. 5 years in to a NHL career nobody cared that Dan Girardi was not drafted. Players become who they are. At some time draft point becomes irrelevant.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

At some point you are what you are. Id like to be taller but I stopped growing decades ago. A player will become the player he has worked his skills to become. Draft position, coaches, linemates may play small roles but eventually you are who you are. 5 years in to a nhl career nobody cared that Lundy was a 7th round pick. 5 years in to a NHL career nobody cared that Dan Girardi was not drafted. Players become who they are. At some time draft point becomes irrelevant.

The only problem is that we have a history of failing players we think are high end players. I'm really doubtful the amount of players that don't reach their potential would have happened somewhere else. Even Kakko who by all means looks like he's turning a corner, he was a full grown man getting to the league, was considered to be NHL ready, but it's taken a lot longer than it should have and he's still not even close to what he was projected. Lias Andersson, supposed to be NHL ready...can't even make the habs now, Kravtsov, NHL ready, playing in Russia, Grachev,nhl ready, fail, DelZotto comes in as a powerplay qb leaves this team broken and takes years to become a decent player again, the list goes on and on. The more concerning thing is that a lot of these guys never recover from this shitshow we had going on here. Kids here are never allowed even the minute little mistake before having the rug pulled from them. They weren't given proper training regiments by the looks of all of them either. The good thing is that Drury cleaned house, and the old Rangers would have had Othmann in the lineup starting day, pencilled in on line 2 and 2 days later he'd be on the 4th line. I see change in how things are done now, it's what I've been begging for since years, let young players learn pro hockey in Hartford. This isn't to take the heat off Lafreniere, one only needs to look at the body composition of Bedard to realize one guy is living for this and the other might be coasting on past accomplishments, but the organization should be there to push him when he coasts and that seemingly hasn't happened with him or the others. As i said before though the encouraging thing is that it looks like Drury is changing the culture, wasn't a fan of his until this offseason but i like the fact he cleaned house.

 

[CLW]

I hate to keep rehashing, but...

We can't simply ignore that he was a 1OA pick. Not because we are pining for Bedard or Hughes, but because that is part of his resume.

And that one bullet on his resume inflates his value around the league far beyond his actual value. And more importantly, I believe, it increases his value beyond what it will ever be.

Trade him before the rest of the league sees his actual value. Before it is too late.

We can't get around this point. If Laffy was just a struggling mid 1st round pick the issue would be different. But he isn't.

Friedman was talking about how the Rangers have done everything this summer to get Laffy going and were "bristling" (I think that was the word) at suggestions Laffy might be traded. But, to me that sounds like damage control as much as support of Laf. Management washing their hands off failure and putting it all on Laf. It's not that easy and this situation can easily become toxic.

Personally I think he should have been traded when it became apparent he wasn't going to earn a huge contract this summer.

Anyway here we are. The best hope now is that Lavi can get Laffy going by hook or by crook. But hope is a fragile mistress. Laffy's shit camp hasn't done anyone any favors AND it points to him not being in a good place mentally.

 

[NickyFotiu]

The only problem is that we have a history of failing players we think are high end players. I'm really doubtful the amount of players that don't reach their potential would have happened somewhere else. Even Kakko who by all means looks like he's turning a corner, he was a full grown man getting to the league, was considered to be NHL ready, but it's taken a lot longer than it should have and he's still not even close to what he was projected. Lias Andersson, supposed to be NHL ready...can't even make the habs now, Kravtsov, NHL ready, playing in Russia, Grachev,nhl ready, fail, DelZotto comes in as a powerplay qb leaves this team broken and takes years to become a decent player again, the list goes on and on. The more concerning thing is that a lot of these guys never recover from this shitshow we had going on here. Kids here are never allowed even the minute little mistake before having the rug pulled from them. They weren't given proper training regiments by the looks of all of them either. The good thing is that Drury cleaned house, and the old Rangers would have had Othmann in the lineup starting day, pencilled in on line 2 and 2 days later he'd be on the 4th line. I see change in how things are done now, it's what I've been begging for since years, let young players learn pro hockey in Hartford. This isn't to take the heat off Lafreniere, one only needs to look at the body composition of Bedard to realize one guy is living for this and the other might be coasting on past accomplishments, but the organization should be there to push him when he coasts and that seemingly hasn't happened with him or the others. As i said before though the encouraging thing is that it looks like Drury is changing the culture, wasn't a fan of his until this offseason but i like the fact he cleaned house.

The draft is a crap shoot. Some years its like shooting fish in a barrel. Other years its like searching for gold. In the years we have had top picks its been fairly spotty. Some of our picks (Lias, Krav, and possibly Laf) turned out to be mistakes. Chytil, Kam, Schneider, and KK haven't been mistakes. In the spotty draft years a lot of teams came up disappointed not just us.

 

[Brutananadilewski]

We can't get around this point. If Laffy was just a struggling mid 1st round pick the issue would be different. But he isn't.

Friedman was talking about how the Rangers have done everything this summer to get Laffy going and were "bristling" (I think that was the word) at suggestions Laffy might be traded. But, to me that sounds like damage control as much as support of Laf. Management washing their hands off failure and putting it all on Laf. It's not that easy and this situation can easily become toxic.

Personally I think he should have been traded when it became apparent he wasn't going to earn a huge contract this summer.

Anyway here we are. The best hope now is that Lavi can get Laffy going by hook or by crook. But hope is a fragile mistress. Laffy's shit camp hasn't done anyone any favors AND it points to him not being in a good place mentally.

You misspelled crack.

 

[CLW]

The only problem is that we have a history of failing players we think are high end players. I'm really doubtful the amount of players that don't reach their potential would have happened somewhere else. Even Kakko who by all means looks like he's turning a corner, he was a full grown man getting to the league, was considered to be NHL ready, but it's taken a lot longer than it should have and he's still not even close to what he was projected. Lias Andersson, supposed to be NHL ready...can't even make the habs now, Kravtsov, NHL ready, playing in Russia, Grachev,nhl ready, fail, DelZotto comes in as a powerplay qb leaves this team broken and takes years to become a decent player again, the list goes on and on. The more concerning thing is that a lot of these guys never recover from this shitshow we had going on here. Kids here are never allowed even the minute little mistake before having the rug pulled from them. They weren't given proper training regiments by the looks of all of them either. The good thing is that Drury cleaned house, and the old Rangers would have had Othmann in the lineup starting day, pencilled in on line 2 and 2 days later he'd be on the 4th line. I see change in how things are done now, it's what I've been begging for since years, let young players learn pro hockey in Hartford. This isn't to take the heat off Lafreniere, one only needs to look at the body composition of Bedard to realize one guy is living for this and the other might be coasting on past accomplishments, but the organization should be there to push him when he coasts and that seemingly hasn't happened with him or the others. As i said before though the encouraging thing is that it looks like Drury is changing the culture, wasn't a fan of his until this offseason but i like the fact he cleaned house.

10 points to me for braving that wall of text.

Anyway, the point that the kids were given flawed training regimes stand out to me. I and others have commented on that a lot from the very start. Also the fact the kids were smacked down for the tiniest mistakes (and scapegoated by shit coaches) is a frequent point.

Drury has started to change things, hopefully they learnt from their mistakes and the changes are more than token. The Rangers has the means (if not the mentality) to be cutting edge, rather than behind and catching up to/micking others.

 

[haohmaru]

Last night's game PPTOI

Wheeler 3:58
Kakko 3:32
Laffy. 3:25
Cuylle 3:23

So, fairly even btw these guys.

Thanks for the stats but anyone that really watched already knew it.

I think Laf, for Laf, actually had his best game of the preseason. I'm kinda on board with what Larry said - stick him on a line, in a role, and tell him this is where you are hook or crook for at least the next 20 games. Let's see what you got.

 

[will1066]

Thanks for the stats but anyone that really watched already knew it.

I think Laf, for Laf, actually had his best game of the preseason. I'm kinda on board with what Larry said - stick him on a line, in a role, and tell him this is where you are hook or crook for at least the next 20 games. Let's see what you got.

I never read my own articles, but I like the idea of just leaving Laf and Kakko where they are for a stretch longer than 5 periods and let them simmer.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

The draft is a crap shoot. Some years its like shooting fish in a barrel. Other years its like searching for gold. In the years we have had top picks its been fairly spotty. Some of our picks (Lias, Krav, and possibly Laf) turned out to be mistakes. Chytil, Kam, Schneider, and KK haven't been mistakes. In the spotty draft years a lot of teams came up disappointed not just us.

It's always us that it happens to. I get that once you get past the first round its hit or miss but every player that we have hopes for either busts out or takes forever to develop into 80% of what they should have been. Lias was NHL ready according to everyone in the know, had just had a great world junior minus the medal toss, Kravtsov was playing with men in Russia, had all the skill in the world, those picks turned out bad, i think the organization had a huge part in that, i dont think either guy forgot how to play hockey, i think in key development years the organization failed them. I mean even Buchnevich, he was forces into the lineup, took him years to get the strength to play his game, something that doesn't seem to happen anywhere else. I'm happy we cleaned house and am encouraged by the fact we sent Othmann down.

 

[CLW]

It's always us that it happens to. I get that once you get past the first round its hit or miss but every player that we have hopes for either busts out or takes forever to develop into 80% of what they should have been. Lias was NHL ready according to everyone in the know, had just had a great world junior minus the medal toss, Kravtsov was playing with men in Russia, had all the skill in the world, those picks turned out bad, i think the organization had a huge part in that, i dont think either guy forgot how to play hockey, i think in key development years the organization failed them. I mean even Buchnevich, he was forces into the lineup, took him years to get the strength to play his game, something that doesn't seem to happen anywhere else. I'm happy we cleaned house and am encouraged by the fact we sent Othmann down.

Howden was traded and over one summer and one camp became an NHL player. At least Drury understood that something was rotten.

 

[NickyFotiu]

It's always us that it happens to. I get that once you get past the first round its hit or miss but every player that we have hopes for either busts out or takes forever to develop into 80% of what they should have been. Lias was NHL ready according to everyone in the know, had just had a great world junior minus the medal toss, Kravtsov was playing with men in Russia, had all the skill in the world, those picks turned out bad, i think the organization had a huge part in that, i dont think either guy forgot how to play hockey, i think in key development years the organization failed them. I mean even Buchnevich, he was forces into the lineup, took him years to get the strength to play his game, something that doesn't seem to happen anywhere else. I'm happy we cleaned house and am encouraged by the fact we sent Othmann down.

Lias? Lias was compared to Jesper Fast at the draft. Nobody I knew was excited about him being drafted. My dad even asked is it just me or does the second guy (Chytil) look like he has a much better chance to be a good pick?

 

[NickyFotiu]

Former Rangers Jaromir Jagr, Pavel Bure, Marty St. Louis, Zooks, Steve Larmer, etc have what in common?

Howden was traded and over one summer and one camp became an NHL player. At least Drury understood that something was rotten.

He had 13 points last season. I don't know if you want to place the bar so high

 

[Raspewtin]

don't care how petty this sounds

if we truly do cut bait with Lafreniere, I hope he fails miserably wherever he goes. we're a "ruins talent" laughing stock mostly because of this clown and his stupid happy go lucky attitude.

i'd also feel much better that he was just an overdrafted bum and the Rangers aren't renegade ruiners of talent.

sorry

 

[Ruggs225]

This thread is embarrasing.

Try rooting for our team instead of ripping the kid apart.

And the overreaction by some is incredible. At the end of the day at worst he is still a middle six forward.


Yes not what we wanted, but not useless or isnt an nhl.

What an embarrassment this thread has become.

 

[LiveLongandProspal]