Player Discussion Alexis Lafreniere
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- Apr 16, 2012
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I would think so, I certainly do. What makes you think anyone would deny those players making bigger improvement? It’s not some zero sum game where there’s only so much improvement to go around. hahaha.
I think the people who are optimistic are optimistic in GENERAL. Personally I like to look for positives. I accept the negatives but I don’t let them stomp out all positives.
I know that seems like an unfair standard being set, and is also an exaggeration, but the difference is that Lindgren is already cemented as part of our top pair with pretty awful puck skills but damn near elite defensive positioning and he fills his role well. You’re not going to have too many chances per year to call Lindgren lazy. You can blame him for the miscommunication, but at the end of the day he is a top tier work horse who defends well even if he doesn’t move the puck well, or do much else. Laf has simply not got an excuse to stop skating. He isn’t Fox’s partner. He isn’t established. He isn’t elite at anything. He’s equidistant from being a 50 point player and being out of the league. He simply does not GET to coast.
Unfair? Maybe. Life works that way. Lindgren has reliably partnered with Fox on the top pair and done a damn good job of it for years while bleeding for this team and doing everything he can. Laf probably has more skill, but has done absolutely f*** all, and unfortunately that’s how you’re graded in life.
NickyFotiu
NYR 2024 Cup Champs!
- Sep 29, 2011
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That is an interesting point. That is why if I was the coach I would speak to laf. Ask him what he thinks his strengths are. Ask him who he identifies with as a player. I do not think we really know what he thinks in that regard. Maybe there are some big guys that are not quick that he could learn from if he studies their tapes? In the NBA I know some teams give players tapes of other players past and present to study to learn from. Kobe used to mimic Jordans footwork in the post. Many guys studied Bird's tapes. Maybe we it could help Laf? No I do not want Laf shooting 3 pointers.
- Apr 16, 2012
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Fair or unfair doesn’t really matter, honestly. And you are pretty measured in your criticisms, I certainly don’t look at you as the Chicken Little type. And I t’s not like I want to run down Lindgren either. I’m just saying this was not a goal that was due to one player f***ing up. It was a breakdown in coverage. Laf was partly at fault. But some posters make it sound like this was something egregious by one player leading directly to a goal against when it was a “group effort.” I didn’t like the play on Laf’s part of course. But it’s the sort of “growing pain” you get with young players. People screaming to trade him over it is just wild to me.
EXTRAS
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- Jul 31, 2012
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Tavares?That is an interesting point. That is why if I was the coach I would speak to laf. Ask him what he thinks his strengths are. Ask him who he identifies with as a player. I do not think we really know what he thinks in that regard. Maybe there are some big guys that are not quick that he could learn from if he studies their tapes? In the NBA I know some teams give players tapes of other players past and present to study to learn from. Kobe used to mimic Jordans footwork in the post. Many guys studied Bird's tapes. Maybe we it could help Laf? No I do not want Laf shooting 3 pointers.
That is an interesting point. That is why if I was the coach I would speak to laf. Ask him what he thinks his strengths are. Ask him who he identifies with as a player. I do not think we really know what he thinks in that regard. Maybe there are some big guys that are not quick that he could learn from if he studies their tapes? In the NBA I know some teams give players tapes of other players past and present to study to learn from. Kobe used to mimic Jordans footwork in the post. Many guys studied Bird's tapes. Maybe we it could help Laf? No I do not want Laf shooting 3 pointers.
Not actually related but if you were watching Tkachuk really close in the playoffs, his greatest strength is definitely how he uses his frame to box out players and then uses shoulder takes and spins out of the box out to create space from which he either bangs in a rebound or makes a play. Interestingly enough he grew up with Jayson Tatum of the Celtics and he looks a lot like an NBA power forward sometimes with the way he actually works around the net front. Laf could actually benefit a ton from modeling himself like Matt Tkachuk. I don’t think he’s ever going to be as much of a physical presence as Brady, but Matt is the better brother and better role model for Laf’s game.
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NickyFotiu
NYR 2024 Cup Champs!
- Sep 29, 2011
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Ideally it would be another wing not a center but it probably does not matter that much. I would just want to hear from Laf what he views as his strength because sometimes guys are delusional about positives and negatives. Years ago a Knicks player was taking a lot of 3 point shots. He was not a horrible 3 point shooter but he was not a good one either. He was a very good slasher though. Clyde Frazier asked him why he was shooting so many 3 pointers. The player responded Clyde I have to shoot them. They are leaving me wide open. Clyde responded "they are leaving you wide open for a reason". Maybe we just have to identify Lafs strengths and get him to learn how to lean in to those.
Kendo
Registered User
His production has increased each season. If he fails to break 40 pts this season, then you can say he’s stagnated. Friendly nickel wager on over under .5 ppg?
- Jul 28, 2011
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His goal scoring production in 2022-2023 is down from the previous season. (also lower than his pace per 82 during his first season)
His scoring 5 on 5 per 60 in 2022-2023 is down from the previous season, which was down from his first season. So more minutes seems to be doing the complete opposite.
His defense didn't improve last season and I think you can make the argument that it was actually worse.
I'm not wagering on his production because I wasn't arguing that he can't produce more. I'm calling him a bad player on the ice who hasn't been trending upward.
But I think going from on pace for 30 points in season 1, to on pace for 32 in season 2, to 39 in seasons 3 is a big stretch for trending upwards even if you just look at point totals.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
People bring up the skating but like, I don't see a player with obvious weaknesses. You can work around obvious weaknesses.
Fox isn't a phenomenal skater. Kreider can't pass. We've talked about Lindgren. Even Trouba, say what you will, is an NHL player with his room temperature hockey IQ.
And it's not like he's one of those guys who looks good and has abilities, but just doesn't seem to score (you know who I'm talking about).
Everything about watching Lafreniere play in the NHL indicates a guy that couldn't make the jump from juniors to the real deal. Nothing he does it at an NHL+ level and that's why he looks slow and threatless literally all the time. He doesn't just skate slow. He reacts slow, he moves his hands slow, he shoots slow. He's not at the level this league is at in terms of being an offensive player.
He's an NHL player, probably a decent one if he focused on being a bottom sixer a la Vesey after his first few years, but to me, the offense just never made the jump. It's still a jump no matter how good your numbers are down there.
Fox isn't a phenomenal skater. Kreider can't pass. We've talked about Lindgren. Even Trouba, say what you will, is an NHL player with his room temperature hockey IQ.
And it's not like he's one of those guys who looks good and has abilities, but just doesn't seem to score (you know who I'm talking about).
Everything about watching Lafreniere play in the NHL indicates a guy that couldn't make the jump from juniors to the real deal. Nothing he does it at an NHL+ level and that's why he looks slow and threatless literally all the time. He doesn't just skate slow. He reacts slow, he moves his hands slow, he shoots slow. He's not at the level this league is at in terms of being an offensive player.
He's an NHL player, probably a decent one if he focused on being a bottom sixer a la Vesey after his first few years, but to me, the offense just never made the jump. It's still a jump no matter how good your numbers are down there.
Go back a few pages to my post about Robo. “Bad” skater who thinks and processes the game so fast he’s already making the pass or deke or shot before he’s even received the puck. Laf’s skating is a problem but it’s so not THE problem. His brain isn’t capable of being elite at the NHL level. I have almost zero doubt that he can’t simply grow out of that or that more minutes, etc will change that. Can he be, as you point out, a Vesey, or Goodrow or quality bottom six player if he JUST focuses on that? Definitely has the physical tools, but he has to accept the fact that he cannot think the game at a first line level and dedicate himself to actually being a role player. He’s not just going to accidentally be a good one.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
My reaction to watching him is not that he's frustrating like Kakko. Kakko will have shifts where you're like "there should be more points than this" or "of course Kakko makes the play and doesn't get a point."
Lafreniere is almost the opposite. I sit there just waiting to notice him and if anything, the point totals far exceed what my eyes tell me they should be.
And like, I don't care. Over large samples, results are results, but he doesn't get enough of them to shake how bad he looks.
- Apr 16, 2012
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Yeah Laf should study Matt. Laf is actually probably as physical or more, but obviously not as EFFECTIVE. Matt would be a great role model. Try to emulate MT’s intensity as well. Kakko could learn from watching Matt too, in fact I think he’d benefit even more. Their games down low are stylistically different n the same ball park.
You guys. I’m on my way to Dallas and I guarantee you Laf would be way behind me. Not just because he’s slow but he also doesn’t read traffic well. He’ll never be an elite driver like me.
i just had the pleasure of watching the 2023 goal reel of robo - what a player!!! the shot accuracy, iq, ability to be effective in small spaces and odd angles. and it's not just robo with roope and pavelski. gels just as well with benn and seguin. barring any setbacks one day i can see this guy scoring 60 goals.
Yeah, the kid is a beast. He improved his skating massively the summer before last, very publicly focusing on it intensely and it paid huge dividends with a franchise record season. He’s also a good dude - he puts on clinics for the children of military families which I appreciate greatly as a vet.
But what really gets me is looking at the return on investment in our 1OA (and 2OA, and 7, and 9) and then realizing the Stars got Heiskanen, Oettinger and Robertson in two rounds of the same draft.
you may already be sick of hearing it but i'll post - thank you for your service.
that dallas team is loaded. and deboer is due to coach for a cup.
that dallas team is loaded. and deboer is due to coach for a cup.
- Jul 28, 2011
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Fox is shifty on his feet. He has Edgework. He has balance. He has pivots. He can stop and start. He's just skating in mud at times. Laf has none of those qualities. But I agree, he's not thinking the game at an NHL level. Everything is slow.
haohmaru
boomshakalaka
Yeah - that was my point. That's out of the frying pan and into the fire.
Crease
Chief Justice of the HFNYR Court
- Jul 12, 2004
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Kendo
Registered User
AL D+2 = .392 ppg
AL D+3 = .476 ppg
KK D+2 = .354 ppg
KK D+3 = .419 ppg
KK D+4 = .488 ppg
FC D+2 = .307 ppg
FC D+3 = .383 ppg
FC D+4 = .524 ppg
FC D+5 = .328 ppg
FC D+6 = .608 ppg
Laf had better D+1, D+2, and D+3 seasons than either.
Laf was a MUCH older player in his draft year and Fil was a baby in his, so Fil popped off in his D+4 more than Laf's D+3 (which is a much more fair comparison, imo). But he also had a pretty poor follow up the next year, so it's a mixed bag. He was a mid first, so it's easier to forgive some of the growing pains, and that patience was rewarded last season when he popped off yet again. I know that "every player can put together a highlight reel," but Fil does something "filthy" much more often than Laf does. For sure.
KK has had very similar production to Laf (as far as D+X season), yet slightly worse. But he certainly shows some serious "eye test skills" that go beyond point production. So despite being 8 months older (I'm not buying the "will be the same age soon" thing because obviously Kakko will then be "a year older" 4 months after that), I will say that the difference between his 40 pts and Laf's 39 is quite a bit better than 1 point.
So I'm with you that the other "kids" have shown more outside of the score sheet than Laf thus far, but neither of them have outpaced his scoring at the same developmental year (except for 20-21 Chytil if you fudge his draft year to be basically the same age as Laf, which is a fudge in your favor that I support). The hope is (and I'd argue that it's not "cope," but I understand if that's the retort) that Laf's slightly better production at this stage of his career compared to the others is not just "empty calories." Like a Zherdev, that had a better age 21 season than any of them.
One can show that statistically Laf has done more sooner, but he hasn't shown one specific thing that he's "great at," while the other two have. There's no way to be more fair than that.
As an aside, Miller is a different beast entirely. He was perfectly serviceable by his D+3 season and then took an entire leap in his D+5 season. His 43 points were waaay more impressive than Fil's 45, imo.
Kendo
Registered User
You can say that 30 to 32 to 39 is not increasing "enough," but you can't say that it's not literally increasing. I'm being super good faith here.
See my other post for reference (or if these get merged). We have seen more "not on the scoreboard" progression from Fil and Kaapo at similar ages. But Laf has demonstrably scored more points in his first three seasons. This season will be VERY telling, but NEXT season will be the make or break season if he doesn't show something more than a minor point increase.
Shesterkybomb
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- Dec 30, 2016
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Man...can the regular season start already.
HabsAddict
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I have very limited knowledge of Lafs game but what I was understanding from your posts, he process the game like an Atari.
I'm not sure you can do much with a guy who needs time to read the ice. If he doesn't have any other elite tools, then he simply crippled whatever tools he has.
In 2001 the Habs drafted Komisarek. I play RD and was over the moon that the Habs have a monster RD. The kid even looked like my younger self.
I started to go to Hamilton games (AHL team) just to watch him play. Reality struck hard. He had decent skating, strong as anyone but had a fundamental flaw, he didn't process the game. Guys would come down the wing and he either got fished or they would skate around him. I be sitting 10 rows up and groaning...close the lane, don't chase him, cover the angle. All the basic stuff he should be doing, he simply didn't see them.
Worse, after another brain fart, he would go to the bench, shake his head and sulk. Julien wasn't much help because all he did was brow beat him and bench him.
How do you teach someone to process the game? That's impossible. All one can do is rinse and repeat what they should do, but unlike skating, it's not going to change much.
He finally made it to the NHL and was paired with Markov, a guy who made his living on processing the game. Played with him for few years then bolted for the Leafs. Got one contract and was out of the NHL before 30.
If Laf can't process the game the the only slight hope is to pair him with an elite vision center that has the patience to explain the game to him. In turn he has to be the net presence guy or the corner digger, or the blazing shot....bring SOMETHING to his game that makes him productive.
Good luck with him....
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