Player Discussion Alexis Lafreniere

[Raspewtin]

i'm as frustrated with him as anyone but if you're taking to social media to harass him you're a piece of shit. absolutely embarrassing.

 

[Profet]

If your parents bought you a Subaru when you really expected a Lambo, are you going to give away the Subaru when the only other mode of transportation you have available is a Vespa? Don't bite your nose to spite your face.

So if you paid for a Lambo but the dealer gave you a Vespa, are you going to be content with driving the Vespa?

This logic is bonkers.

 

[NickyFotiu]

He's 21 and had 40 points last year. He may not be living up to expectations, but he's not busting.

The honest truth is that there are two factions here-- those that can see how Laf got here over the last three years, and want to give him the space to be the best player he can be (because we are actual fans of the team).

And those who somehow take it personally that he's not a Hart trophy winner by age 21, and have decided that they hate him as a player and as a person for not meeting their personal expectations (because they derive joy from the misery of others, and would rather their spite be validated than see the team/player succeed).


Side note--I'd be really curious to know how many of the people on the "trade Laf for a 7th round pick" brigade were also charter members of the "trade Chytil for nothing because it would be addition by subtraction" squad back when Chytil was 21 and having some struggles.

I believe there are probably many real fans that are in-between the everything would be great if Laf played 18 minutes a game and the trade Laf for a 7th round pick groups.

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

Its fair to be disappointed in Laf thus far. Its also fair to be hopeful that he'll still be a very good player. Any person can be one or both of those things and not contradict themselves.

 

[Greschner4]

Trade him soon, before his value completely tanks.

I like the kid and really want him to succeed, but even his mix tape from the Q wasn't that impressive. Still don't begin to see any of the predraft hype, and whatever it was that precipitated it clearly hasn't come close to translating to the NHL.

In traffic, he has NHL-caliber hands and instincts. They're pretty good. His overall hockey IQ, including what spots to go to, is NHL-caliber and pretty good.

That's all I got.

 

[mas0764]

No, and was definitely the first one I thought of. The Bedard move is still more impressive to me, and the fact that he’s barely turned 18 and is testing NHL level defense for the first time (second game) in his life carries some weight for me, but…

My point hasn’t ever been about flashy single plays. We can google genuinely mind boggling highlights from people like Miles Wood or sick breakaway goals from Brendan Smith - the whole NHL is capable these days. What’s significant to me with the Bedard highlight is that it’s the 4th or 5th of its kind in just 2 games ever, and the reason that’s significant to me is that, in 2023 when even Ryan Reeves and Milan Lucic CAN score highlight reel, between the leg goals, it’s the frequency that a player brings you out of your seat and shows that he’s a threat that is usually a good indicator of their success.

There’s a lot of ways to do that - as a finisher like Zib or Ovie, or in tight finisher like Robertson, or as a dangler like Marner, or a full-ice rusher like Makar or McDavid. The point is simply that even if Ovie only converted at 50% of his current rate, you’d still know the guy was good for 25-30 goals with a LETHAL one timer. When a player shows these types of flashes with absolute normalcy, as if this is simply the way the game is played when they’re on the ice, that generally indicates they’re a special player.

The Laf goal was awesome. Chytil hit a Forsberg one-handed in tight that I loved. I appreciate these goals, but we’re in an era where most players who make it to the NHL are capable of pulling off a move like that. It’s the players who are in the right time/place and have the skill to attempt these things 3+ times per game that you know you have a truly special player. Bedard has been able to vote for 60 days and has been doing this 2-3-4 times per appearance. Laf has done it a handful of times in 4 years.

His ability to have done it yet again tells me it's a confidence thing as to why doesn't do it more.

But "headcase" is still one of the things that prevents a guy from fulfilling their potential. Bedard has confidence and Laf does not.

 

[Profet]

The Laf goal was awesome. Chytil hit a Forsberg one-handed in tight that I loved. I appreciate these goals, but we’re in an era where most players who make it to the NHL are capable of pulling off a move like that. It’s the players who are in the right time/place and have the skill to attempt these things 3+ times per game that you know you have a truly special player. Bedard has been able to vote for 60 days and has been doing this 2-3-4 times per appearance. Laf has done it a handful of times in 4 years.

Agreed.

I'd say the difference is that most players have to wait for the stars to align for the right opportunity to do these things.

And on the other end, you have the players with the talent to make the opportunity happen to do these things.


Being drafted at #1, we expected the latter... what we have is the former.

 

[Machinehead]

If your parents bought you a Subaru when you really expected a Lambo, are you going to give away the Subaru when the only other mode of transportation you have available is a Vespa? Don't bite your nose to spite your face.

If they told me it's a Lambo, then yes. I'm not going to want to drive it after that.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

i've seen these cars called vespas before on the streets of brooklyn from time to time. i just didn't know what they were called until this now. i don't know how to drive. i have to assume that the idea of driving one of those on a highway has to be terrifying.

comparing 13 to a vespa is the perfect analogy. 13 on the ice vs fast teams that have the ability to score from end to end of the rink is terrifying, but if the mph of the game is slowed down considerably and played at 1/2 of the rink 13 and a vespa would be more prudent and effective.

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

 

[CLW]

View attachment 748176

Well, bubblegum is in for rough ride this autumn. Kreider and Zib are going to take their sweet time to get going like they always do, and the team will probably take a few weeks to adapt to the new system. Then there's the upcoming West coast trip where the team usually looks godawful. If he is catching heat now wait until people are pissed off about the team looking rough and losing games they perhaps shouldn't. His best bet really is to work his tail off every second of every shift.

 

[NYR94]

Send him to a darkness retreat like Rodgers.

 

[LokiDog]

Its fair to be disappointed in Laf thus far. Its also fair to be hopeful that he'll still be a very good player. Any person can be one or both of those things and not contradict themselves.

I think this comes back to a couple of the questions I’ve tried posing in this thread.

Many of us are asking what the hope he can still be a “very good player” is based off of.

I hope every player in the system, including Leschyshcnxhajal become great players. But know they won’t. With Laf, what is it that makes us hopeful? Again, the answer is always circumstantial factors adjacent to his performance that cannot tangibly be proven to be related to his performance. He’s 21. He needs more minutes. He needs better linemates. He needs a real coach. People still bring up Covid shortened camp (which every player his age experienced in their first year) here in his fourth pre-season.

What nobody ever brings up is a specific attribute or tool or quality about Laf that is the source of their hope he will get better. It’s not the consistent progress he’s shown each camp in improving his skating. It’s not the elite shot he owns. It’s not that he has a crazy motor on the ice or work ethic off of it. It’s not that he is looking more confident or reading the ice faster. It’s just that he’s 21. Or that our coaches are big fat stoopid heads.

People also never really define what a “very good player” is. If it’s a 50 point complimentary winger, okay, sounds plausible, but not an asset that’s going to make or break our success one way or the other. If it’s a 70 point play driver, again I’d ask “based on what?” Not because I wouldn’t also like that but because I simply can’t see it. If you told me I could bet $100 today and it would be $1000 if Laf ever hit 70 points, I would keep my $100.

The consensus on the main trade board is that his value is somewhere between Dach (13th and 66th) and Newhook (31st and 37th). If that’s true, I probably would take that - with every demotion and every camp he arrives at showing little progress or improvement, the likelihood of a return like that one dwindles. Laf was 1OA. If you got the Dach return of 13 + 66, you dropped 12 spots and got a very early third as well. For how disappointing Laf’s been, only falling 12 spots is a god send.

If Laf really looked good and seemed like it was just a matter of timing or truly a matter of opportunity I’d be more inclined to have patience, but my personal feeling is that Laf is only being GIVEN patience because of his draft pedigree. He plays more ES minutes than Kreider. He plays mostly with two players we all believe should be in the top six, which stands to reason that he plays with top six talent. So he gets more minutes than a top six winger, playing with top six talent, and theoretically getting softer matchups because of it, and yet he looks like a slug most nights. Nothing there indicates to me that we should pass if some team offered us picks 18 and 58.

I just haven’t ever been able to get anyone to point to anything about Laf himself and his actual performance when telling me why they’re so hopeful that he’ll still become a very good player. All I hear is he’s 21. His coaches were stupid dumb dumbs. He doesn’t get enough minutes. He doesn’t play with good enough players. His first camp was Covid. Nothing like “he’s improved his skating every single summer since we drafted him and worked on his shot a lot and he’s looking quicker and more dangerous”. Just, he’s gonna magically arrive one day. No need to show improvement. One day it just clicks apparently.

I’m not trying to be confrontational, rude or single you out AT ALL. I’m simply saying I’ve asked these questions with genuine, honest intentions and can never seem to get them answered. It feels like most who seriously believe in Laf do so BECAUSE he’s our 1OA and that creates an irrational, automatic investment and so we have to believe he’s gonna turn it around. If Laf had been drafted by Montreal or LA or Ottawa or Anaheim, we would absolutely be telling fans of those teams that they were exercising wishful thinking at this point. So I ask our fans, what - other than wishful thinking - indicates that more patience is the answer, rather than getting the best return possible while there is still value? Is the risk that Laf goes elsewhere and breaks out BIG enough for us to really look bad about it greater than the risk that Laf has another 38 point season and his value is a mid third this time next year? I don’t know the answers. I just don’t personally SEE hope when watching Laf play. You could see hope with KK, Chytil, Otthman now, etc. I can’t see it with Laf.

 

[Kendo]

Listen to yourself:

"If the facts were completely different you would be ecstatic."

Uh... Ok?

The fact is that Laf wasn't a lower draft pick and didn't exceed expectations. It's the opposite. And our franchise player is nothing but a 3rd liner.

I can't get ecstatic for that.

I'm a Rangers fan, that doesn't mean I have to agree with their decisions.

You don't throw good money after bad. Time to cut our losses on Lafreniere.

I don't get it. He's a 21yo 40pt player trending upwards. Why cut your losses on that? If you think his play is going to drop off a cliff, then that would make sense I guess, even if I disagree.

The entire hockey world expected more from him, but he is a useful piece that still has further upside. I wouldn't trade him for anything less than a top 10 pick at this point in time, and if no one's offering that then fine. Keep him.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

He needed to blow the doors off at camp and in the preseason. Everyone and their mother knew this. And this is how he looks?

Trade him right f***ing now. I've seen enough to see that this is what he is.

Why did he need to do that? He's got a contract and a roster spot. What he needed to do was stay healthy and get used to the right side. Preseason is for bubble players to show their worth and for roster players to loosen up.

 

[Kendo]

The consensus on the main trade board is that his value is somewhere between Dach (13th and 66th) and Newhook (31st and 37th). If that’s true, I probably would take that - with every demotion and every camp he arrives at showing little progress or improvement, the likelihood of a return like that one dwindles. Laf was 1OA. If you got the Dach return of 13 + 66, you dropped 12 spots and got a very early third as well. For how disappointing Laf’s been, only falling 12 spots is a god send.

Since he's signed to a reasonable deal through *next* season, I'm not taking the mid/late 1st plus this season. At trade deadline 2025, I'll consider it, depending on what he does this season.

 

[Profet]

I don't get it. He's a 21yo 40pt player trending upwards. Why cut your losses on that? If you think his play is going to drop off a cliff, then that would make sense I guess, even if I disagree.

The entire hockey world expected more from him, but he is a useful piece that still has further upside. I wouldn't trade him for anything less than a top 10 pick at this point in time, and if no one's offering that then fine. Keep him.

What is to get?

He's a dime a dozen third liner. I don't see anything about his game to make me think otherwise.

I'd rather trade him for some upside if possible. Opening up a little cap space, as well as (and more importantly) a roster spot for one of the kids that has shown in camp that they could replace Lafraniere (Othmann/Cuyle).

At this point, keeping him is poor asset management. His role is easily replaceable. And he has shown no signs of having the talent required of an increased role.

Since he's signed to a reasonable deal through *next* season, I'm not taking the mid/late 1st plus this season. At trade deadline 2025, I'll consider it, depending on what he does this season.

You're not getting that next season (there are some doubts that you could even get that currently).

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

I think this comes back to a couple of the questions I’ve tried posing in this thread.

Many of us are asking what the hope he can still be a “very good player” is based off of.

I hope every player in the system, including Leschyshcnxhajal become great players. But know they won’t. With Laf, what is it that makes us hopeful? Again, the answer is always circumstantial factors adjacent to his performance that cannot tangibly be proven to be related to his performance. He’s 21. He needs more minutes. He needs better linemates. He needs a real coach. People still bring up Covid shortened camp (which every player his age experienced in their first year) here in his fourth pre-season.

What nobody ever brings up is a specific attribute or tool or quality about Laf that is the source of their hope he will get better. It’s not the consistent progress he’s shown each camp in improving his skating. It’s not the elite shot he owns. It’s not that he has a crazy motor on the ice or work ethic off of it. It’s not that he is looking more confident or reading the ice faster. It’s just that he’s 21. Or that our coaches are big fat stoopid heads.

People also never really define what a “very good player” is. If it’s a 50 point complimentary winger, okay, sounds plausible, but not an asset that’s going to make or break our success one way or the other. If it’s a 70 point play driver, again I’d ask “based on what?” Not because I wouldn’t also like that but because I simply can’t see it. If you told me I could bet $100 today and it would be $1000 if Laf ever hit 70 points, I would keep my $100.

The consensus on the main trade board is that his value is somewhere between Dach (13th and 66th) and Newhook (31st and 37th). If that’s true, I probably would take that - with every demotion and every camp he arrives at showing little progress or improvement, the likelihood of a return like that one dwindles. Laf was 1OA. If you got the Dach return of 13 + 66, you dropped 12 spots and got a very early third as well. For how disappointing Laf’s been, only falling 12 spots is a god send.

If Laf really looked good and seemed like it was just a matter of timing or truly a matter of opportunity I’d be more inclined to have patience, but my personal feeling is that Laf is only being GIVEN patience because of his draft pedigree. He plays more ES minutes than Kreider. He plays mostly with two players we all believe should be in the top six, which stands to reason that he plays with top six talent. So he gets more minutes than a top six winger, playing with top six talent, and theoretically getting softer matchups because of it, and yet he looks like a slug most nights. Nothing there indicates to me that we should pass if some team offered us picks 18 and 58.

I just haven’t ever been able to get anyone to point to anything about Laf himself and his actual performance when telling me why they’re so hopeful that he’ll still become a very good player. All I hear is he’s 21. His coaches were stupid dumb dumbs. He doesn’t get enough minutes. He doesn’t play with good enough players. His first camp was Covid. Nothing like “he’s improved his skating every single summer since we drafted him and worked on his shot a lot and he’s looking quicker and more dangerous”. Just, he’s gonna magically arrive one day. No need to show improvement. One day it just clicks apparently.

I’m not trying to be confrontational, rude or single you out AT ALL. I’m simply saying I’ve asked these questions with genuine, honest intentions and can never seem to get them answered. It feels like most who seriously believe in Laf do so BECAUSE he’s our 1OA and that creates an irrational, automatic investment and so we have to believe he’s gonna turn it around. If Laf had been drafted by Montreal or LA or Ottawa or Anaheim, we would absolutely be telling fans of those teams that they were exercising wishful thinking at this point. So I ask our fans, what - other than wishful thinking - indicates that more patience is the answer, rather than getting the best return possible while there is still value? Is the risk that Laf goes elsewhere and breaks out BIG enough for us to really look bad about it greater than the risk that Laf has another 38 point season and his value is a mid third this time next year? I don’t know the answers. I just don’t personally SEE hope when watching Laf play. You could see hope with KK, Chytil, Otthman now, etc. I can’t see it with Laf.

all of the above - perfectly written. just excellent!!!

up to this point the body of work reflected by the stats and many reels of film already sum up in great detail of what he is and a 95% chance of what he will always remain to be. fwiw you have a guy that's being paid fair market value for what he's historically accomplished at a 2 year contract.

take this approach: if he really turns you off while on his shift just go grab a beer, brush your teeth, briefly switch to another station, etc. and then come back in time when his shift is done.

to me he's a placeholder until othmann, cuylie and barbashev are prime ready. i'm expecting big things out of barbashev.

 

[TGWL]

I don't get it. He's a 21yo 40pt player trending upwards. Why cut your losses on that? If you think his play is going to drop off a cliff, then that would make sense I guess, even if I disagree.

The entire hockey world expected more from him, but he is a useful piece that still has further upside. I wouldn't trade him for anything less than a top 10 pick at this point in time, and if no one's offering that then fine. Keep him.

Where is he trending upwards? I get that this is the first real coach he's going to have that makes players take accountability as he's been kinda' jerked around in development (despite not showing anything), but what have you seen that's trending upwards?

He's a middle 6 player based on points alone. He terrible on the ice right now. This isn't just preseason talk. He looks no different and I think that's why fans are so disappointed. We could get a terrible player like Hoffman who can still pop in 35+ or so points and it would be no different. Points alone don't tell the entire story.

 

[Profet]

The Laf zealots are beginning to sound like how @EdJovanovski used to talk about Kravtsov, but... unironically.

Sorry Ed.

 

[Kendo]

What is to get?

He's a dime a dozen third liner. I don't see anything about his game to make me think otherwise.

I'd rather trade him for some upside if possible. Opening up a little cap space, as well as (and more importantly) a roster spot for one of the kids that has shown in camp that they could replace Lafraniere (Othmann/Cuyle).

At this point, keeping him is poor asset management. His role is easily replaceable. And he has shown no signs of having the talent required of an increased role.


You're not getting that next season (there are some doubts that you could even get that currently).

He's a middle 6 guy making $2.5 and trending upwards. That has value.

We'll see what he does this season. If he flirts with 50 pts, then at $2.5 next season he's a great piece. Even if that's his absolute ceiling, he's still a useful player.

Trading him for a late first that may never sniff 40 pts is even worse asset management, imo.

Where is he trending upwards? I get that this is the first real coach he's going to have that makes players take accountability as he's been kinda' jerked around in development (despite not showing anything), but what have you seen that's trending upwards?

Shit on him all you want, but he has improved each season.

 

[Kendo]

The Laf zealots are beginning to sound like how @EdJovanovski used to talk about Kravtsov, but... unironically.

Sorry Ed.

The difference between how Ed talked about Krav and how I talk about Laf is the difference between shooting a bullet and throwing one.

 

[duhmetreE]

Guys like Draisaitl and Tkachuk don't do anything that 'looks' impressive.... but they produce at an elite level and compete at an elite level.

At the bare minimum, the hope is to get Laffy to compete at a high level and see what that brings. He's not going to be a dynamic player like a Jack Hughes or Bedard. He's lost right now with no identity. Hopefully the coaching staff sets him on the right path.

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

I think this comes back to a couple of the questions I’ve tried posing in this thread.

Many of us are asking what the hope he can still be a “very good player” is based off of.

I hope every player in the system, including Leschyshcnxhajal become great players. But know they won’t. With Laf, what is it that makes us hopeful? Again, the answer is always circumstantial factors adjacent to his performance that cannot tangibly be proven to be related to his performance. He’s 21. He needs more minutes. He needs better linemates. He needs a real coach. People still bring up Covid shortened camp (which every player his age experienced in their first year) here in his fourth pre-season.

What nobody ever brings up is a specific attribute or tool or quality about Laf that is the source of their hope he will get better. It’s not the consistent progress he’s shown each camp in improving his skating. It’s not the elite shot he owns. It’s not that he has a crazy motor on the ice or work ethic off of it. It’s not that he is looking more confident or reading the ice faster. It’s just that he’s 21. Or that our coaches are big fat stoopid heads.

People also never really define what a “very good player” is. If it’s a 50 point complimentary winger, okay, sounds plausible, but not an asset that’s going to make or break our success one way or the other. If it’s a 70 point play driver, again I’d ask “based on what?” Not because I wouldn’t also like that but because I simply can’t see it. If you told me I could bet $100 today and it would be $1000 if Laf ever hit 70 points, I would keep my $100.

The consensus on the main trade board is that his value is somewhere between Dach (13th and 66th) and Newhook (31st and 37th). If that’s true, I probably would take that - with every demotion and every camp he arrives at showing little progress or improvement, the likelihood of a return like that one dwindles. Laf was 1OA. If you got the Dach return of 13 + 66, you dropped 12 spots and got a very early third as well. For how disappointing Laf’s been, only falling 12 spots is a god send.

If Laf really looked good and seemed like it was just a matter of timing or truly a matter of opportunity I’d be more inclined to have patience, but my personal feeling is that Laf is only being GIVEN patience because of his draft pedigree. He plays more ES minutes than Kreider. He plays mostly with two players we all believe should be in the top six, which stands to reason that he plays with top six talent. So he gets more minutes than a top six winger, playing with top six talent, and theoretically getting softer matchups because of it, and yet he looks like a slug most nights. Nothing there indicates to me that we should pass if some team offered us picks 18 and 58.

I just haven’t ever been able to get anyone to point to anything about Laf himself and his actual performance when telling me why they’re so hopeful that he’ll still become a very good player. All I hear is he’s 21. His coaches were stupid dumb dumbs. He doesn’t get enough minutes. He doesn’t play with good enough players. His first camp was Covid. Nothing like “he’s improved his skating every single summer since we drafted him and worked on his shot a lot and he’s looking quicker and more dangerous”. Just, he’s gonna magically arrive one day. No need to show improvement. One day it just clicks apparently.

I’m not trying to be confrontational, rude or single you out AT ALL. I’m simply saying I’ve asked these questions with genuine, honest intentions and can never seem to get them answered. It feels like most who seriously believe in Laf do so BECAUSE he’s our 1OA and that creates an irrational, automatic investment and so we have to believe he’s gonna turn it around. If Laf had been drafted by Montreal or LA or Ottawa or Anaheim, we would absolutely be telling fans of those teams that they were exercising wishful thinking at this point. So I ask our fans, what - other than wishful thinking - indicates that more patience is the answer, rather than getting the best return possible while there is still value? Is the risk that Laf goes elsewhere and breaks out BIG enough for us to really look bad about it greater than the risk that Laf has another 38 point season and his value is a mid third this time next year? I don’t know the answers. I just don’t personally SEE hope when watching Laf play. You could see hope with KK, Chytil, Otthman now, etc. I can’t see it with Laf.

For me, my source of hope comes from the fact that I know he has the offensive instinct, vision, passing & playmaking ability to be a "very good player". Totally fair to say that term is subjective, it is. For me it's probably just an effective top 6 winger on a top 5-10 team in the NHL. I dont know what that correlates to in terms of points, and it's more than just points. It's compete, leadership, consistency and yes, scoring/game breaking ability.

My source of hope is his success pre-NHL and my analysis that his play is stifled by his lack of confidence and belief in himself. I think that is something that can be corrected. I will say, for me he's clearly been downgraded in my eyes from potential franchise player to potential "very good player" as described above.

I also will say that I disagree with those who say he has done "nothing" to show he has the same skillset in the NHL as he did in junior. Admittedly, its few and far between, but he has moments where he shows the potential.

If my assessment is that he just needs the confidence to put it all together, then I am sure you can see my point of view that he still could reach a potential of "Very good player". A lot of this is completely subjective, of course. If analyzing talent was purely based on numbers and facts, none of this would even be a conversation.

 

[Profet]

Shit on him all you want, but he has improved each season.

Has he? Or has his linemates improved each season and dragged his numbers up?

Kakko? Huge improvements in physical abilities and confidence.
Chytil? The same.

Laf? He got some more points?