Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[bhamill]

Correct. I have done the research. I've looked at the trends and seen how these things work. Have you? I didn't think so.

Ahahaha. Okay buddy. Good luck with your next NHL team.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

It is relevant.

Every other post in that thread is a Devils fan. They're not just giving their opinions. This isn't f***ing discourse. They're targeting something they can sink their teeth into to jerk off to the Rangers.

You're helping them. You're siding with them. It's the first time in f***ing forever I've seen you on the mains. Now that the team has decent analytics you need something to be insufferable about. You're just like one of them.

Siding with people giving fair and balanced opinions and siding with people whose whole existence is to shit on the Rangers because they have little man complex are two different things. The entire existence of Devils fans is based on trolling the Rangers. They celebrate our losses greater than their wins. In fact, they're more proud of our franchise's lack of success in winning cups than them winning 3 cups in an 8 year span. It's pathetic and any Rangers fan that enables that garbage isn't a Rangers fan.

 

[LORDE]

If you believe that's "misfortune" and not the Rangers needing to improve their development, I guess we'll agree to disagree.

Kreider recently became our first drafted forward with 60 points since Homo Erectus so maybe we're turning the corner.

I don't remember him... what number did Erectus wear?

 

[Machinehead]

Siding with people giving fair and balanced opinions and siding with people whose whole existence is to shit on the Rangers because they have little man complex are two different things. The entire existence of Devils fans is based on trolling the Rangers. They celebrate our losses greater than their wins. In fact, they're more proud of our franchise's lack of success in winning cups than them winning 3 cups in an 8 year span. It's pathetic and any Rangers fan that enables that garbage isn't a Rangers fan.

This guy gets it.

That isn't a main boards thread, it's a Devils thread with plausible deniability.

I look at that the same way as I would look at going to the Devils board to shit on one of our players.

Pretty shitty thing to do.

 

[Machinehead]

I don't remember him... what number did Erectus wear?

I'm not sure they had discovered numbers.

 

[DanielBrassard]

It is relevant.

Every other post in that thread is a Devils fan. They're not just giving their opinions. This isn't f***ing discourse. They're targeting something they can sink their teeth into to jerk off to the Rangers.

You're helping them. You're siding with them. It's the first time in f***ing forever I've seen you on the mains. Now that the team has decent analytics you need something to be insufferable about. You're just like one of them.

It's not relevant but this is typical behavior from you. On the wrong side of the argument so now you have to resort to attacking me and creating this fake characterization about my intentions. Pretty sad. I'm on the main boards because there's a topic about a very polarizing Rangers player, which I've been invested in basically all season and somehow this surprises you that I'm posting in it. It's a damn message board about the sport of hockey, give me a f***ing break with this shit. It's not a literal war.

What's insufferable is the amount of BS and rationalizations about Lafreniere from you and others. Like I said before when Lafreniere or anyone plays well I give them total credit. When they play like crap and are wholly ineffective I'm gonna call it out and tough shit if that bothers you that I happen to agree with some NJ fans.

 

[Machinehead]

It's not relevant but this is typical behavior from you. On the wrong side of the argument so now you have to resort to attacking me and creating this fake characterization about my intentions. Pretty sad. I'm on the main boards because there's a topic about a very polarizing Rangers player, which I've been invested in basically all season and somehow this surprises you that I'm posting in it. It's a damn message board about the sport of hockey, give me a f***ing break with this shit. It's not a literal war.

What's insufferable is the amount of BS and rationalizations about Lafreniere from you and others. Like I said before when Lafreniere or anyone plays well I give them total credit. When they play like crap and are wholly ineffective I'm gonna call it out and tough shit if that bothers you that I happen to agree with some NJ fans.

Yeah I of all people care if I'm on the wrong side of an argument. Defending Lafreniere wouldn't even be on the AHL affiliate of the all-time team of drivel I've spewed.

Lots of people in this thread have shit on Lafreniere with waaay less compelling arguments than what you have presented. I didn't say anything about them. I said something about the poster that went to a Devils thread to get likes from Devils fans.

You just don't know what to do with yourself because we've been great for the first time since 2014 and the Rangers failing is your entire personality.

I can see why you're a natural fit over there.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Yeah I of all people care if I'm on the wrong side of an argument. Defending Lafreniere wouldn't even be on the AHL affiliate of the all-time team of drivel I've spewed.

Lots of people in this thread have shit on Lafreniere with waaay less compelling arguments than what you have presented. I didn't say anything about them. I said something about the poster that went to a Devils thread to get likes from Devils fans.

You just don't know what to do with yourself because we've been great for the first time since 2014 and the Rangers failing is your entire personality.

I can see why you're a natural fit over there.

There you go again with the baseless lies and mind-reading. I didn't go to get likes and I really don't care about NJ fans. I already told you why I posted in that thread. I couldn't be more happy about the way the Rangers are playing, you are in the GDT just as I am and you see that. Stop being dishonest.

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

I don't remember him... what number did Erectus wear?

8

 

[Machinehead]

There you go again with the baseless lies and mind-reading. I didn't go to get likes and I really don't care about NJ fans. I already told you why I posted in that thread. I couldn't be more happy about the way the Rangers are playing, you are in the GDT just as I am and you see that. Stop being dishonest.

Then you just don't understand the rivalry, and I don't know how you couldn't.

That thread is there to troll us. It's dishonest or ignorant to think it's just opinions being shared in a hockey discourse.

 

[NORiculous]

I just don't buy the usage arguments

Zegras misses the Michigan one time here and he gets demoted / benched.

And the fact that Chytil and Kakko have very similar issues indicates a problem with the way the team handles the mental aspects of being a young player here

Training/Coaching matters a LOT for these kids. Just take a look at what happened to Caufield this year as an example.

Chytil has shown more flashes than either Laf or Kakko imo.

Maybe, but Chytil has had a much easier opposition. He is somewhat sheltered.

Kakko has actually faced very very very tough opposition and drove possession like mad. Very very promising.

Lafrenière is in between Kakko and Chytil for the toughness of opposition (decent level ) and was doing a fairly decent (passable) job driving possession.

 

[Ori]

Better than Jack Hughes

 

[Savant]

I don't remember him... what number did Erectus wear?

8

VIII

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

No I don't believe multiple coaches have and are insisting that #1 and #2 overall picks play such a simple, conservative, risk-free game to the point where they aren't allowed to make highly skilled offensive plays with the puck. I find that very hard to believe.

So then how do you rationalize Lafreniere being pulled for Ryan Reaves down 2 goals in the 2nd period in Minnesota a month or so ago? I mean I just don't understand what the spin zone is on that besides "he plays heavy and chips pucks forward".

It's the kind of inexplicable decision-making we've seen more than a few times that indicates the NYR just don't really care if these kids develop because it isn't imperative to the here and now.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

That's 100% right.The story that it's the coaches fault for their lack of success doesn't align with reality for me, just doesn't. I don't think Gallant, Quinn, Drury, or the entire management team are telling Lafreniere when he carries the puck into the offensive zone to continuously get sealed off by opposing defenseman instead of skating around them and cutting behind the net looking for a passing option, or cutting to the net and dangling the goalie or dangling the defenseman in a 1-on-1 situation and making them look silly. Or telling Kakko to spin off a check on the wall and instead of staying on the outside settling for a pass to the point, he cuts in and roofs a shot or finds his linemates on the backdoor and connects on a pass.

It's almost as if you have the talent and skill it will manifest itself on the ice no matter who your coach is, who your linemates are, who your competition is, how much ice time you get. All of those variables are factors in how often those skills will translate to production, but they really have no bearing on whether or not you have the ability to make high-end plays in the first place.

You're completely glossing over the mental aspect of developing into an NHL star. No one tells Cale Makar to "go deke around people" but they absolutely enable the conditions that allow him to feel confident, to feel enabled to take risks, and that allow him to feel some imperative to deliver as a key piece for the organization. My comment will be dismissed as touchy-feely BS, but in my experience cultivating the right environment for people to succeed is crucial for success.

To deny that there is no impact, that all failures are "bad luck", is far less believable. In my experience.

 

[Psycho for Perreault]

Laf and Kakko were doing well. Laf on line 1. Kakko on line 2. Both had career high point streaks. GG moved them off those lines mid streak. Both guys were clearly worse after. No changes made to fix it. No changes will be made.

We can't complain about it cause we have had great success post TDL on lines 1 and 2. But we are outwardly making things difficult on them. So this year, enjoy the success of the team. Next year when we can't afford Strome or Copp, and Vatrano, they are back in the top 6 with the lines they had success with. Then we see how they do with a year in the spot they showed flashes. If next year they suck, then we have some problems moving forward.

It's time to stop complaining about the kids every second of every day. We are 2 points out of first. Enjoy it.

 

[DanielBrassard]

So then how do you rationalize Lafreniere being pulled for Ryan Reaves down 2 goals in the 2nd period in Minnesota a month or so ago? I mean I just don't understand what the spin zone is on that besides "he plays heavy and chips pucks forward".

It's the kind of inexplicable decision-making we've seen more than a few times that indicates the NYR just don't really care if these kids develop because it isn't imperative to the here and now.

I will try to respond to both of your posts here.

I think it's not all that useful picking apart a single game in which the team was abysmal and was getting run off the ice to use as a good example for the argument the Rangers usage is hindering the development of their young players.

I just don't understand this line of thinking, why would the Rangers not care about developing these players who are supposed to be the cornerstones of the franchise? It really makes no sense. Their development is absolutely imperative to the here and now. Part of the reason why they had to go out and make all of the additions they did at the TD was because of the lack of production of Lafreniere.

I'm not even sure it's fair to lament their usage overall. They've gotten chances, they've gotten looks with the top lines. Lafreniere started the season on the top line and they forced Kreider to his off wing where he's barely played to make that happen. His 2nd and 3rd most common linemates in his career are Zibanejad and Chris Kreider. His most common linemate is Chytil and amazingly Chytil has been way better when the two are apart than Lafreniere has been. Then he wasn't effective and they moved him down which is completely reasonable. The coach isn't going to continue to run a young player with very little track record on a top-line when he's not making plays and not producing. your expectations are unreasonable if you believe he should.

If you want to pick apart their PP usage I suppose that's fair, but that really doesn't matter much to me I don't care about their raw point totals necessarily, and I'm not convinced that would change how they look at 5v5.

Kakko has played on the 1st or 2nd line all season long, partially because there was zero depth on the right side but he has gotten that opportunity. out of all forwards with 500 minutes of ice time he's 95th in TOI/GP. you want to say he didn't produce because of his injury, ok I suppose that's a possibility. Last year he played mostly with Chytil, Strome, Panarin and Lafreniere.He's scored at a borderline 4th line rate his entire career. That's not because of lack of opportunity, or lack of a cultivating environment in my eyes.

Believe me, I want these guys to succeed more than anything. It would only make this team better but I think there's a lot of wishcasting and revisionism from people regarding these two guys in particular. The Rangers don't have a problem with them taking risks, I think Kakko and Lafreniere just for whatever reason don't have the ability to make those plays that require taking risks on a relatively consistent basis so it might seem that way.

 

[Black Tank]

If you're one of these low IQ hockey "fans" still moaning about Laf or Kakko then f*** off to a shitstain franchise like the lil debbies or the perpetual disaster in Buffalo. The Rangers are one of the best teams in the league, with the best or second best PP and are loaded with proven offensive talent in the top 6 that most teams would kill for... And Drury and Gallant are making roster and ice time decisions to chase the Cup. That's a very rare occurrence in a draft led league where the top picks get thrown in right away.

Sure it's unfair on Laf and Kakko, but this is the NY Rangers not the NY Lafrenieres or NY Kappos and is sure as f*** isn't the NY Hockeysfutures. There's the reason that the lil debbies always pick in the top 10, get confident and talk shit all summer and are out of playoff contention usually by Thanksgiving and almost certainly by Christmas. I expect the Rangers to contend for the next decade and for Laf and Kakko to get their reps in the limelight.

 

[SA16]

Because I am oh so helpful I decided to take the two minutes to look up brief changes in shot rate. I am looking at forwards with 1000+ minutes between 2018-2019 to 2019-2020 and then looking at how they did in 2020-2021 and 2021-2022 provided they played at least 1000 minutes. 28 forwards met this criteria in both sets.

I am looking at forwards with shot rates between 5.0 and 6.0 in 2018-2020 because that falls within the range Lafreniere is.

2018-2020 - 28 forwards. Low: 5.12. High 6.0. Average 5.64.

2020-2022 - Same 28 forwards, Low 4.3. High 7.52. Average 5.71. Only two players were above 7.0 (Iafallo and Ryan Strome.). 14 players went up. 14 players went down.

For reference league average is around 7.1.

The logic of "A decrease in sh% will be offset be an increase in shot rate" does not hold. Players do not generally go from well below average volume shooters to well above average.

This isn't a group of exclusively bad players. There is Evgeny Kuznetsov, Elias Pettersson, Mats Zuccarello, T.J Oshie, Nick Schmaltz, Ryan Getzlaf, Ryan Strome included among the 28.

You may now proceed to tell me how Lafreniere is different than all the other 28 players in the group because he is young and a former #1 overall pick.

 

[Machinehead]

Because I am oh so helpful I decided to take the two minutes to look up brief changes in shot rate. I am looking at forwards with 1000+ minutes between 2018-2019 to 2019-2020 and then looking at how they did in 2020-2021 and 2021-2022 provided they played at least 1000 minutes. 28 forwards met this criteria in both sets.

I am looking at forwards with shot rates between 5.0 and 6.0 in 2018-2020 because that falls within the range Lafreniere is.

2018-2020 - 28 forwards. Low: 5.12. High 6.0. Average 5.64.

2020-2022 - Same 28 forwards, Low 4.3. High 7.52. Average 5.71. Only two players were above 7.0 (Iafallo and Ryan Strome.). 14 players went up. 14 players went down.

For reference league average is around 7.1.

The logic of "A decrease in sh% will be offset be an increase in shot rate" does not hold. Players do not generally go from well below average volume shooters to well above average.

This isn't a group of exclusively bad players. There is Evgeny Kuznetsov, Elias Pettersson, Mats Zuccarello, T.J Oshie, Nick Schmaltz, Ryan Getzlaf, Ryan Strome included among the 28.

You may now proceed to tell me how Lafreniere is different than all the other 28 players in the group because he is young and a former #1 overall pick.

I agree that the offset thing doesn't hold. Your shooting percentage (A) might go down because you shot more (B) but B to A doesn't make logical sense. "Gee, my shooting percentage is too high, I better up the volume!" Wouldn't happen.

That said, he can shoot more. And he kind of has to if he wants to be anything in this league.

I wouldn't be so dismissive of the "but he's young" argument. Guys like Getzlaf, Strome, Zuccarello, etc. have had success in the NHL not volume shooting, they're not gonna change. I agree with you that non-volume shooters stay non-volume shooters.

However, Lafreniere 1) hasn't had the success we expected 2) isn't at the age where he's set in his ways and 3) was a volume shooter before. He shot at Rick Nash rates in junior hockey. He was a machine gun.

 

[duhmetreE]

Laffy and Kakko were both a part of our best lines, statistically speaking, when they were in the top6. Only as of late has Kreider Zibs Vatrano surpassed them and that's only at 100 minutes. but xG% doesn't apply to them and is thrown to the wayside when it doesn't suit your narrative.

Laffy is a leader in EVG... but his shooting% is too high, so those goals are discredited.

Laffy plays with suboptimal linemates and icetime.. but he doesn't do twirly fancy stuff like Zegras in that ice time.

Whatever suits your narrative.

 

[ReddestRum]

Laffy and Kakko were both a part of our best lines, statistically speaking, when they were in the top6. Only as of late has Kreider Zibs Vatrano surpassed them and that's only at 100 minutes. but xG% doesn't apply to them and is thrown to the wayside when it doesn't suit your narrative.

Laffy is a leader in EVG... but his shooting% is too high, so those goals are discredited.

Laffy plays with suboptimal linemates and icetime.. but he doesn't do twirly fancy stuff like Zegras in that ice time.

Whatever suits your narrative.

I like how it's "twirly fancy stuff" for other players, but I doubt anyone in this fanbase would mind having a player like Zegras who has as much confidence in his abilities than a McDavid.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

I like how it's "twirly fancy stuff" for other players, but I doubt anyone in this fanbase would mind having a player like Zegras who has as much confidence in his abilities than a McDavid.

the fans would love it, the coaches wouldn't

 

[LORDE]

I like how it's "twirly fancy stuff" for other players, but I doubt anyone in this fanbase would mind having a player like Zegras who has as much confidence in his abilities than a McDavid.

Is there no middle ground between twirly fancy stuff and top draft picks who barely appear to be NHLers?

I mean right now Vatrano & Copp are 10x the player Laf is so he's not in the top 6

Sadly it's not a stretch to see Gallant playing some of the guys we never wanna see again in a playoff game.

I honestly think the majority here who are hash on Laffy are so because, as always, we want more from him and the only way to do that (& earn more ice) is to play better regardless of his line-mates.

 

[ReddestRum]

the fans would love it, the coaches wouldn't

Zegras' 67 points in 91 games sure likes it.

I really have a hard time believing that an NHL coach, especially GG, who has been at the helm of skilled teams in the past, would intentionally gimp his players. Especially when we have players on this team that take it upon themselves to skate, twirl, and pirouette themselves into making some amazing plays.

A coach telling players to play a safe game doesn't mean that players shouldn't take advantage of chances, and we've seen this from all lines on our team. This continued rhetoric that everyone and every situation is to blame that our top picks are underperforming just continues to boggle my mind.

Maybe Laf would score more goals if he hadn't been shotless in 24 out of the 71 games he's played this season. Out of all the stats of his this season, THAT stat is the most telling.