Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[NoQuitInNewMexico]

I guess it's the one thing I'd love to read the room on: does the veteran group believe in Lafreniere and Kakko? Is there still an excitement about them behind the scenes? Because I'm sure a bunch of chill bros who like fancy hockey and tried to pretend they were the 80s Oilers in that pre-COVID Quinn period would love having Zegras around

 

[rangersfansince08]

Top6 player does not perform playing with tweeners and Filip Chytil... news at 10.

He played better on the top line 'out of position'.

He needs to work hard this offseason and accept he will not be playing Left Wing anytime soon.

Chytil has shown more flashes than either Laf or Kakko imo.

 

[DanielBrassard]

I think the idea that Gallant is going to these players and telling them "don't do this, don't do that" is a disingenuous framing of the issue. I don't think anybody is arguing that.

However, when he rewards a 4th liner with a top six spot most of the year, and you're scoring at RW but he doesn't like "your game" there, it sends a similar message.

It's not disingenuous when there are arguments from @HatTrick Swayze, (and I like Hatrick and we agree on quite a bit) about Kakko going to the media talking about how conservatively Quinn asked him to play. Plus there have been plenty of times where posters have outright said or implied they believed that to be the case, that the Rangers are literally telling these guys to play simple, risk-free, mistake-free hockey and that's why their production is suffering.

The 4th liner didn't play in the top-6 until Lafreniere didn't do a damn thing after he was put on the 1st line out of the gate. Then he stayed there because he was a better fit with Panarin and Strome and was just about as productive. But then after Kakko got hurt he was put right back on the top line. As for recently I think Gallant was right to move him off RW because that line has been even better with Vatrano there. I think the only message being sent is, we need to see more out of Alexis Lafreniere.

I guess we'll see how Laf is playing next season when he is the same age as Boldy is now. Nice to come into the league with 2 additional years of development under your belt already and time to get bigger and stronger.

I guess we will see. Apparently you can still produce at a 40+ point rate at age 20 while getting 12:24 of 5v5 ice time per game as Matt Boldy has though.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Chytil has shown more flashes than either Laf or Kakko imo.

Maybe Chytil would be producing more if he played with someone other than Lafreniere. Time to move him up to the 1st line.

 

[duhmetreE]

Chytil has shown more flashes than either Laf or Kakko imo.

what flashes has Chytil shown? He has speed. That's it. When he has his drive to go with it, it's effective and helps his line. He has flashed poor IQ/gamense/vision and hands.

If you don't think one player makes a difference on a line, look what happened to our top6 once we added Vatrano and Copp.

He has a braindead Center and a blackhole at RW. He's not going to tear it up. Laffy is not a driver right now. It is what it is.

Stylistically, he could work in the top6 but it'd have to be at RW. End of story. He's not a 3rd line player.

 

[duhmetreE]

Maybe Chytil would be producing more if he played with someone other than Lafreniere. Time to move him up to the 1st line.

Chytil would be producing more if he could actually finish or see the ice.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Chytil would be producing more if he could actually finish or see the ice.

And yet he has a higher assist rate than Lafreniere while playing with worse linemates over the course of the season. Amazin.

 

[NoQuitInNewMexico]

Putting an atrocity out into the universe rn

Lafreniere-Chytil-Gauthier
Rooney-Goodrow-Kakko

 

[ReddestRum]

Laf being asked to play risk free hockey and is a career minus in the +/- and has just has many career penalty minutes than points.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I mean, if you're only averaging 14 minutes a game and asked to play risk free, but still manage to f*** up on the ice, might as well take the occasional risk to put some points worth your draft spot up there.

 

[Machinehead]

It's not disingenuous when there are arguments from @HatTrick Swayze, (and I like Hatrick and we agree on quite a bit) about Kakko going to the media talking about how conservatively Quinn asked him to play. Plus there have been plenty of times where posters have outright said or implied they believed that to be the case, that the Rangers are literally telling these guys to play simple, risk-free, mistake-free hockey and that's why their production is suffering.

The 4th liner didn't play in the top-6 until Lafreniere didn't do a damn thing after he was put on the 1st line out of the gate. Then he stayed there because he was a better fit with Panarin and Strome and was just about as productive. But then after Kakko got hurt he was put right back on the top line. As for recently I think Gallant was right to move him off RW because that line has been even better with Vatrano there. I think the only message being sent is, we need to see more out of Alexis Lafreniere.

I guess we will see. Apparently you can still produce at a 40+ point rate at age 20 while getting 12:24 of 5v5 ice time per game as Matt Boldy has though.

Not for nothing, I'm just gonna say this here on our board, it's very f***ing annoying that you go to the main boards thread and side with Devils trolls.

As negative as I am, I've always believed in keeping your dirty laundry in your own house.

I wouldn't jump in to help if those condom accidents across the river were dunking on a Staal-Girardi pairing.

 

[bhamill]

No they don't. They show he's scoring a lot because he's shooting 20%. If he's one of the best shooters in the history of the league then I suppose his 5v5 stats are good. He probably is not one of the best shooters in the history of the league.

In any case as @DanielBrassard is trying to say the point isn't even the stats. It's the lack of doing much noticeable while on the ice. How often do you see either of these guys with an impressive rush up the ice, a great shot, a great pass? Rarely.

In any case the decision right now is fairly obvious. There are 10 games left in the season. They are tied for first in the division. This is not the time for development. If he's not one of the top six best forwards and not one of the best options on the PP then 10-12 minutes per game is what he should be getting. At the moment the focus is on the playoff run.

Oh. He’s shooting too good. Maybe if he had more top six time his percentage would go down but his opportunities would go up and even out. It’s ridiculous. It two years now. You really going to argue he can’t score because he’s scoring too efficiently?
yeah, I mean he was around a point a game for his last stretch on the first line. Terrible.
Maybe he’s not doing anything YOU notice. That’s subjective.
I didn’t argue that they should prioritize development. I said we have to make a choice. Can’t have your cake and eat it too. People want to bitch about his development but don’t want to do what it takes to develop him. Im not even saying dont bitch. If that’s what makes someone happy, go for it. Haha. I’m just saying there’s a choice. Obviously you lean the one way. IF you want to also bitch about his development you are not being realistic. It’s hysterical.

 

[SA16]

Oh. He’s shooting too good. Maybe if he had more top six time his percentage would go down but his opportunities would go up and even out. It’s ridiculous. It two years now. You really going to argue he can’t score because he’s scoring too efficiently?
yeah, I mean he was around a point a game for his last stretch on the first line. Terrible.
Maybe he’s not doing anything YOU notice. That’s subjective.
I didn’t argue that they should prioritize development. I said we have to make a choice. Can’t have your cake and eat it too. People want to bitch about his development but don’t want to do what it takes to develop him. Im not even saying do t bitch. I’m just saying there’s a choice. Obviously you lean the one way. IF you want to also bitch about his development you are not being realistic.

It does not work that way. This narrative keeps going around. Players shot rates generally do not change much from year to year or based on role. Players who shoot, shoot. You can easily look up a group of players and validate this. I am not going to do it as I have already done it and I know what the answer is. Yes, there are exceptions.

If you don't understand that a 20% shooting percentage is unsustainable it is not worth my time to try and convince you otherwise. I have already shown the results of players who shot over 17 or 18% (whatever the number was) and then how they did the next year. It was a massive drop off, as expected. It's somewhere in my post history. I am not going to go back and try to find it because I already know I am right about this and am not spending a lot of time searching the website.

 

[bhamill]

Ok he was drafted a year earlier. He's still a 20-year old rookie who gets literally the exact same amount of 5v5 ice time as Lafreniere and is still on pace for 40+ points at 5v5. He also generates 3 more shots/60 minutes and 6 more shot attempts/60 minutes. In the same amount of ice time. How is that possible?

He’s 21. And getting development opportunity on the PP that Laf is not getting. But hey just ignore that for your narrative.

 

[Lone Ranger]

They are still young, but I'm starting to get the unpleasant feeling that the Rangers had the misfortune of winning two draft lotteries, and getting two players, that will never be better than above average, not the franchise difference makers you'd expect drafting first and second overall. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[bhamill]

It does not work that way. This narrative keeps going around. Players shot rates generally do not change much from year to year or based on role. Players who shoot, shoot. You can easily look up a group of players and validate this. I am not going to do it as I have already done it and I know what the answer is. Yes, there are exceptions.

so. There are exceptions. Good to know.
of course this doesn’t change what he’s actually been doing, or my point. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
I didn’t say it was sustainable. I actually mentioned it going down as he got more opportunities and shot more. How is that difficult to grasp? But say he shoots three times as often as he develops and gets confidence and his rate drops by half to 10%. That’s a net INCREASE right there.

 

[Machinehead]

They are still young, but I'm starting to get the unpleasant feeling that the Rangers had the misfortune of winning two draft lotteries, and getting two players, that will never be better than above average, not the franchise difference makers you'd expect drafting first and second overall. I hope I'm wrong.

If you believe that's "misfortune" and not the Rangers needing to improve their development, I guess we'll agree to disagree.

Kreider recently became our first drafted forward with 60 points since Homo Erectus so maybe we're turning the corner.

 

[SA16]

so. There are exceptions. Good to know.
of course this doesn’t change what he’s actually been doing, or my point. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
I didn’t say it was sustainable. I actually mentioned it going down as he got more opportunities and shot more. How is that difficult to grasp. But say he shots three times as often as he develops and gets confidence and his rate drops by half to 10%. That’s a net INCREASE right there.

I guess I wasn't clear enough. I will be more clear now.

You are incorrect.

 

[ReddestRum]

Not for nothing, I'm just gonna say this here on our board, it's very f***ing annoying that you go to the main boards thread and side with Devils trolls.

As negative as I am, I've always believed in keeping your dirty laundry in your own house.

I wouldn't jump in to help if those condom accidents across the river were dunking on a Staal-Girardi pairing.

I remember a Laf thread on the main boards where people were criticizing the Rangers for destroying his career. I remember standing up for him in that thread, but I couldn't do it again at present. In no way did I expect Laf to score only 4 more points than his first season and in 15 more games this season. I didn't expect him to be a minus player this season despite playing a limited amount of minutes as you guys keep pointing out. I especially didn't expect him to go from 7 PIMS his first season to 37 PIMS this season. 127 games, 46 points, -10, and 45 PIMS and some people here want this guy in the top-6, playing with the best players, getting prime minutes, and prime PP minutes.

There's frustration and it's going to spill over into the mains whether you like it or not. It's taken a lot of fortitude not to agree with a lot of the negative shit on the mains said about Laf in public as well.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Not for nothing, I'm just gonna say this here on our board, it's very f***ing annoying that you go to the main boards thread and side with Devils trolls.

As negative as I am, I've always believed in keeping your dirty laundry in your own house.

I wouldn't jump in to help if those condom accidents across the river were dunking on a Staal-Girardi pairing.

I'm gonna talk to whoever, and if it just so happens that I align with a NJ fan on an issue it is what it is. It's not really relevant who says something if it's true.

 

[DanielBrassard]

He’s 21. And getting development opportunity on the PP that Laf is not getting. But hey just ignore that for your narrative.

He turned 21 on April 5th, so he is playing during his age-20 season. A whole 6 months older than Lafreniere. He wasn't a #1 overall pick either so there wasn't the expectation that he would play right away in the NHL. As well, the numbers I posted are 5v5 and have nothing to do with the PP.

 

[Machinehead]

I remember a Laf thread on the main boards where people were criticizing the Rangers for destroying his career. I remember standing up for him in that thread, but I couldn't do it again at present. In no way did I expect Laf to score only 4 more points than his first season and in 15 more games this season. I didn't expect him to be a minus player this season despite playing a limited amount of minutes as you guys keep pointing out. I especially didn't expect him to go from 7 PIMS his first season to 37 PIMS this season. 127 games, 46 points, -10, and 45 PIMS and some people here want this guy in the top-6, playing with the best players, getting prime minutes, and prime PP minutes.

There's frustration and it's going to spill over into the mains whether you like it or not. It's taken a lot of fortitude not to agree with a lot of the negative shit on the mains said about Laf in public as well.

I didn't see you in there. Sometimes it's better to say nothing.

Devils fans do nothing in the realm of hockey but watch the Rangers and post about the Rangers. That whole franchise exists to be the Bizarro version of the Rangers. I question if they have personal lives outside of the Rangers.

I wouldn't fraternize with them even if they were right.

 

[bhamill]

I guess I wasn't clear enough. I will be more clear now.

You are incorrect.

Well of course. You say so. So that’s it. Like YOU see nothing from Lafreniere so, that’s that. Hahaha. Nice talking to you.

 

[Machinehead]

I'm gonna talk to whoever, and if it just so happens that I align with a NJ fan on an issue it is what it is. It's not really relevant who says something if it's true.

It is relevant.

Every other post in that thread is a Devils fan. They're not just giving their opinions. This isn't f***ing discourse. They're targeting something they can sink their teeth into to jerk off to the Rangers.

You're helping them. You're siding with them. It's the first time in f***ing forever I've seen you on the mains. Now that the team has decent analytics you need something to be insufferable about. You're just like one of them.

 

[SA16]

Well of course. You say so. So that’s it. Like YOU see nothing from Lafreniere so, that’s that. Hahaha. Nice talking to you.

Correct. I have done the research. I've looked at the trends and seen how these things work. Have you? I didn't think so.

 

[bhamill]

He turned 21 on April 5th, so he is playing during his age-20 season. A whole 6 months older than Lafreniere. He wasn't a #1 overall pick either so there wasn't the expectation that he would play right away in the NHL. As well, the numbers I posted are 5v5 and have nothing to do with the PP.

He’s a year ahead in development and NHL team involvement. And 21 years old. And getting a different opportunity to develop, like PP time. These are real tangible facts. I didn’t say anything about draft position and neither did you. What is the relevancy to anything I said? How does that change those facts? Doesn’t.