it hasn't but what is the solution? Throw Laf back on the first line? not gonna happen with the way Vatrano is playing
Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière
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DanielBrassard
It's all so tiresome
The solution is for Lafreniere to play better. There's absolutely zero reason to break the top-6 forwards up if they are all healthy.
last night i thought goodrow was the weak link on that line and they spent too much time in our zone. but agree neither has shown much in the way of getting to the right places off the puck to get it back....both kinda unimaginative on the rush entering the zone off the puck and both pretty stationary off the puck in the zone with possession. kakko is a little better but both need to get better at feeling the play and timing moves to open ice where a puck can get to them so not an ideal pairing
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
He's been pretty good with *checks notes* Mika Zibanejad.
If you wanna say we've been hot so let's stick with what we have for a run, I absolutely agree with that. Past this playoffs, we have to stop looking for a 3C to play with Lafreniere. That mentality is a big part of the problem.
We have an $8.5m elite center who has been outstanding with Lafreniere. That's his center.
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Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
Also we have Kreider and Panarin signed long-term. One of the three has to be a RW.
Either Gallant has to get the f*** over it or trade Lafreniere. Those are your choices.
Either Gallant has to get the f*** over it or trade Lafreniere. Those are your choices.
- Sep 20, 2007
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Agreed. I would have hoped losing his spot on line 1 would put a gigantic fire under his ass. He should be playing out of his mind right now to get his job back. Instead he’s done the opposite and has regressed. I get that you have to give these kids opportunities but at the end of the day they need to go out and take what is “theirs”.
NoQuitInNewMexico
it's okay cause it's all just the way it should be
I've really liked Chytil's game in the last month or so, and maybe he'll help turn it around for them, but the "kids line" has always had bad vibes for me. Part of playing on the third line means more of your matchups should be against the Brendan Smiths and Patrik Nemeths of the league! You can still do something!
ReddestRum
Sad even when winning
- Dec 19, 2013
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100%. There are young guys out there playing on actual shit teams and still lighting it up, but here we're excusing Laf's meager contributions because he supposedly got put on a weak line? I mean.. I guess I'll add this to the excuse list right next to.. most players don't blossom until their 4th season anyway and he needs to be on PP1.
The fact of the matter is that he's an up and down player. Shows flashes of brilliance now and again, but against anyone in the top-6, he's just average and the Rangers didn't take him at #1 to be just average.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
Teams that win the Cup tend to come at you with three balanced lines. Having Lafreniere there for the playoffs can be a good thing.
I just wish we made an effort to balance it more. Instead we're just gonna throw all the kids together and slowly but steadily choke out their ice time. You know that's gonna be it.
I really wanted Laf-Strome-Kakko and Panarin-Copp-Chytil, but when the Rangers are married to an idea, they'll die so hard on that hill that even General Custer goes "damn dude..."
BTW they're absolutely resigning Strome. Don't get attached to Copp. Panarin and Strome will be broken up when one of them retires.
I just wish we made an effort to balance it more. Instead we're just gonna throw all the kids together and slowly but steadily choke out their ice time. You know that's gonna be it.
I really wanted Laf-Strome-Kakko and Panarin-Copp-Chytil, but when the Rangers are married to an idea, they'll die so hard on that hill that even General Custer goes "damn dude..."
BTW they're absolutely resigning Strome. Don't get attached to Copp. Panarin and Strome will be broken up when one of them retires.
EdJovanovski
#FreeRempe
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
Matchups are a meme. Competition blends into a blob over large samples.
EdJovanovski
#FreeRempe
Does it really? Even on those analytics player cards things they have level of competition as a category, I assumed it was considered an important metric. If Laf is playing against other teams weaker players most the time shouldn’t he have an easier time scoring than if he were on the line the other teams trying to shutdown? Obviously fewer minutes make it harder to score too, so I’m not saying he should score more but I’d think we should be seeing more flashes of him burning these shitty players
Inferno
Registered User
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
It's certainly a metric. It's not completely useless *shoots zone starts a condescending glance*. But it's not high on the list because there's a number of problems with it.
It's extremely subjective. Who's a harder opponent for Lafreniere: Ovechkin who has the puck a lot but might be the worst long-term-employed defender in NHL history or Matt Martin who shuts opponents down but has the offensive IQ of Eucalyptus? I don't think there's a definitive answer to that. Every coach approaches matchups differently and coaches do a lot of stupid things. It's very rarely 1v1, 2v2, and so on, and every team's "3rd" line has a different makeup. Pittsburgh won two Cups with a run and gun 3rd line that had Phil Kessel on it. Tampa won two Cups with a 3rd line that was basically a 4th line on steroids -- they played like a 4th line and Tampa had more pure skill players (such as Tyler Johnson) on their actual 4th line.
You can apply the same to defenders. Cale Makar is better competition than Radko Gudas in almost any measure you apply. If I were a skilled forward, I'd rather play against Cale Makar, 100%.
"Lafreniere is on the 3rd line so he's playing against 3rd lines" is 1) a massive assumption and 2) not necessarily meaningful even when it's true.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
Also, QoC and QoT put together pale in comparison to ice time. Being on the ice is the Alpha and the Omega of producing in the NHL. It's more important than talent.
McDavid had 105 points last year. If we ignore QoT entirely and assume he produces at the same rate for 13:55 per game, he ends up with 49 points. More than half of his production is ice time.
There are valid criticisms of Lafreniere. Chief among them is that he only shoots on days ending with a Z.
That being said, his TOI places a hard cap on what he can produce. If he played absolutely 100% to his potential he would still be scoring less than 40 points.
Among players averaging less than 14 minutes the last two years, he's 2nd in goals and 8th points. That's just about everyone's bottom six so that has to be, conservatively, a good 150 players.
For all the (again) valid criticisms, he's close to producing everything he can.
Stole that stat from @Doctyl
McDavid had 105 points last year. If we ignore QoT entirely and assume he produces at the same rate for 13:55 per game, he ends up with 49 points. More than half of his production is ice time.
There are valid criticisms of Lafreniere. Chief among them is that he only shoots on days ending with a Z.
That being said, his TOI places a hard cap on what he can produce. If he played absolutely 100% to his potential he would still be scoring less than 40 points.
Among players averaging less than 14 minutes the last two years, he's 2nd in goals and 8th points. That's just about everyone's bottom six so that has to be, conservatively, a good 150 players.
For all the (again) valid criticisms, he's close to producing everything he can.
Stole that stat from @Doctyl
ReddestRum
Sad even when winning
- Dec 19, 2013
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Lol. There are rookie kids right now playing LESS minutes on good teams and still blowing out Laf in all the major recorded categories. Jarvis is one of them. Lundell is another.
People in this thread say things like, "Well.. he's got the most goals in his draft class." I would hope so! He's got the most games played of his draft class. 5 more games than Stutzle and more than 40 against the rest who are near his point production (and will eventually out-produce him in less than 100 games).
The majority of top 10 rookies this season, unless they were on wholly terrible teams, started out averaging about 10-12 minutes a game. It is because they produced that they started getting prime minutes in ice time and moving up in lines. None of these kids are being given more time without them proving themselves in one way or another, but we're blaming Laf's inability to produce because he's getting less ice time than his peers and players younger than him.
Nothing has changed in today's NHL when it comes to the kids. Produce and you'll get more ice time. Produce and you'll get more PP time. Nothing Laf has shown me in two years says he deserves to be in the top-6, let alone having top minutes on PP1. The kids in the NHL who are shining have made their own luck and are being rewarded for it.
EdJovanovski
#FreeRempe
Each year Laf & Kakko started out in the top 6 & with PP time and played themselves out of those roles too. Kakko was on PP1 his very first game of his career
ReddestRum
Sad even when winning
- Dec 19, 2013
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This! Agree. It's not like they haven't been in top-6 positions before, and both really didn't do anything with it, TBH. Yet, people here acting like it's everyone else fault (the coaching staff, linemates, not top minutes, not PP minutes, etc, etc) other than, you know, the actual players in question.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
Jarvis has as much PP time as Lafreniere does in 13 fewer games.
Lundell just straight up plays two more minutes per game than Lafreniere does so I don't know where you got that one.
"Produce and you'll get more ice time."
Lafreniere was on a career-high scoring streak when he got demoted.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
It's so disingenuous to present it as "he got his chance and he didn't take it."
He had 9 points in 7 games and Gallant was like "nope, don't like that."
Correction: it was 7 in 6.
He had 9 points in 7 games and Gallant was like "nope, don't like that."
Correction: it was 7 in 6.
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EdJovanovski
#FreeRempe
The thing that makes me the most nervous about them isn't even their production, it's the fact that neither of them show any of those flashes that other young top end players around the league do. When players step on the ice for each shift they still have free will, regardless of how bad the development, coaches, management, etc are. If Laf or Kakko could deke around 3 players, get on a breakaway and dangle the goalie; they'd be doing it. They're not going to get punished for flashing skill, regardless of how much fans try to convince themselves that our coaches are such cavemen. If someone didn't know any better they would assume Laf & Kakko were 30 year old bottom 6 journeymen, not young 1st & 2nd overall picks.
HatTrick Swayze
Just Be Nice
It’s ridiculous. People seem to be rooting for them to fail at this point.
I get why the NYR are doing what they are doing, and it’s absolutely working overall for the team…at least in the short term. These decisions will only be able to be judged around 2024-25 IMO when all the dust starts settling and the existing vet core declines.
But to pretend that these two prospects are being handled anywhere near the same as the overwhelming majority of other 1OA/2OA picks across the league and across history is so disingenuous it’s hard to take seriously.
No one is saying they’ve been great and deserve unquestioned 1st line minutes. No 1st or 2nd overall pick walks onto a roster with a top 5 power play, a 50 goal scorer, and a 90 point player blocking them in the pecking order.
The guys who get picked in those ranges don’t have to beat out anyone for their roster spot, ice time, or PP time. They don’t have to worry about being good or risking being benched. They don’t have to play a lick of defense because their dogshit team doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell at making the playoffs. If Jack Hughes went 2nd instead of 1st, he wouldn’t be getting PP1 minutes and would be stuck behind Strome on the 3rd line. If he got the same 5v5 minutes as Laf and produced at the same rate he is now (which he wouldn’t with Gauthier and Goodrow), he’d have 38 points in 71 games instead of the 56 he currently does in 49. But Jack Hughes doesn’t have to play defense, he can be a -16 and no one cares he still won’t get benched for Goodrow.
Laf is disappointing, but given the situation and the treatment of him and Kakko it’s not entirely their fault. These aren’t normal circumstances for top picks and these aren’t how top picks are historically treated.
DanielBrassard
It's all so tiresome
Matt Boldy plays the exact same amount of ice time per game at 5v5 as Lafreniere and is on pace for over 40 points alone at 5v5.
EdJovanovski
#FreeRempe
Do you really believe that? People want their favorite teams first lottery picks basically in franchise history to suck? I don't get how wanting more out of them or being disappointed when these guys were considered shoe ins to put up 70+pts their rookie season; means that the person is rooting against them. It's like we aren't allowed to criticize them when they are massively underperforming their pre-draft hype. Go back and read those threads about Laf & Kakko as prospects, it's absolutely depressing.
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