Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[bleedblue94]

My issue w laffy is the comments and statements about him defending him are what you would hear for a top ten pick, not for an undisputed 1oa pick. The standards are high bc they should be. It feels like members of this board are uncomfortable keeping those high standards since we have rarely been able to draft at the top, but expectations of laffy SHOULD be high. We are three years in already, we are past coddling w this kid...

 

[McRanger92]

My issue w laffy is the comments and statements about him defending him are what you would hear for a top ten pick, not for an undisputed 1oa pick. The standards are high bc they should be. It feels like members of this board are uncomfortable keeping those high standards since we have rarely been able to draft at the top, but expectations of laffy SHOULD be high. We are three years in already, we are past coddling w this kid...

I think everyone is disappointed in how his career has started. Both sides share blame. But it was the right pick when it was made and the past is the past. He’s 21. His career is just getting started, he still has every chance and potential to be a very good core player for us. The arguing on both sides over the who, what, and why is getting stale though.

 

[bleedblue94]

I think everyone is disappointed in how his career has started. Both sides share blame. But it was the right pick when it was made and the past is the past. He’s 21. His career is just getting started, he still has every chance and potential to be a very good core player for us. The arguing on both sides over the who, what, and why is getting stale though.

Meh


Also, remember when people laughed at the idea of trading 1oa for 3oa and 5oa?

Yawn...

 

[RangersFan1994]

 

[duhmetreE]

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I've been a major detractor on Zibs 5v5 game.

I bring up this point as well. You can't hate on a ELC when your #1C is doing the same thing. That's the double standard again. We sometimes demand more from the kids than the actual fat cat$. Zibs has been over rated IMO. Hoping Lavi gets more out of him..

 

[NickyFotiu]

He’s also got a high end backhand, which is really hard to track for a goalie.

His backhand is one of his most impressive assets. I did wonder if the curve or lie on his stick makes some others things difficult for him.

 

[DanielBrassard]

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Now do assists

 

[NickyFotiu]

My issue w laffy is the comments and statements about him defending him are what you would hear for a top ten pick, not for an undisputed 1oa pick. The standards are high bc they should be. It feels like members of this board are uncomfortable keeping those high standards since we have rarely been able to draft at the top, but expectations of laffy SHOULD be high. We are three years in already, we are past coddling w this kid...

I can blame him if he doesn't get in great shape or improve in other ways. I can't blame him for being drafted #1. I can't hold that against him.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

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so you're going towards this direction huh?

well all righty then. let's go back to laffy's 19 ev goal season - his personal high so far in his brief career. took 79 games to get that done. from that same season:

schmaltz 63 games played/19 ev goals
atkinson 73/18
point 66/18
tom wilson 78/18
nico 70/17
evander kane 43/17
bread 75/17 (this one caught me by surprise)

so yeah he had more ev goals than the ones above. more than benn, mercer, stootz, chandler stephenson, and so on.

 

[17futurecap]

Laf has 1 more power play point in his Rangers career than Colin Blackwell as a Ranger.

@Machinehead wasn’t lying all year last season when he kept posting he’s one of the worst PP players in the league.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Fans should stop trying to spin stats for good or bad. You watched him play. You know when he has been good (last 30 games and playoffs in 2022) and when he has not been good (much of 2023 and playoffs).

 

[SA16]

Laf has 1 more power play point in his Rangers career than Colin Blackwell as a Ranger.

@Machinehead wasn’t lying all year last season when he kept posting he’s one of the worst PP players in the league.

Well he’s likely not one of the worst pp players in the league. That’s just misusing stats and context

 

[Machinehead]

Well he’s likely not one of the worst pp players in the league. That’s just misusing stats and context

He has 6 points in 267 minutes. That's 133 full powerplays.

That's the kind of output most players outperform by happenstance.

You're right. He's not one of the worst in the league. He's one of the worst I've ever encountered in my nearly ten-year periphery of measuring hockey stats.

 

[bhamill]

He has 6 points in 267 minutes. That's 133 full powerplays.

That's the kind of output most players outperform by happenstance.

You're right. He's not one of the worst in the league. He's one of the worst I've ever encountered in my nearly ten-year periphery of measuring hockey stats.

Hahaha. Not all pp minutes are created equal. The duration of a powerplay shift makes a huge difference. The second pp unit usually barely gets set up time. 267 minutes in 20-45 second chunks (mostly starting outside of the O zone), with Trouba running the power play, is not exactly the same as 267 minutes in 1:15 to 1:40 chunks (starting often in the O zone) with Fox running the powerplay. Do a comparison only counting points scored in the first 27.5 seconds of a powerplay shift, even with o zone starts, regardless of the QB, and I’m betting he doesn’t look so bad. hahaha.

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

Fans should stop trying to spin stats for good or bad. You watched him play. You know when he has been good (last 30 games and playoffs in 2022) and when he has not been good (much of 2023 and playoffs).

The entire team in front of Igor was basically dogshit in the 2023 playoffs. Laffy included, but still.

 

[Machinehead]

Hahaha. Not all pp minutes are created equal. The duration of a powerplay shift makes a huge difference. The second pp unit usually barely gets set up time. 267 minutes in 20-45 second chunks (mostly starting outside of the O zone), with Trouba running the power play, is not exactly the same as 267 minutes in 1:15 to 1:40 chunks (starting often in the O zone) with Fox running the powerplay. Do a comparison only counting points scored in the first 27.5 seconds of a powerplay shift, even with o zone starts, regardless of the QB, and I’m betting he doesn’t look so bad. hahaha.

I can't measure powerplay points scored at particular times in the powerplay.

What I can do is give you the list of 4th liners and guys not in the league anymore that scored at a better rate with probably even worse usage.

If Lafreniere had a below average output, I would absolutely buy the usage argument. It's below average like Peter Dinklage is below average in height.

 

[bhamill]

I can't measure powerplay points scored at particular times in the powerplay.

What I can do is give you the list of 4th liners and guys not in the league anymore that scored at a better rate with probably even worse usage.

If Lafreniere had a below average output, I would absolutely buy the usage argument. It's below average like Peter Dinklage is below average in height.

I’m sure you take my point. No one is going to look good, and most will look very bad, in powerplay stats when their power play shift time is limited to an average of around 30 seconds.
If we want to see what he can do on the powerplay he’s got to get those pp1 shifts or at least pp2 (pp1B) shifts that go a min. Till then we can say whatever we want, but it’s a recipe for “failure.” And I’m certainly not guaranteeing he sets the world on fire immediately, but I’m betting he doesnt look half bad. I’d like to find out.

 

[NickyFotiu]

The entire team in front of Igor was basically dogshit in the 2023 playoffs. Laffy included, but still.

I do not totally agree with that. Some were much worse than others. Laffy played very well in the 2022 playoffs. Laffy played poorly in the 2023 playoffs. Regardless my main point is people should stop spinning stats for good and for bad. We all saw him play. I was very happy with him in the last 30 games of 2022 and his playoffs. I was very underwhelmed by him in 2023. Its not about stats for me. 2022 is over. 2023 is over. I want to see Laf dedicate this summer by spending 4-5 hours a day on his skating and fitness level. I want him to come in to camp feeling 25% faster than he did in 2023. I did that over a summer as a high school kid. Laf can do that as well. It comes down to how much does he want it.

 

[McRanger92]

I can't measure powerplay points scored at particular times in the powerplay.

What I can do is give you the list of 4th liners and guys not in the league anymore that scored at a better rate with probably even worse usage.

If Lafreniere had a below average output, I would absolutely buy the usage argument. It's below average like Peter Dinklage is below average in height.

You watch the games. You know on a good day Lafreniere gets 30 seconds a powerplay on a unit with 3 21 year old's, Goodrow and Trouba that cant get in the zone or win a faceoff. I wouldn't call that the best situation for producing, would you? Context matters.

 

[SA16]

He has 6 points in 267 minutes. That's 133 full powerplays.

That's the kind of output most players outperform by happenstance.

You're right. He's not one of the worst in the league. He's one of the worst I've ever encountered in my nearly ten-year periphery of measuring hockey stats.

It is just the role. In 21-22 Laf had 2 PPP, Kakko had 2 PPP, Chytil had 1 PPP. Last year Laf had 4. Kakko had 3. Chytil had 3. (5v4 only). You can not make a statement saying he is not good on the PP considering every single player to play on that unit has the same terrible production. That is what happens when the usage is always start second and get minimal ice time at the end. Since 21-22 he leads all Rangers regular PP2 players in 5v4 points. None of them score. You can either assume somehow it is the worst unit in league history with a bunch of guys who are incompetent on the PP or that the way they are used makes it extremely difficult to put up points. Second one is clearly more likely than the first.

 

[Machinehead]

I’m sure you take my point. No one is going to look good, and most will look very bad, in powerplay stats when their power play shift time is limited to an average of around 30 seconds.
If we want to see what he can do on the powerplay he’s got to get those pp1 shifts or at least pp2 (pp1B) shifts that go a min. Till then we can say whatever we want, but it’s a recipe for “failure.” And I’m certainly not guaranteeing he sets the world on fire immediately, but I’m betting he doesnt look half bad. I’d like to find out.

You watch the games. You know on a good day Lafreniere gets 30 seconds a powerplay on a unit with 3 21 year old's, Goodrow and Trouba that cant get in the zone or win a faceoff. I wouldn't call that the best situation for producing, would you? Context matters.

I think my point is being missed.

I just ran the data on EvolvingHockey.

Since 2008 (the furthest back I can go), 806 players have played at least 267 minutes on the powerplay. That's everyone who's played as much as Lafreniere has.

Out of 806, his 6 total points rank 806th.

Included in this sample, Luca Sbisa has 12 points. Chris Neil has 12. Miles Wood has 16. Jimmy Vesey has 17. Jeff Halpern has 17. Cal Clutterbuck has 18. Marc Staal has 18. Leo Komarov has 21. Taylor Pyatt has 19. Jesse Puljujarvi has 15.

This is a circus of busts, honest-to-god 4th liners, and defensive defensemen. They all have more powerplay points than Lafreniere in the same context.

Context matters, but he's literally the worst regular powerplay player since 2008. To say he needs to improve on the powerplay beyond how he's used is a take so cold it could freeze Hell.

 

[Machinehead]

It is just the role. In 21-22 Laf had 2 PPP, Kakko had 2 PPP, Chytil had 1 PPP. Last year Laf had 4. Kakko had 3. Chytil had 3. (5v4 only). You can not make a statement saying he is not good on the PP considering every single player to play on that unit has the same terrible production. That is what happens when the usage is always start second and get minimal ice time at the end. Since 21-22 he leads all Rangers regular PP2 players in 5v4 points. None of them score. You can either assume somehow it is the worst unit in league history with a bunch of guys who are incompetent on the PP or that the way they are used makes it extremely difficult to put up points. Second one is clearly more likely than the first.

Look at the list I just posted and tell me which guys you think were on the first unit.

 

[McRanger92]

I think my point is being missed.

I just ran the data on EvolvingHockey.

Since 2008 (the furthest back I can go), 806 players have played at least 267 minutes on the powerplay. That's everyone who's played as much as Lafreniere has.

Out of 806, his 6 total points rank 806th.

Included in this sample, Luca Sbisa has 12 points. Chris Neil has 12. Miles Wood has 16. Jimmy Vesey has 17. Jeff Halpern has 17. Cal Clutterbuck has 18. Marc Staal has 18. Leo Komarov has 21. Taylor Pyatt has 19. Jesse Puljujarvi has 15.

This is a circus of busts, honest-to-god 4th liners, and defensive defensemen. They all have more powerplay points than Lafreniere in the same context.

Context matters, but he's literally the worst regular powerplay player since 2008. To say he needs to improve on the powerplay beyond how he's used is a take so cold it could freeze Hell.

Who said he didnt need to improve? My issue is with the people who say he can't or won't.

 

[Machinehead]

Who said he didnt need to improve? My issue is with the people who say he can't or won't.

I don't think he can't or won't.

My issue is with people saying it's just usage. It's not. Not even at ES. He played 15:13 a game this past year. Those are top six minutes. He just needs to be better.

 

[SA16]

For reference here, since 21-22, 42 forwards have played between 1.00 and 1.50 minutes/game at 5v4. Laf is in the middle at 1.25. Laf has 6 points in that time frame. The median is 7.5. Hardly the worst production around.