Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[ReddestRum]

At the end of 3 years, CK had 86 season points and Laf, 91 at the end of his. You should also probably add that after 3 seasons, Laf played 47 more NHL games than CK (who opted to play in the AHL during the lockout). 47 more games and a whopping 5 more points.

If I also remember correctly, CK's first NHL goal came as a game-winner against the Sens who were up 3-2 in the series to us. Imagine your first NHL goal is the goal that helps stave off elimination for a Game 7 win.

I know who has been more memorable in playoff appearances between the two.

Why do you guys keep trying to make the kid look much better than he is? Especially comparing him to others like he's always better. Like... why?

 

[Barnaby]

Are people still on move Chytil to wing? Because that bit is old and tired.

I’m not on the train to it, but I’d entertain it. It means a budding Chytil getting more ice time with better players. Would it be a bad thing if he were Buch 2.0? He looked good with Zib and CK when he first came up. Lots of great players have swapped to wing at times.

Maybe it becomes a late game strategy for a different look.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

At the end of 3 years, CK had 86 season points and Laf, 91 at the end of his. You should also probably add that after 3 seasons, Laf played 47 more NHL games than CK (who opted to play in the AHL during the lockout). 47 more games and a whopping 5 more points.

If I also remember correctly, CK's first NHL goal came as a game-winner against the Sens who were up 3-2 in the series to us. Imagine your first NHL goal is the goal that helps stave off elimination for a Game 7 win.

I know who has been more memorable in playoff appearances between the two.

Why do you guys keep trying to make the kid look much better than he is? Especially comparing him to others like he's always better. Like... why?

Wasn't kreider like 21 when he joined the roster? I kinda remember being disappointed his first regular season when he came back from the ahl after he looked good in playoffs the previous year.

 

[ReddestRum]

Wasn't kreider like 21 when he joined the roster?

Yeah. I think. Got drafted in college and opted to finish at least after his junior year it looks like.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

At the end of 3 years, CK had 86 season points and Laf, 91 at the end of his. You should also probably add that after 3 seasons, Laf played 47 more NHL games than CK (who opted to play in the AHL during the lockout). 47 more games and a whopping 5 more points.

If I also remember correctly, CK's first NHL goal came as a game-winner against the Sens who were up 3-2 in the series to us. Imagine your first NHL goal is the goal that helps stave off elimination for a Game 7 win.

I know who has been more memorable in playoff appearances between the two.

Why do you guys keep trying to make the kid look much better than he is? Especially comparing him to others like he's always better. Like... why?

47 games isnt really anything that crazy lol. Especially since the 1st half was during Covid times. No team workouts, no training together, no skating together. Barely any preseason and jumping into a season vs the same half dozen teams. Great way to start a NHL career.

Oh and like others said, he was 3 years older lmao.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Yeah. I think. Got drafted in college and opted to finish at least after his junior year it looks like.

Thought he was drafted out of high school then went to college anyway.

 

[IDvsEGO]

At the end of 3 years, CK had 86 season points and Laf, 91 at the end of his. You should also probably add that after 3 seasons, Laf played 47 more NHL games than CK (who opted to play in the AHL during the lockout). 47 more games and a whopping 5 more points.

If I also remember correctly, CK's first NHL goal came as a game-winner against the Sens who were up 3-2 in the series to us. Imagine your first NHL goal is the goal that helps stave off elimination for a Game 7 win.

I know who has been more memorable in playoff appearances between the two.

Why do you guys keep trying to make the kid look much better than he is? Especially comparing him to others like he's always better. Like... why?

Because you're comparing a 21-24 year old to an 18-21 year old.
When you compare 21 year old seasons, laf heavily out produces Kreider.
At 21 years of age, following a solid playoff run, Kreider couldn't stay in the lineup, and played in only 23 games. He put up 3 points.
At 21 years of age, following a solid playoff run, Laf was a full time regular in the lineup, playing 4th most ES time, and had the 6th most points on the team at ES, oh AND out produced a 32 year old Chris Kreider at even strength (both in straight points and p/60)

Im not saying Laf wow'd anyone in his first three years. Im not saying Laf is going to be a HOF player.
I am saying that if you compare Kreider to laf you need to compare apples to apples AND Laf likely ends up with a significantly better career.

If Lavi isn't worried about shaking up the lines, Laf likely sits in the top 6, and CK can either play RW or move to the third line. Im not concerned about laf producing.

 

[bhamill]

Wasn't kreider like 21 when he joined the roster? I kinda remember being disappointed his first regular season when he came back from the ahl after he looked good in playoffs the previous year.

Kreider played his first regular season games with the NYR in his D+4. Laf’s NEXT season will be his D+4, and I guarantee he tops CK’s 3 points in 23 games.
It’s disingenuous to try to compare Laf’s D+1 thru 3 to CKs D+4 thru 6. Let’s see where Laf is at the end of his D+6 if we really want to make a fair and rational comparison. I mean if we really want to have a conversation and not just further a flawed narrative.

 

[bhamill]

Because you're comparing a 21-24 year old to an 18-21 year old.
When you compare 21 year old seasons, laf heavily out produces Kreider.
At 21 years of age, following a solid playoff run, Kreider couldn't stay in the lineup, and played in only 23 games. He put up 3 points.
At 21 years of age, following a solid playoff run, Laf was a full time regular in the lineup, playing 4th most ES time, and had the 6th most points on the team at ES, oh AND out produced a 32 year old Chris Kreider at even strength (both in straight points and p/60)

Im not saying Laf wow'd anyone in his first three years. Im not saying Laf is going to be a HOF player.
I am saying that if you compare Kreider to laf you need to compare apples to apples AND Laf likely ends up with a significantly better career.

If Lavi isn't worried about shaking up the lines, Laf likely sits in the top 6, and CK can either play RW or move to the third line. Im not concerned about laf producing.

Also Chris turned 22 during his D+4, Laf will be turning 22 just as his D+4 starts. its easy to try to make it look like Chris was just a 21 year old scoring 3 points, but he was 21-22. If Laf scores just 3 points in his D+4, like CK did, the board will melt completely down. Hahaha.

47 games isnt really anything that crazy lol. Especially since the 1st half was during Covid times. No team workouts, no training together, no skating together. Barely any preseason and jumping into a season vs the same half dozen teams. Great way to start a NHL career.

Oh and like others said, he was 3 years older lmao.

Hey, why let reality intrude into a good narrative? Hahaha.

 

[Synergy27]

I beat up Laf more than anyone here but this whole Kreider comp is just absurd.

 

[bhamill]

You wanna say it’s mental gymnastics but you’re also not refuting the actual point we’re making.

Because logically, the point isn’t refutable.

 

[SA16]

Because you're comparing a 21-24 year old to an 18-21 year old.
When you compare 21 year old seasons, laf heavily out produces Kreider.
At 21 years of age, following a solid playoff run, Kreider couldn't stay in the lineup, and played in only 23 games. He put up 3 points.
At 21 years of age, following a solid playoff run, Laf was a full time regular in the lineup, playing 4th most ES time, and had the 6th most points on the team at ES, oh AND out produced a 32 year old Chris Kreider at even strength (both in straight points and p/60)

Im not saying Laf wow'd anyone in his first three years. Im not saying Laf is going to be a HOF player.
I am saying that if you compare Kreider to laf you need to compare apples to apples AND Laf likely ends up with a significantly better career.

If Lavi isn't worried about shaking up the lines, Laf likely sits in the top 6, and CK can either play RW or move to the third line. Im not concerned about laf producing.

Comparing Kreider to Laf Age 21 season is not apples to apples in the first place. Has there ever been a 1 overall forward in the last 50 years that was not a full time regular in an NHL lineup at age 21? At 19 overall none of O'Brien, E. Svechnikov, Rychel, Kreider, MacMillan, Korpikoski, Koreis were full time players and that's 7 of 11 forwards going back 20 years. The expectation is that 1 overall player is ready at a younger age and of course is expected to be a full time contributor by 21. That is not at all the expectation for someone taken 19.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Comparing Kreider to Laf Age 21 season is not apples to apples in the first place. Has there ever been a 1 overall forward in the last 50 years that was not a full time regular in an NHL lineup at age 21? At 19 overall none of O'Brien, E. Svechnikov, Rychel, Kreider, MacMillan, Korpikoski, Koreis were full time players and that's 7 of 11 forwards going back 20 years. The expectation is that 1 overall player is ready at a younger age and of course is expected to be a full time contributor by 21. That is not at all the expectation for someone taken 19.

Sure but Laf was a full time regular at age 21.
He was 5th in total ice time, 6th in forward production at even strength.
He just happened to be blocked on the power play. Which we’ve complained about for all 3 of the kids at this point.

You compare similar ages, because a 21 year old is more physically developed than an 18 year old.
Guys straight out of college are expected to be far more productive. So it’s an apples to apples.

 

[SA16]

Sure but Laf was a full time regular at age 21.
He was 5th in total ice time, 6th in forward production at even strength.
He just happened to be blocked on the power play. Which we’ve complained about for all 3 of the kids at this point.

You compare similar ages, because a 21 year old is more physically developed than an 18 year old.
Guys straight out of college are expected to be far more productive. So it’s an apples to apples.

He was 8/9 in 5v5 pts/60 among the 9 players with 500+ minutes (Kreider 7th), and 8/9 among the same guys in 5v5 xG% (Kreider 2nd)

 

[IDvsEGO]

He was 8/9 in 5v5 pts/60 among the 9 players with 500+ minutes (Kreider 7th), and 8/9 among the same guys in 5v5 xG% (Kreider 2nd)

And here we go with 5v5 instead of even strength

 

[Ruggs225]

I really think some people here want the kid to fail so they can be “right”. This thread is just disgusting and embarrassing with the hate on the kid.

 

[SA16]

And here we go with 5v5 instead of even strength

If you are using even strength stats you are wasting your time even looking up the stats in the first place.

 

[mas0764]

At the end of 3 years

Well we can skip the rest of the post after those 6 words.

Kreider was 23 not 21.

Huge difference.

I beat up Laf more than anyone here but this whole Kreider comp is just absurd.

Especially the really absurd part about him not equaling "half" of Kreider's career.

 

[mas0764]

Comparing Kreider to Laf Age 21 season is not apples to apples in the first place. Has there ever been a 1 overall forward in the last 50 years that was not a full time regular in an NHL lineup at age 21?

But the argument isn't whether Laf as a 1OA is disappointing; we all agree that he is.

The comparison to Kreider is being discussed because some people are saying that Lafreniere won't be as good as Kreider regardless of their draft positions. Take draft position out of it.

If we are comparing Kreider to Lafreniere as prospects/players then their production at similar ages is the most relevant.

Lafreniere blows Kreider out of the water.

 

[Quinnisinoverhishead]

Since Lafreniere came into the league he is 6th on our team in pts/60 5v5. Slightly ahead of Kreider.
Keep in mind these are peak Kreider years and teenage years for Laffy. Kreider was still in college for these three seasons. The fact some individuals are comparing the two is comical and delusional.
Lafreniere has progressed slower than anticipated... but I have no doubt he will be a far superior player to Kreider, starting next season.

 

[bhamill]

Comparing Kreider to Laf Age 21 season is not apples to apples in the first place. Has there ever been a 1 overall forward in the last 50 years that was not a full time regular in an NHL lineup at age 21? At 19 overall none of O'Brien, E. Svechnikov, Rychel, Kreider, MacMillan, Korpikoski, Koreis were full time players and that's 7 of 11 forwards going back 20 years. The expectation is that 1 overall player is ready at a younger age and of course is expected to be a full time contributor by 21. That is not at all the expectation for someone taken 19.

Sure comparing draft positions and progress is a totally reasonable thing to discuss. And I think you'll notice that NOBODY has tried to say Laf hasn't disappointed relative to that....
BUT, that's not what was proclaimed. What was said is that Laf isn't one thousandth the player CK is, is a journeyman (at 21), that we'd all sign up for Laf to have HALF the career that Kreider has had and that because Laf's D+1-3 are inferior to CK's D+4-6, he is and will remain the inferior player. All of which are pretty much straight up nonsense.

 

[bhamill]

If you are using even strength stats you are wasting your time even looking up the stats in the first place.

How about "in scoring excluding the power play" since that is the place where their ice times, and their scoring, diverge drastically?

Well we can skip the rest of the post after those 6 words.

Kreider was 23 not 21.

Huge difference.



Especially the really absurd part about him not equaling "half" of Kreider's career.

Kreider was actually 24 at the end of his first 3 regular seasons. He started the 3rd season at 23. His birthday is about 6 months later than Laf's. relative to draft eligibility.

 

[JHS]

At the end of 3 years, CK had 86 season points and Laf, 91 at the end of his. You should also probably add that after 3 seasons, Laf played 47 more NHL games than CK (who opted to play in the AHL during the lockout). 47 more games and a whopping 5 more points.

If I also remember correctly, CK's first NHL goal came as a game-winner against the Sens who were up 3-2 in the series to us. Imagine your first NHL goal is the goal that helps stave off elimination for a Game 7 win.

I know who has been more memorable in playoff appearances between the two.

Why do you guys keep trying to make the kid look much better than he is? Especially comparing him to others like he's always better. Like... why?

What no one says when they compare him to CK is-- at the time,Chris was viewed as a fringe bust and definately an underperforming prospect-- it's only till recently he's changed that narrative around. So essentially those who think they ae helping Laf by using the comparison are just actually arguing he's slightly better than a fringe bust, underperforming player.

 

[bhamill]

What no one says when they compare him to CK is-- at the time,Chris was viewed as a fringe bust and definately an underperforming prospect-- it's only till recently he's changed that narrative around. So essentially those who think they ae helping Laf by using the comparison are just actually arguing he's slightly better than a fringe bust, underperforming player.

Or a 50+ goal scorer... hahaha.
I think that people use Chris as an example of a late bloomer as far as his NHL career. He made a splash in his first playoffs, but he didn't really start showing anything on the scoreboard till his D+5 or 6. As far as THIS conversation, I've merely pointed out that people sayong Laf has had a worse post draft career thus far, and are then extrapolating to say he will never be half the player Kreider is, are WAY off of the money. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Ruggs225]

But the argument isn't whether Laf as a 1OA is disappointing; we all agree that he is.

The comparison to Kreider is being discussed because some people are saying that Lafreniere won't be as good as Kreider regardless of their draft positions. Take draft position out of it.

If we are comparing Kreider to Lafreniere as prospects/players then their production at similar ages is the most relevant.

Lafreniere blows Kreider out of the water.

The irony is that many people, including myself, complained alot about kreider over the years. How he always left u wanting more and never maximized his potential. And the fact he disappears for games at a time.