Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[ThirdEye]

After seeing so many players on other teams go from zero to hero in their mid-20's I will quit this team if they trade Laf (especially if it's for a rental or some other nonsense). Instead, the Rangers need to use his struggles to their advantage and extend him for as long as possible and for as little as possible.

 

[jerseyjinx94]

It isn’t that I dislike Laf either. It’s the fact that there are some here who really need to hold on to this notion that it’s only the organization that sucks and the second Laf goes somewhere else he’s going to ram it down our throats and turn into the he next Joe Thornton, and they basically act like Laf can do no wrong, he oozes untapped potential the rest of us fools just can’t see, and it’s all down to the evil NYR anti-development agenda and our inept coaches for using him wrong.

I’d be willing to put a long wager on Laf being an “official” bust 7 years from now. It’s as simple as that. I wanted him to be a star or at least a fixture. I like him - the Off The Boards segments and behind the scenes stuff make him seem like a good kid. I just don’t believe in him anymore. I don’t see any thing in his game that makes me say he’s going to produce, he’s going to be a player, he’s going to figure it out. I just see people telling me how good his EV production is and how that’s significant. I just don’t see it. That’s the problem. I don’t believe he has the tools a small handful claim they still see and no matter how I frame that, I get EV point totals and “well he’s got the same EV points as Trochek so… clearly Laf isn’t the problem and it’s the coach”. I’m tired of clinging to marginal moral victories like “well he was really open but Bread didn’t feed him” or “he has as many EV points as Trochek” as the proof that this kid actually has a single tool in his toolbox that will make him a successful NHL top line forward.

I think you have this backwards. I don’t see anyone saying Laf can do no wrong. I see a bunch of people not believing in his potential, giving up on him, wanting to trade him, and calling him a bust, when he hasn't even finished his ELC, and a whole other group of people saying yeah, he’s been disappointing, but let’s give him a chance and a little more time. You’re changing the narrative completely.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

I think you have this backwards. I don’t see anyone saying Laf can do no wrong. I see a bunch of people not believing in his potential, giving up on him, wanting to trade him, and calling him a bust, when he hasn't even finished his ELC, and a whole other group of people saying yeah, he’s been disappointing, but let’s give him a chance and a little more time. You’re changing the narrative completely.

Bingo bingo bingo.

 

[Shadowtron]

What constitutes an "official bust"? Serious question, what are the likely criteria? I imagine career bottom six, even a very effective one, COULD be considered a huge bust for a 1OA, How about a second line two way 60 point guy? Or a first line player but not elite, or allstar level? Not being facetious, I've wondered what people will consider a bust in the end, and I'm one of the people who considers you pretty level headed.

This is just my opinion…but I’d be fine with him being a bonafide first line player. If he tops out as a productive second line player, I’d be disappointed but wouldn’t consider him a bust necessarily. Third line mucker? Bust. Right now…he’s been a massive disappointment.

 

[bhamill]

I think you have this backwards. I don’t see anyone saying Laf can do no wrong. I see a bunch of people not believing in his potential, giving up on him, wanting to trade him, and calling him a bust, when he hasn't even finished his ELC, and a whole other group of people saying yeah, he’s been disappointing, but let’s give him a chance and a little more time. You’re changing the narrative completely.

Yeah, that's the camp that I'm in, less than 180 regular games into his career, I'm not ready to trade him for "whatever we can get." I've seen good things from him and even while struggling MIGHTILY this season he still manages to get enough points that he tracks decently on this team considering usage. I think when I point out that last bit people mistake it for me arguing that he's playing well when what I'm saying is even when he's struggling he's keeping pace with most of the team, scoring wise. To me that shows potential for when he gets it together.

This is just my opinion…but I’d be fine with him being a bonafide first line player. If he tops out as a productive second line player, I’d be disappointed but wouldn’t consider him a bust necessarily. Third line mucker? Bust. Right now…he’s been a massive disappointment.

Fair. Thanks for chiming in.

 

[OthmannOut]

Laf realllllly could have used some points these last couple games, but alas, we are still in the midst of what is surely the bottom of the Lafreniere market cycle.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

1. He's not very good right now.
2. They aren't trading him unless he's part of a super-duper-mega-blockbuster deal.

 

[bbny]

Remember last season when everyone was telling us how exemplary Lafreniere was at finding loose pucks that were planted literally at the doorstep for him to gently sweep into the net with no one within feet of him and how that was a big reason why he was such a prolific and efficient goal scorer at 5v5? Whoops, guess the Rangers development staff claimed another victim because that skillset has disappeared, imagine that.

Lol I remember that. Probably a third of his goals last year were goals a mini mite could have scored. The 19 goal total was incredibly fictituous, and it’s playing out that way now. Same thing is happening this year with inflated points. Half of them are secondary assists. So he’s pacing 33 points and it’s inflated. Not good. These kinds of goals and points are fleeting. Not something that can be banked on getting year over year.

 

[LokiDog]

What constitutes an "official bust"? Serious question, what are the likely criteria? I imagine career bottom six, even a very effective one, COULD be considered a huge bust for a 1OA, How about a second line two way 60 point guy? Or a first line player but not elite, or allstar, level? Not being facetious, I've wondered what people will consider a bust in the end, and I'm one of the people who considers you pretty level headed.

For me? I put “official” in quotes on purpose because there’s no such thing and it’s subjective to the point that all I meant was that enough time would have passed for a consensus opinion to be accepted. Regarding your scenarios, for me, I’d say a ~60 point top six player is a disappointment but certainly not a bust. A 50ish point winger in the middle six, especially if they’re not a big PK contributor or something like that, I’d say is getting closer to bust territory for a 1OA, though still not a bad player.

If 55 points is the ballpark of your career high and you’re not killing penalties and matching up against other team’s top lines defensively, that’s a pretty poor return on the 1OA pick, but still managing to have a career as a fringe second liner. Anything less is a bust for the draft pick.

 

[bhamill]

Lol I remember that. Probably a third of his goals last year were goals a mini mite could have scored. The 19 goal total was incredibly fictituous, and it’s playing out that way now. Same thing is happening this year with inflated points. Half of them are secondary assists. So he’s pacing 33 points and it’s inflated. Not good. These kinds of goals and points are fleeting. Not something that can be banked on getting year over year.

Weird how every year of his career his points are "inflated" somehow. Almost seems like it isn't chance. I mean obviously he is just weirdly lucky, that's what I see when I watch him play, loads and loads of luck. Hahaha. Obviously I'm being facetious.
Going to places where you can get tap ins is a skill. Second assists are not exclusively "luck." It's a skill to see the play unfolding and get it to the player who is going to get that first assist. You know what? That may be why they count the same...

For me? I put “official” in quotes on purpose because there’s no such thing and it’s subjective to the point that all I meant was that enough time would have passed for a consensus opinion to be accepted. Regarding your scenarios, for me, I’d say a ~60 point top six player is a disappointment but certainly not a bust. A 50ish point winger in the middle six, especially if they’re not a big PK contributor or something like that, I’d say is getting closer to bust territory for a 1OA, though still not a bad player.

If 55 points is the ballpark of your career high and you’re not killing penalties and matching up against other team’s top lines defensively, that’s a pretty poor return on the 1OA pick, but still managing to have a career as a fringe second liner. Anything less is a bust for the draft pick.

Fair take. Yeah, I meant for you (and I wouldn't mind seeing other people's opinions either), I know its subjective, that's why I was asking. Thanks.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Lol I remember that. Probably a third of his goals last year were goals a mini mite could have scored. The 19 goal total was incredibly fictituous, and it’s playing out that way now. Same thing is happening this year with inflated points. Half of them are secondary assists. So he’s pacing 33 points and it’s inflated. Not good. These kinds of goals and points are fleeting. Not something that can be banked on getting year over year.

Yeah, and I get it people want to hang their hats on something, we are all yearning for the guy who everyone who analyzes prospects said was in a tier just below Auston Matthews as a 1st overall pick. But so far it's just not happening.

 

[mas0764]

But wait all the development experts on here said if he just gets more ice time and gifted powerplay time everything would be fixed???!! It’s almost like they knew less than the NHL coaches they so often attack for not knowing anything!

No, that's not what was said.

It was said that he needs the time to develop.

Which is true.

Not that "in two games everything is better."

 

[Beer League Sniper]

Pre-draft, one of this kid's greatest attributes was his compete level. I just don't see it right now. Whether it's been coached out of him, or his confidence is just shot, I have no idea. Laf just looks defeated out there. Complete passenger. No aggression or killer instinct with the puck on his stick.

He also looks.... weak? I know he's only 21, but I haven't seen any noticeable improvement in his strength or explosiveness. Does he train with Prentiss? I know a lot of our guys do, but some don't.

 

[JHS]

It’s pretty clear when I watch the game as I’m in the GDT and I’ve been around these boards long enough that I think people know me mostly as being level headed. Laf didn’t make a couple of nice plays. He had a couple of moments where he looked like an NHL player who knew what to do and where to go. A nice play is Kakko’s pass to Zib and Zib’s finish. A nice play is either of Miller’s recent highlight reel goals. Laf has had a couple of glimpses in his top six stint where he looks AS competent in the offensive zone as Barclay Goodrow.

And I think this is actually THE number one issue I have - we are so desperate for the kids NOT to be busts that we extrapolate things like “skating in the right direction” or “being open, but Panarin didn’t pass to him” into “a couple of nice plays”. Laf hasn’t made a nice play all damn year. He occasionally steps out of his fugue state, 10 steps behind the play, comatose behavior and looks like an average NHL middle six body. We celebrate when it happens like “oh… oh… signs of life! Look at that, Laf read a pass and picked it off… he’s coming along!”

It isn’t that I dislike Laf either. It’s the fact that there are some here who really need to hold on to this notion that it’s only the organization that sucks and the second Laf goes somewhere else he’s going to ram it down our throats and turn into the he next Joe Thornton, and they basically act like Laf can do no wrong, he oozes untapped potential the rest of us fools just can’t see, and it’s all down to the evil NYR anti-development agenda and our inept coaches for using him wrong.

I’d be willing to put a long wager on Laf being an “official” bust 7 years from now. It’s as simple as that. I wanted him to be a star or at least a fixture. I like him - the Off The Boards segments and behind the scenes stuff make him seem like a good kid. I just don’t believe in him anymore. I don’t see any thing in his game that makes me say he’s going to produce, he’s going to be a player, he’s going to figure it out. I just see people telling me how good his EV production is and how that’s significant. I just don’t see it. That’s the problem. I don’t believe he has the tools a small handful claim they still see and no matter how I frame that, I get EV point totals and “well he’s got the same EV points as Trochek so… clearly Laf isn’t the problem and it’s the coach”. I’m tired of clinging to marginal moral victories like “well he was really open but Bread didn’t feed him” or “he has as many EV points as Trochek” as the proof that this kid actually has a single tool in his toolbox that will make him a successful NHL top line forward.

Great response. This is also why I come across as tough on those that want to only make excuses for him. It's really not about his progress or lack there of- its far more about patience and accountability. Probably the most accurate evaluation of Laf is, his current performance is far below NHL standards and maybe he will get more involved moving forward."

The attempts to blame coaches, usage, line combos whatever it might be, often read as just that- excuses. I know others see them as valid reasons for why he is not doing well but most number one overall picks are not on good teams, surrounded by terrible talent and still show something. So if we want to be honest, Laf's " reasons" for being bad are irrelevant- he's just not good right now.

He has 18 points this season. That's it. That would be bad if this was his rookie season-- it's not his rookie season. He would be considered "untapped" if he did not already have 3 off seasons to get ready for the NHL and each year seems to come back less ready than the one before. We could blame the " anti development" narrative if the fans saw any actual skill sets he has that set him apart-- we don't-- he's slow, has a below average shot, is all over the ice positionally, has slow reactions, can't generate anything off the rush, has below average compete...

Bottom line is- he needs to show something, anything that he's good at and get really good at that soon. Otherwise he's going to be in the worst possible situation for an NHL player which is " lack of clear identity"

 

[mas0764]

Pre-draft, one of this kid's greatest attributes was his compete level. I just don't see it right now. Whether it's been coached out of him, or his confidence is just shot, I have no idea. Laf just looks defeated out there. Complete passenger. No aggression or killer instinct with the puck on his stick.

He also looks.... weak? I know he's only 21, but I haven't seen any noticeable improvement in his strength or explosiveness. Does he train with Prentiss? I know a lot of our guys do, but some don't.

It's definitely at least in part, confidence.

Which is why he just needs reps, in part. Ice time.

He needs to work out the yips. He's better than this.

 

[Crease]

The Rangers are not trading a North American-born first-overall pick.

 

[Crease]

When you watch Kakko and Chytil, you see shades of Zibanejad. When you watch Kravtsov, you see shades of Buchnevich. But when you watch Lafreniere, you see shades of . . . Callahan? Dom Moore? The ceiling is low right now. He needs to take a major step forward in the offseason, beginning with his skating.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

For me? I put “official” in quotes on purpose because there’s no such thing and it’s subjective to the point that all I meant was that enough time would have passed for a consensus opinion to be accepted. Regarding your scenarios, for me, I’d say a ~60 point top six player is a disappointment but certainly not a bust. A 50ish point winger in the middle six, especially if they’re not a big PK contributor or something like that, I’d say is getting closer to bust territory for a 1OA, though still not a bad player.

If 55 points is the ballpark of your career high and you’re not killing penalties and matching up against other team’s top lines defensively, that’s a pretty poor return on the 1OA pick, but still managing to have a career as a fringe second liner. Anything less is a bust for the draft pick.

when i think of draft busts during the past 10 years the first two names that always pop up in my head is yakupov and virtanen. every season scoring less than 40 pts each is not one expects from high first round picks. one can be elevated from bust to disappointing status via career longevity as a somewhat functionable 3rd or 4th liner.

my demented mind has me wondering with a good coach and barzal at center how well would that line perform together?

 

[jerseyjinx94]

I’m going to reiterate a point I made a week or so ago. It is much easier to be cynical, negative, and conservative and be correct than it is to be positive and bold and correct.

Most players do not pan out. Taking a player who was drafted with high expectations during a global pandemic that shut down the sport and who has struggled to develop behind a veteran star cast and proclaiming him a bust before his entry level contract is a safe position. If said player does not bust, your comments can be buried beneath the good will and joy of his success, and if he does bust, you can point to your amazing foresight in proclaiming it.

But the truth is that we have no idea what’s going to become of Laffy. He is a work in progress and although the gains have been disappointing, he is far from a finished product. A lot will depend on him and the work he puts in, and some will depend on the organization as well. Give the kid some time and stop focusing so much on him. Enjoy the development of Key, Chytil, Schneider and Kakko this year, who have all taken a pretty big leap forward.

 

[Greg02]

I’m going to reiterate a point I made a week or so ago. It is much easier to be cynical, negative, and conservative and be correct than it is to be positive and bold and correct.

Most players do not pan out. Taking a player who was drafted with high expectations during a global pandemic that shut down the sport and who has struggled to develop behind a veteran star cast and proclaiming him a bust before his entry level contract is a safe position. If said player does not bust, your comments can be buried beneath the good will and joy of his success, and if he does bust, you can point to your amazing foresight in proclaiming it.

But the truth is that we have no idea what’s going to become of Laffy. He is a work in progress and although the gains have been disappointing, he is far from a finished product. A lot will depend on him and the work he puts in, and some will depend on the organization as well. Give the kid some time and stop focusing so much on him. Enjoy the development of Key, Chytil, Schneider and Kakko this year, who have all taken a pretty big leap forward.

This is generally true about prospects. It is not generally true about 1OAs.

People are making legitimate criticism about a specific player.

 

[EdJovanovski]

I don't get the argument that trading him now would be selling low, some are saying it would be selling low because they're holding on to some glimmer of hope due to his draft pedigree. Some GM's would take the risk with that same glimmer of hope. The longer we go without him showing anything, the more that luster of his draft pedigree will wear off. It might be selling high to trade him at this point instead of waiting to be proven right about him being a bust. He's still going to bring back a meaningful return right now, the same can't be said if he continues on his current projection.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

His pace and compete level need to jump a level. Or two.

And as many times he makes a nice little pass to someone, he's making two or three passes to no one, giving up the puck way too easily, being behind the play or just not involved in the spirit of the game and competing like we have seen him compete in his junior years as well as the stretch run and playoffs last season.

He's got a lot of work to do. To me there is a mental block going on. We saw it with Kakko earlier in his career too. Too much thinking. Watching. Too much reacting and not doing. Not enough freedom in his game, not enough drive. This is all self-inflicted. The split-seconds you waste with all of this extra thinking energy burns you to the ice in this league. You become a passenger. Confidence is everything for a forward and he just doesnt have it right now.

Can he work himself out of it? Sure. He needs some good things to happen. Feel good about himself and things could turn around. But it sure isnt looking very good right now.

I look at a player like Roberston with the Stars. I was blown away at a few sequences watching how poor his skating was. I had to rewind the DVR to actually confirm it was him that i was seeing. And all those goals? Different player skillset, but you can get away with Lafs skating and still do damage in this league. The difference is confidence.

 

[Ail]

The best defense of Laff in this thread: He's young, he was drafted 1st OA. I don't feel so good Laff bros!

 

[McRanger92]

Pre-draft, one of this kid's greatest attributes was his compete level. I just don't see it right now. Whether it's been coached out of him, or his confidence is just shot, I have no idea. Laf just looks defeated out there. Complete passenger. No aggression or killer instinct with the puck on his stick.

He also looks.... weak? I know he's only 21, but I haven't seen any noticeable improvement in his strength or explosiveness. Does he train with Prentiss? I know a lot of our guys do, but some don't.

Where is the kid who fought Steven Stamkos after a playoff game last year? Or fought Pageau in similar instance last year. Lindgren got boarded last night and Lafreniere was right there with his head in the clouds. That to me is more concerning than the lack of production. Compete level is non-existent

 

[mas0764]

It feels a little like the Lias Andersson thing where the kid is clearly struggling mentally but the team is out to lunch in terms of trying to course correct any of it.