Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[markymarc1215]

Should have drafted a Jesper Fast or Dom Moore type with the top pick

Sadly that is about Laf's level of offensive production now. Or traded down given the glut of LW existing at the time and currently. But again, development means giving a young player ice time and responsibility, and allowing them to play through mistakes. Overall, we are not that type of organization. The only year I ever recall that potentially happening was 05-06. And the next year, we were right back to signing veterans.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

Should have drafted a Jesper Fast or Dom Moore type with the top pick

yeah and that pick will have just 3 less EV's than mackinnon but have 5 more than stoots. also will join the PP1 unit with bred being dropped to PP2.

 

[huerter]

Lukas Reichel for Laf

 

[markymarc1215]

Lukas Reichel for Laf

For better or worse, you keep Laf and hope it works out. I think it will, even if its below initial expectations. Trading him to watch him become a star isnt an option. We dont need another Marc Savard or Sergei Zubov (though Zubov was a star here) situation playing out

 

[jerseyjinx94]

Lol this thread just keeps getting worse to read

 

[Chaels Arms]

I thought I'd share the following -- it's part of an email from a friend about Laffy. I think it helps put things into perspective:

"I've gone back and researched the scouting reports on him coming out of Juniors, and they were not that he was a Connor McDavid proxy, they were that he has an elite hockey IQ, knows where to go to score goals and is willing to do so, plays gritty and pesky, and is a terrific locker room personality.

None of these qualities has proven untrue with Laf. What he very clearly struggles with is (1) his back check, and (2) his foot speed. I think it's very likely that both of those things have been points of emphasis by his coaches, and that in trying to improve in areas away from the puck, as well as in trying to change the way he plays in order to fit into a roster that has 2 players ahead of him in the depth chart at his position, he has lost sight of his personal identity as a player."

By the way --- didn't someone here comment that that draft was a weak draft?

I like you as a poster but honestly your friend is either taking large doses of cope-ium or his "research" sucks. I posted actual clips earlier in this thread from various scouting sources including NHL central scouting and TSN. He was literally being compared to Huberdeau, Pastrnak and Ovechkin lmao.

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

I like you as a poster but honestly your friend is either taking large doses of cope-ium or his "research" sucks. I posted actual clips earlier in this thread from various scouting sources including NHL central scouting and TSN. He was literally being compared to Huberdeau, Pastrnak and Ovechkin lmao.

The most frequent comp was Kane.

And his ceiling was a "potentially generational player" while his floor was described as "just elite"

Definitely revisionist history by some in the thread.

Imagine two top two picks in him and Kakko and half the fanbase is going to be happy if they turn into 60 point replaceables.

Some days I really wish I could've grown up and been a fan of another franchise...

 

[Deleted member 23124]

I like you as a poster but honestly your friend is either taking large doses of cope-ium or his "research" sucks. I posted actual clips earlier in this thread from various scouting sources including NHL central scouting and TSN. He was literally being compared to Huberdeau, Pastrnak and Ovechkin lmao.

I saw your posts -- didn't get a chance to watch yet.

 

[Synergy27]

The new avatar is great. Is that a bust of Laf somewhere in front a DC government building? Maybe a monument?

Haha. You are all over it.

 

[mas0764]

Tear it all down to the studs because ONE 21 year old is struggling and might not live up to the hype!

My man, if your plan is to trade everyone away and pray to the gods so that everything perfectly falls into place AND you luck into multiple lottery picks all with the hope of topping:

Zib
Panarin
Kreider
Kakko
Kravtsov
Trochek
Chytil
Laff

And you time everything perfectly. And ignoring the fact you have a 23 year old Norris caliber defenseman, a rising star in Miller, a blossoming Schneider AND the reigning Vezina winning goaltender… You are delusional

My plan wouldn't be to trade everyone away, just certain older veterans. There's enough keepers here - Kakko, Chytil, hopefully Laf comes around, even if they aren't elite players. Miller and Schneider both keepers. Fox of course, and he's young enough to stay here for a long time, I'm not worried about his window closing.

But yeah, since I continue to believe this team isn't capable of winning the Cup, I'd go in a different direction. Nothing has changed since last year. We swapped out Strome for Trocheck. Other than that everything is basically the same.

We need our Crosby. Our Kane. Our MacKinnon. Really our Malkin or Toews too, and we kinda have neither.

 

[ElLeetch]

Should have drafted a Jesper Fast or Dom Moore type with the top pick

they tried that with Lias.

Overall, we are not that type of organization. The only year I ever recall that potentially happening was 05-06. And the next year, we were right back to signing veterans.

That was the plan, till Lundqvist and Jagr made us look better and further ahead than where we were. That was also the plan three years ago, until Igor and Panarin made is look further ahead than where we were.

rinse and repeat.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

My plan wouldn't be to trade everyone away, just certain older veterans. There's enough keepers here - Kakko, Chytil, hopefully Laf comes around, even if they aren't elite players. Miller and Schneider both keepers. Fox of course, and he's young enough to stay here for a long time, I'm not worried about his window closing.

But yeah, since I continue to believe this team isn't capable of winning the Cup, I'd go in a different direction. Nothing has changed since last year. We swapped out Strome for Trocheck. Other than that everything is basically the same.

We need our Crosby. Our Kane. Our MacKinnon. Really our Malkin or Toews too, and we kinda have neither.

You make it like these guys are available every draft. They're not. And even if Drury and co. were to re-rebuild (which thankfully they aren't) there's not guarantee the Rangers win the pick that gets them that player. You keep talking about these elite duos, but how's that worked out for teams like Edmonton, Toronto, and Carolina. Two elite forwards doesn't guarantee anything.

 

[OthmannOut]

Yeah the play in OT was brutal but I'm a bit surprised this thread is popping off after that game in particular.

It's 1OA envy after Jack Hughes dipped his nuts in our face again.

 

[mas0764]

You make it like these guys are available every draft. They're not. And even if Drury and co. were to re-rebuild (which thankfully they aren't) there's not guarantee the Rangers win the pick that gets them that player. You keep talking about these elite duos, but how's that worked out for teams like Edmonton, Toronto, and Carolina. Two elite forwards doesn't guarantee anything.

I don't think I'm making it like they are available every draft - if anything, our experience shows us that, at least for the Rangers, they aren't always available. We had two "sure thing" picks lined up and somehow we've still botched them so far.

This is the bottom line - I see very little chance of winning a Cup as constructed. I see a team that is topping out about where it is.

I see a better chance, and of course it is not guaranteed, but I see a better chance if you go do what it takes to acquire your MacKinnon and Rantanen first. A much better chance, actually.

Yeah, you might end up as Toronto, but I actually think Toronto has a better chance than us overall in the grand scheme of things.

Not that we aren't capable of beating Toronto right this second in a 7 game series, I think we could, and I actually think Toronto is a very flawed team, but I'm saying I think the fixes that Toronto needs to become a team capable of winning Cups are easier to find/fix than our own issues.

I'm not worried about falling into the trappings of the "constantly rebuilding," like Buffalo or Arizona or the "constantly underachieving" like Edmonton or Carolina. For one thing, Carolina has actually won a Cup in the last 20 years with a star center, so, yeah, if we ended up like they are that's still ahead of where we currently are. But I'm not worried about being Edmonton or Buffalo or Arizona because we are a big market team, an original six team, and for all the dog piling I do on Drury/Sather/Dolan I think they are at least competent enough to capitalize on that status. On top of that we have an organizational culture of strong defense and goaltending. So we are not gonna end up as one of those teams, we have too many other ingrained advantages.

Yeah, I'm willing to throw away second round playoff exits with this core. I don't deny it. The difference is, I don't see any hope of this team winning a Cup, again, without Laf and Kakko taking such huge strides as to be pretty much unforeseeable right now. If that's not happening, then we really can't win IMO.

So I advocate for the only approach to get us to where we CAN win. Finding our MacKinnon.

Yeah, it's hard to get one of those. But those are the guys that win almost all the Cups. Is it easier to find a MacKinnon level player (let's check the math on how many top 5 picks become stars?) or to win a Cup without a true star forward (the Blues are the only one in recent memory to do it without one)?

I'll roll my dice on finding a star forward, or really, if we want to win more than one Cup, multiple star forwards.

 

[ReddestRum]

I'm not worried about falling into the trappings of the "constantly rebuilding," like Buffalo or Arizona or the "constantly underachieving" like Edmonton or Carolina. For one thing, Carolina has actually won a Cup in the last 20 years with a star center, so, yeah, if we ended up like they are that's still ahead of where we currently are. But I'm not worried about being Edmonton or Buffalo or Arizona because we are a big market team, an original six team, and for all the dog piling I do on Drury/Sather/Dolan I think they are at least competent enough to capitalize on that status. On top of that we have an organizational culture of strong defense and goaltending. So we are not gonna end up as one of those teams, we have too many other ingrained advantages.

Yeah, I'm willing to throw away second round playoff exits with this core. I don't deny it. The difference is, I don't see any hope of this team winning a Cup, again, without Laf and Kakko taking such huge strides as to be pretty much unforeseeable right now. If that's not happening, then we really can't win IMO.

With the players we have right now, we're definitely pushing for a cup win. However, with the kids not being tried and true, our depth chart isn't looking too good right now. Sure they could blossom and play well in the playoffs, but that's not a gimmie this time around.

Just how long do we really have to both win and cup and rebuild, because if you ask me, if we don't do it in Shesty's prime (both cup and rebuild), we're going to be f***ed for a very, very long time. The way we make him play his ass of game in and game out makes me think we'll burn him out far quicker than it would take for Laf, Kakkpo, and Chy to get their shit together.

Finding a forward that can take you all the way is good and all, but the goalie is the most important piece of this equation. Especially when after our first pairing, our defense tends to become swiss cheese.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I don't think I'm making it like they are available every draft - if anything, our experience shows us that, at least for the Rangers, they aren't always available. We had two "sure thing" picks lined up and somehow we've still botched them so far.

This is the bottom line - I see very little chance of winning a Cup as constructed. I see a team that is topping out about where it is.

I see a better chance, and of course it is not guaranteed, but I see a better chance if you go do what it takes to acquire your MacKinnon and Rantanen first. A much better chance, actually.

Yeah, you might end up as Toronto, but I actually think Toronto has a better chance than us overall in the grand scheme of things.

Not that we aren't capable of beating Toronto right this second in a 7 game series, I think we could, and I actually think Toronto is a very flawed team, but I'm saying I think the fixes that Toronto needs to become a team capable of winning Cups are easier to find/fix than our own issues.

I'm not worried about falling into the trappings of the "constantly rebuilding," like Buffalo or Arizona or the "constantly underachieving" like Edmonton or Carolina. For one thing, Carolina has actually won a Cup in the last 20 years with a star center, so, yeah, if we ended up like they are that's still ahead of where we currently are. But I'm not worried about being Edmonton or Buffalo or Arizona because we are a big market team, an original six team, and for all the dog piling I do on Drury/Sather/Dolan I think they are at least competent enough to capitalize on that status. On top of that we have an organizational culture of strong defense and goaltending. So we are not gonna end up as one of those teams, we have too many other ingrained advantages.

Yeah, I'm willing to throw away second round playoff exits with this core. I don't deny it. The difference is, I don't see any hope of this team winning a Cup, again, without Laf and Kakko taking such huge strides as to be pretty much unforeseeable right now. If that's not happening, then we really can't win IMO.

So I advocate for the only approach to get us to where we CAN win. Finding our MacKinnon.

Yeah, it's hard to get one of those. But those are the guys that win almost all the Cups. Is it easier to find a MacKinnon level player (let's check the math on how many top 5 picks become stars?) or to win a Cup without a true star forward (the Blues are the only one in recent memory to do it without one)?

I'll roll my dice on finding a star forward, or really, if we want to win more than one Cup, multiple star forwards.

It would be negligence on the team's part to pack it in and waste Igor, Zib, Fox, and co just because Laff isn't where he needs to be. For better or worse, this is the team for the next few seasons unless something crazy happens. It took the Rangers 100 years to land 2 OA and 1 OA in back to back seasons. That's not happening again in our lifetimes.

 

[mas0764]

With the players we have right now, we're definitely pushing for a cup win. However, with the kids not being tried and true, our depth chart isn't looking too good right now. Sure they could blossom and play well in the playoffs, but that's not a gimmie this time around.

Just how long do we really have to both win and cup and rebuild, because if you ask me, if we don't do it in Shesty's prime (both cup and rebuild), we're going to be f***ed for a very, very long time. The way we make him play his ass of game in and game out makes me think we'll burn him out far quicker than it would take for Laf, Kakkpo, and Chy to get their shit together.

Finding a forward that can take you all the way is good and all, but the goalie is the most important piece of this equation. Especially when after our first pairing, our defense tends to become swiss cheese.

I think goalie is the least important, actually. We had Lundkvist for ages and he couldn't get over the hump. Meanwhile Colorado wins with Darcy Kuemper. Pittsburgh wins with Matt Murray, etc.

I think if we try to both win now and build for the future, we will not optimize either and probably not win in either window. But I also don't think, absent someone trading us MacKinnon or Matthews or at least Elias Pettersson or something, that there is really any way for THIS CORE to win now. And even then I think we need our D to keep growing until Miller/Schneider/Jones are ready for the playoffs.

On the other hand, I think there are a handful of moves that if done differently, we are basically set right now. I would have traded Kreider for the Robertson/first package from the Stars and Buch for the first package from the Kings. Oh, we don't believe Edge when he says those were the deals? Ok, so maybe they didn't exist 1-for-1.

But all I have to do is look at what other players got at those deadlines, players who were worse than Kreider, worse than Buch, and I know we would have gotten similar hauls. I don't need a speculative insider report to know that I could have done better if the team had gone a different direction.

And frankly, I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to moving Shesterkin in a year or two before his contract expires. What if Anaheim would give me Zegras and Mason McTavish? Like... I'm doing that.

 

[chosen]

This is some revisionist BS.

There were always the "Be a GM EA NHL zero patience" crowd and the "calm down, the kids will be fine" crowd.

Laffy almost certainly will not live up to his draft position, but he will also develope.

Revisionist.

People here constantly complain that Ranger forwards don't develop.

Buchnevich did.

Chytil did.

Kakko did.

Unsure what you're talking about.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

we're not an elite team by any stretch. however, we're still a dangerous team.

check out the rosters on carolina and edmonton 2005-06. i don't seen any real elite names on either roster. but those were dangerous teams. and look how far they went.

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

The problem is that this team has been constructed like the 90s Buffalo Sabres teams for the better part of a generation. The game plan was always decent defense and a Hasek.

Sure, 90s Buffalo had stars pass through - like LaFontaine, Mogilny, Dale Hawerchuk - but they also regularly leaned on guys like Derek Plante, Miro Satan, and Donald Audette to be first line players. And they didn't win s***.

They had '99, we had '14. But hey they were generally competitive all season and Hasek stole games, so "anything can happen" in the playoffs.

We've had the same results trying to ride Lundqvist and now Shesterkin while playing middle 6 forwards in the top line to complement the limited stars we do have, and generally a capable defense as well with 1 or 2 question marks.

The problem is that this just isn't how championship teams are built. Add to that, that we rarely get key contributions from young players because this organization is so mired in the mindset of they have to prove themselves, that we almost never get a fresh impact rookie late in the season who's a key contributor down the stretch. The one guy who was that (Kreider) literally couldn't even stay in the lineup the following season because we had an asshat of a coach who was holding him back while running the team's best scorer out of town.

Generally, two elite forwards, 1-2 very good forwards after that, one elite D, a good goalie, and depth scoring that includes young players who are not injury prone - has been the barometer by which Cup teams can be identified.

I really think we're deluding ourselves if we look at how Colorado was constructed last year, or how Boston is constructed this year, and think our team is even in the same stratosphere.

IMO our best team was in 2015, but we were blatantly outcoached. Didn't help that Nash and MSL were terrible that playoffs, and Yandle was completely misused while the triplets basically teabagged Staal/Girardi for multiple games with no response from the coaching staff. And we still lost in 7.

Last year was a nice run, and good to get the kids playoff experience, but that doesn't happen without key injuries to other teams. You can benefit from it, but you can't count on/build around it, and you can't expect that kind of luck to last 4 rounds.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

Revisionist.

People here constantly complain that Ranger forwards don't develop.

Buchnevich did.

Chytil did.

Kakko did.

Unsure what you're talking about.

with this organization history more often than not will repeat itself. with regards to drafting and developing skill sets of offensive talents:

-most often it's a guy that they chose who just flat out sucked for whatever reason
-5-6 years to develop players who eventually hits the 60 pt mark. and will only hit that mark maybe one more time if still with us. if some of them leave us they'll hit 60+ maybe a few more times and sometimes hit 80+ once or twice.

what this organization doesn't do is develop players in the level of hall of fame offensive juggernauts, hasn't been done for decades and won't ever be done unless the time has come to be proven otherwise.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Revisionist.

People here constantly complain that Ranger forwards don't develop.

Buchnevich did.

Chytil did.

Kakko did.

Unsure what you're talking about.

I'd even add Mika did.

with this organization history more often than not will repeat itself. with regards to drafting and developing skill sets of offensive talents:

-most often it's a guy that they chose who just flat out sucked for whatever reason
-5-6 years to develop players who eventually hits the 60 pt mark. and will only hit that mark maybe one more time if still with us. if some of them leave us they'll hit 60+ maybe a few more times and sometimes hit 80+ once or twice.

what this organization doesn't do is develop players in the level of hall of fame offensive juggernauts, hasn't been done for decades and won't ever be done unless the time has come to be proven otherwise.

Mika is currently a top 10 center, for an organization that hasn't had one of those since the 90's.

While not a rangers draft pick, he was developed by the org. He's a PPG center. 4 seasons of ppg play.
including 41 goals in 57 games in 19-20.

This "rangers cant develop offense" is a narrative that people need to get over.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

The problem is that this team has been constructed like the 90s Buffalo Sabres teams for the better part of a generation. The game plan was always decent defense and a Hasek.

Sure, 90s Buffalo had stars pass through - like LaFontaine, Mogilny, Dale Hawerchuk - but they also regularly leaned on guys like Derek Plante, Miro Satan, and Donald Audette to be first line players. And they didn't win s***.

They had '99, we had '14. But hey they were generally competitive all season and Hasek stole games, so "anything can happen" in the playoffs.

We've had the same results trying to ride Lundqvist and now Shesterkin while playing middle 6 forwards in the top line to complement the limited stars we do have, and generally a capable defense as well with 1 or 2 question marks.

The problem is that this just isn't how championship teams are built. Add to that, that we rarely get key contributions from young players because this organization is so mired in the mindset of they have to prove themselves, that we almost never get a fresh impact rookie late in the season who's a key contributor down the stretch. The one guy who was that (Kreider) literally couldn't even stay in the lineup the following season because we had an asshat of a coach who was holding him back while running the team's best scorer out of town.

Generally, two elite forwards, 1-2 very good forwards after that, one elite D, a good goalie, and depth scoring that includes young players who are not injury prone - has been the barometer by which Cup teams can be identified.

I really think we're deluding ourselves if we look at how Colorado was constructed last year, or how Boston is constructed this year, and think our team is even in the same stratosphere.

IMO our best team was in 2015, but we were blatantly outcoached. Didn't help that Nash and MSL were terrible that playoffs, and Yandle was completely misused while the triplets basically teabagged Staal/Girardi for multiple games with no response from the coaching staff. And we still lost in 7.

Last year was a nice run, and good to get the kids playoff experience, but that doesn't happen without key injuries to other teams. You can benefit from it, but you can't count on/build around it, and you can't expect that kind of luck to last 4 rounds.

sure AV was outcoached. yet you make it sound like he was some piece of shit. the team had to win against pitt and washington to get to play against tampa. and yeah if you're going to get outcoached who better than john cooper? one of the best coaches in the league the past 9 years.

 

[NoQuitInNewMexico]

Is he exempt from waivers? If so, for how long? It's the same way I feel about randomly shoving him on the first power play: he isn't building confidence or skills in the current situation, it's not about promoting him or demoting him

 

[mas0764]

It would be negligence on the team's part to pack it in and waste Igor, Zib, Fox, and co just because Laff isn't where he needs to be. For better or worse, this is the team for the next few seasons unless something crazy happens. It took the Rangers 100 years to land 2 OA and 1 OA in back to back seasons. That's not happening again in our lifetimes.

It's not negligence to waste Fox because he's 24 and is gonna be here a while. Zibanejad is not some irreplaceable player. He's the first good 1C we've had in a while but just about every competing team has his equivalent or better. The lack of good 1Cs that come through here isn't a statement on how rare players of his caliber are, it's an indictment of our organization and fostering/developing offensive talent.

It would sting to not win one with Shesterkin, true, but what I really don't want is to waste another decade of a Vezina goalie and not win one either, which is where I fear we are almost certainly headed. I'd rather get out in front of this problem.

It only "took," the Rangers 100 years to land such high picks because of how they do business: they refuse to rebuild properly. The first time they tried it in my lifetime, they got first and second overall twice in four tries. It's not that hard to get into the top 5, anyway, and get Matthew Tkachuks and Trevor Zegrases and Tim Stuetzles.