Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

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we're not an elite team by any stretch. however, we're still a dangerous team.

check out the rosters on carolina and edmonton 2005-06. i don't seen any real elite names on either roster. but those were dangerous teams. and look how far they went.

Not sure why we are "looking at" a team that lost the Stanley Cup final. Let's look at the Blackhawks, Penguins, Kings, Lightning or Avalanche instead and try to be them.

And no it's not "impossible," to reach that level. I just named 5 teams of the past 20 years. Clearly reaching that level is not some historical unreachable fluke.

The problem is that this team has been constructed like the 90s Buffalo Sabres teams for the better part of a generation. The game plan was always decent defense and a Hasek.

Sure, 90s Buffalo had stars pass through - like LaFontaine, Mogilny, Dale Hawerchuk - but they also regularly leaned on guys like Derek Plante, Miro Satan, and Donald Audette to be first line players. And they didn't win s***.

They had '99, we had '14. But hey they were generally competitive all season and Hasek stole games, so "anything can happen" in the playoffs.

We've had the same results trying to ride Lundqvist and now Shesterkin while playing middle 6 forwards in the top line to complement the limited stars we do have, and generally a capable defense as well with 1 or 2 question marks.

The problem is that this just isn't how championship teams are built. Add to that, that we rarely get key contributions from young players because this organization is so mired in the mindset of they have to prove themselves, that we almost never get a fresh impact rookie late in the season who's a key contributor down the stretch. The one guy who was that (Kreider) literally couldn't even stay in the lineup the following season because we had an asshat of a coach who was holding him back while running the team's best scorer out of town.

Generally, two elite forwards, 1-2 very good forwards after that, one elite D, a good goalie, and depth scoring that includes young players who are not injury prone - has been the barometer by which Cup teams can be identified.

I really think we're deluding ourselves if we look at how Colorado was constructed last year, or how Boston is constructed this year, and think our team is even in the same stratosphere.

IMO our best team was in 2015, but we were blatantly outcoached. Didn't help that Nash and MSL were terrible that playoffs, and Yandle was completely misused while the triplets basically teabagged Staal/Girardi for multiple games with no response from the coaching staff. And we still lost in 7.

Last year was a nice run, and good to get the kids playoff experience, but that doesn't happen without key injuries to other teams. You can benefit from it, but you can't count on/build around it, and you can't expect that kind of luck to last 4 rounds.

Yes. This.

The Athletic has generated a general template of what you need and we fall short.

I will give credit to @duhmetreE because one of the things we are lacking, which Trouba was supposed to be and isn't, is another #1D. And Chychrun would really help fill that. I'm just not willing to pay four elite pieces.... because we are also short other things at forward and I need those pieces.
 
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KK has surpassed the eye test for most of this season. He was just unlucky for a long stretch.

Lafreniere has been underwhelming in almost every way this season. There is no reason to believe he will suddenly figure it out and go on a hot streak.

I'm still hopeful Laf will figure it out, but he just hasn't shown signs of being that kind of player (yet).

I hate to be negative but, and I love the kid, but Kakko has passed the eye test for being a functional first line complimentary player so far, like, I dunno, Nischuskin, but as @Machinehead has pointed out, not for developing into a water-carrying superstar.
 
Not sure why we are "looking at" a team that lost the Stanley Cup final. Let's look at the Blackhawks, Penguins, Kings, Lightning or Avalanche instead and try to be them.

And no it's not "impossible," to reach that level. I just named 5 teams of the past 20 years. Clearly reaching that level is not some historical unreachable fluke.



Yes. This.

The Athletic has generated a general template of what you need and we fall short.

I will give credit to @duhmetreE because one of the things we are lacking, which Trouba was supposed to be and isn't, is another #1D. And Chychrun would really help fill that. I'm just not willing to pay four elite pieces.... because we are also short other things at forward and I need those pieces.
"why we are "looking at" a team that lost the Stanley Cup final."

oh i don't know. maybe you have to be able to get to the dance before you can start doing any dance? i guess you wouldn't appreciate the level difficulty of just making a cup final.

also the team didn't have that mackinnon type of driver. hemsky was the team's leading scorer. the only elite player they had on the roster was pronger.

all right we get it, you want elite player(s) on your favorite team that will evolve into a team dynasty. in nfl we want our teams to be like the patriots, the 90s' cowboys, etc. in the nba the 90's bulls or even the showtime lakers.

let me ask you somethings? it's been close to 30 years since the cup win. if the rangers somehow only win one cup in the next 30-40 years could you accept that?
 
"why we are "looking at" a team that lost the Stanley Cup final."

oh i don't know. maybe you have to be able to get to the dance before you can start doing any dance? i guess you wouldn't appreciate the level difficulty of just making a cup final.

also the team didn't have that mackinnon type of driver. hemsky was the team's leading scorer. the only elite player they had on the roster was pronger.

all right we get it, you want elite player(s) on your favorite team that will evolve into a team dynasty. in nfl we want our teams to be like the patriots, the 90s' cowboys, etc. in the nba the 90's bulls or even the showtime lakers.

let me ask you somethings? it's been close to 30 years since the cup win. if the rangers somehow only win one cup in the next 30-40 years could you accept that?
Were you alive in 1994?

I was and I couldn't buy a beer yet...

If I'm waiting another 40 years for this Original 6 franchise... with unlimited resources and funding... to win their 2nd Cup in 70 years...

then I hope medical technology takes some big leaps because otherwise someone will have to chant "1994" really loud for me to hear it
 
the fact that we have to put our thumb on the scale when weighing our first overall pick against Julien f***ing Gauthier is so beyond depressing it makes me not even want to exist anymore
It's a thumb on the scale to say comparing the development of a 21 year old to a 25 year old isn't exactly apples to apples? Hahahaha. That's simply factual. Listen, if Lafreniere was 25 right now VERY few of us would have hope for him. And just for perspective, Gauth was a first rounder as well, picked at the same spot in his draft that Chytil was in his. He wasn't some mid round pick.
 
Were you alive in 1994?

I was and I couldn't buy a beer yet...

If I'm waiting another 40 years for this Original 6 franchise... with unlimited resources and funding... to win their 2nd Cup in 70 years...

then I hope medical technology takes some big leaps because otherwise someone will have to chant "1994" really loud for me to hear it

I was a teenager when they won the cup. Now I’m pushing 50…and I’m still waiting. The whole “this one will last a lifetime” comment was not meant to be taken literally, Rangers!
 
Yes. This.

The Athletic has generated a general template of what you need and we fall short.

I will give credit to @duhmetreE because one of the things we are lacking, which Trouba was supposed to be and isn't, is another #1D. And Chychrun would really help fill that. I'm just not willing to pay four elite pieces.... because we are also short other things at forward and I need those pieces.
If you back out long enough those assets are reimbursed through the trading of Trouba

Consider it a deposit on strengthening our chances over the next 3 playoff runs.
 
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Patience
 

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"why we are "looking at" a team that lost the Stanley Cup final."

oh i don't know. maybe you have to be able to get to the dance before you can start doing any dance? i guess you wouldn't appreciate the level difficulty of just making a cup final.

You're missing the point. We did that in 2014 already. I'm not interested in emulating the '06 Oilers. They lost. We should emulate the winners.

also the team didn't have that mackinnon type of driver. hemsky was the team's leading scorer. the only elite player they had on the roster was pronger.

all right we get it, you want elite player(s) on your favorite team that will evolve into a team dynasty. in nfl we want our teams to be like the patriots, the 90s' cowboys, etc. in the nba the 90's bulls or even the showtime lakers.

let me ask you somethings? it's been close to 30 years since the cup win. if the rangers somehow only win one cup in the next 30-40 years could you accept that?

Of course I'd accept that, but again, missing the point. The point is, there's nothing to accept because it hasn't happened and it's likely not going to happen.

The vast majority of Cups are won by repeat winners the last decade and a half or so. The teams I keep being told are "impossible" to emulate, there's like five of them, and they keep winning. In the past 15 years, 11 of the Cups were won by 5 teams whose long term, elite cores won more than 1 Cup. That's like 75% of the Cups spread among like 15% of the teams. (Side note: If you believe Colorado is likely to repeat at some point, that'll drive the percentage even higher. And then factor in that another Cup was won by a Boston, with multiple high end forwards - and who has been a contender for forever, and has lost 2 Cup Finals including one that they easily could have won - with and another was won by a team - Washington - that has the 2nd greatest goal scorer ever).

Somehow 15% of the league has managed to build multi-Cup winners, but it's impossible for us? No. We need into that top club. It's not impossible, just hard.

Meanwhile, if you're outside that 15%, you basically don't win a Cup. There's Washington - again, with the 2nd greatest goal scorer ever, which, that's the kind of player I'm saying we need - or there's the Blues. So like 1 team in 15 years doesn't have the kind of core that I'm saying we need.

1 out of 15 isn't great odds. Why is that what people keep arguing for? It's better to try to be a one-off, on the odds that we MIGHT be that one team in the next 15 years that wins? Or should we keep building our core and get to the Pittsburgh/Detroit/Chicago/LA/Tampa/Colorado realm?

I know my answer.
 
Were you alive in 1994?

I was and I couldn't buy a beer yet...

If I'm waiting another 40 years for this Original 6 franchise... with unlimited resources and funding... to win their 2nd Cup in 70 years...

then I hope medical technology takes some big leaps because otherwise someone will have to chant "1994" really loud for me to hear it
was i alive in '94? i've been following this team since 1980.

unlimited resources and funds sure are beneficial but doesn't ensure championships, let alone even just one. there are other factors involved for that to happen.

if you don't feeling lime waiting another 30, 40, or 50 years for the next cup then don't wait. in the meantime take good care of your ears.
 
Lmao. What's more unrealistic, the production or the games played? That's more than 19 seasons worth of games without missing any time.

Look how chiseled his face is. Full chad. He's not going to miss anytime and will break iron man records.
 
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was i alive in '94? i've been following this team since 1980.

unlimited resources and funds sure are beneficial but doesn't ensure championships, let alone even just one. there are other factors involved for that to happen.

if you don't feeling lime waiting another 30, 40, or 50 years for the next cup then don't wait. in the meantime take good care of your ears.

Of course unlimited funds and resources don’t guarantee a Cup… they DO NOT hold you back tho (like PHX for example)

My point was I’ll be dead by the time 40 or 50 yrs arrives

So as @Shadowtron said I guess mine WILL have to last a lifetime and if that’s you’re bar for this franchise then more power to you…

I want more than F UCKING one
 
If you want sustained success with the best overall chances for a Cup or Cups, even though it means waiting longer, then we need more young, talented forwards, and they actually need to turn into good, elite top line players.

If you want another Cup that can have a forty plus year gap between championships - and who knows when that lightning might strike, because there's no guarantee it happens, then by all means keep doing what we've been doing the past 30 years. There's a very small chance that it could happen this year. Maybe next year. Maybe the year after. But don't count on repeating.
 
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I hope you're not talking about me apologizing because I've never said Laf can't become a star. I've said I'm concerned, but never that he can't get there.

And yes if he becomes a star, along with Kakko, then we probably do have enough, if everyone else stays at their current level of production, to win a Cup.

The issue is that if that takes 3 more years for Lafreniere and Kakko to become all-star caliber players, then Panarin, Kreider and Zibanejad will all have fallen off, perhaps dramatically so, and we are in the same boat. Always a good team never a great one.
I'm not talking about you specifically, I'm generally referring to posters who are stating affirmatively that Lafreniere will not be a star, or that Lafreniere should be traded, giving up on his potential based on the record before us so far. Whether that includes you or not I don't know, I haven't studied your posts closely enough. But just generally to everyone who is expressing that view.

My point is it is very easy to be NEGATIVE or conservative with predictions. In my experience, those types of predictions are usually correct, mainly because odds are less. For example, if you were to say "there's no way the Rangers win the Cup this year" versus "The Rangers will definitely win the Cup this year," the latter is a MUCH more bold prediction. It's easier to say the former, and fall back on "I was right."

Likewise, in the event Laffy does bust, there will be a herd of posters claiming victory on their assessment, and saying the Rangers should have traded him in 2023, and look at my post back then, I knew it. Even if he doesn't bust and becomes a 50 pt player, posters will do that. However, if the team is patient and he breaks out and becomes a star, all of those posters will be able to hide behind the joy of being a Rangers fan and him being successful, by saying "I was always rooting for him" or "we're all Rangers fans and want the same things." There will be no accountability for their child-like reactions right now, when not a single person knows how this story will be written.

It is one thing to be frustrated with the player's development, or the team's usage of the player. But knocking people for preaching patience on a player, and again I'm not saying this is you but generally throughout this thread others have done it, is beyond the pale. Patience is a huge requirement as a fan in drafting young players. From what I've seen in your posts, you know that as well as anyone. I understand how he was billed and he has not lived up to those expectations yet and I do understand that as a fan it is frustrating. I too am frustrated - mostly in the team's usage of him, but also in his lack of dynamic playmaking which I expected to turn up here and there.

He has played 175 games and has 70 even strength points. His average TOI has always been sub 15 minutes per game. He has received 0 PP time. Every time he as promoted, he was given very little rope to settle in and get going before being demoted. Yes, he has played some in the top 6, but not really for long stretches. The players he is being compared to do not have those limitations. It's pretty simple stuff.

It is pretty obvious to me that Lafreniere needs to do some work in the offseason, but also, that he lacks confidence in his game right now. Confidence is such a huge part of success. There's an old quote my dad used to tell me, I'm not sure who it is attributed to, but it goes "if you think you can or think you can't, you're right." He seems to be falling in the "you think you can't" area.

He knows if he makes a mistake he can be out of the lineup. He is being taught to play a simple game, a safe game. If he plays that way, you are going to get the version of him you see now, and not the one in his highlight reels. It is time to preach to the kid to go be a thoroughbred, within reason, pick your spots and make some plays. Go do the things that got you drafted 1st overall and just play your game. If it fails, you will not be benched. The guidance should come in learning when those plays were poorly timed, i.e. game management type guidance. Situational awareness type guidance. If he's being told to be a dump and chase player, this team is mismanaging him and killing his development.
 
If you want sustained success with the best overall chances for a Cup or Cups, even though it means waiting longer, then we need more young, talented forwards, and they actually need to turn into good, elite top line players.

If you want another Cup that can have a forty plus year gap between championships - and who knows when that lightning might strike, because there's no guarantee it happens, then by all means keep doing what we've been doing the past 30 years. There's a very small chance that it could happen this year. Maybe next year. Maybe the year after. But don't count on repeating.

How many elite top line players does a team need in your opinion? And how many do the Rangers currently have in your opinion?
 
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If you want sustained success with the best overall chances for a Cup or Cups, even though it means waiting longer, then we need more young, talented forwards, and they actually need to turn into good, elite top line players.

If this is what you need then why hasn't Edmonton won a Cup? Why are they on the bubble of a playoff spot yet again even with the most elite forwards in the sport? They've had McDavid, Draisatl, etc... for YEARS without any measurable success.

Clearly there's more to it than young talented and elite top line forwards.
 
How many elite top line players does a team need in your opinion? And how many do the Rangers currently have in your opinion?

It's a bit of a sliding scale, but the Rangers need more.

If you have Crosby, you may need one or two less.

If your best player is Zibanejad you may need one or two more.

We would need Kakko and Laf to become stars for me to feel significantly better about our odds. Before Panarin and Kreider or Zibanejad decline into supporting players.

The Athletic has broken down GSVA by position for like the last X amount of Cup winners and also how the Rangers lag behind, though as of like a year or two ago.

If this is what you need then why hasn't Edmonton won a Cup?

Because I didn't say that two elite forwards was the ONLY thing you need, did I?

Clearly there's more to it than young talented and elite top line forwards.

Yes. But you need elite top line forwards.
 
Edmonton is a shit show organization, though. The Rangers, other than their baffling inability to develop offense, are relatively stable, and generally have a good backbone of defense and goaltending.

You give us the firepower that Edmonton has offensively and we would win Cups, multiple.
 
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If you have Crosby, you may need one or two less.

If your best player is Zibanejad you may need one or two more.
I agree with this sentiment. Speaking only to the forwards:

Panarin is elite on paper. He was elite in his first year here. Is he still elite - in the way we’re talking about, to be the driving top piece on a championship team? I absolutely don’t think so. I’d love him to prove me wrong.

Zibanejad is a great player. He can’t do it on his own. He showed he can do a lot in the playoffs. He needs more help than what he’s getting.

Sidney Crosby could do it with Kunitz and Dupuis, but he still had arguably the second best center in the world at the time backing him up (and Letang in the Fox spot). Zib can’t do it with Kreider and Kakko. He’s not prime Crosby and Panarin is far from the impact player that playoffs prime Malkin was.

Honestly, Panarin is the problem. We paid him to be an elite play driving game changing franchise forward. He gave us a year and change of that and then became a floating turnover machine who needs special accommodations in linemates and just doesn’t control or take over games in meaningful ways, virtually ever. He has the second or third highest cap hit in the league. Swap Panarin for any number of forwards making 9-11M in his place who actually take over games and drive play, and it makes the entire complexion of the team change. Panarin just isn’t delivering what an 11.6M winger needs to - points are nice, but especially if you’re not a center and not a two-way contributor, you had better be taking over large stretches of 80% of games played if you’re going to make that type of money. His contract hurts us more than it helps us, honestly.
 
I don't consider them on the level of McDavid/Draisaitl, Crosby/Malkin, Kane/Toews, Stamkos/Kucherov, etc, no, I don't.

Interesting.

I mean, you can make a decent argument that the "core" pieces are there - Panarin, Zibanjed, Fox, and Shesterkin. I think the larger issue is the "kids" not coming along fast enough. They've got a forward that's on pace for 90 goals over two seasons (Kreider), an up and coming 2/3C in Chytil, and young D that are only going to improve (Schneider/Miller/Lindgren).

There are some good complimentary pieces there. I think the bigger impact on how successful this team will be lies with Kakko, Lafreniere, and Kravtsov.
 
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