Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[haohmaru]

At this point... are you even reading his entire posts?

Uh, yes? Are you? Saying "if Zibanejad is your best..." isn't saying that Zibanejad isn't an elite top line forward. He's a top 10 center in the game. That's "elite".

 

[duhmetreE]

I don't consider them on the level of McDavid/Draisaitl, Crosby/Malkin, Kane/Toews, Stamkos/Kucherov, etc, no, I don't.

They are very similar to Stamkos and Kucherov.... but Kucherov is a massively clutch player in the Playoffs. He does a lot of dumb shit but he puts the puck in the net when the team needs it.

If Panarin produced somewhat like Kucherov, we're winning a cup.

 

[mas0764]

They are very similar to Stamkos and Kucherov.... but Kucherov is a massively clutch player in the Playoffs. He does a lot of dumb shit but he puts the puck in the net when the team needs it.

If Panarin produced somewhat like Kucherov, we're winning a cup.

Tampa Bay is also loaded at every level.

 

[duhmetreE]

Tampa Bay is also loaded at every level.

We are just as loaded if not more so. They've had a better balance though imo.

Tampa learned how to win by executing the 'small game'. They do the simple things really well and their top guns show up when needed.

 

[bbny]

It's a bit of a sliding scale, but the Rangers need more.

If you have Crosby, you may need one or two less.

If your best player is Zibanejad you may need one or two more.

Great post thanks. I agree with this in principle. Not all elite players are of the same mold. I'm not sure I agree the Rangers need more elite players than what they have though.

I don't consider them on the level of McDavid/Draisaitl, Crosby/Malkin, Kane/Toews, Stamkos/Kucherov, etc, no, I don't.

I think Zibanejad/Panarin is very close to Toews/Kane. A little bit further away from, but not too far off of, Stamkos/Kucherov when those guys started to win Cups. Before the Stamkos/Kucherov pairing actually won a Cup, there were lots of questions if they had what it takes to win. Winning a Cup is just an absolute grind, and elite players sometimes just need several opportunities to finish the job and move up the "elite scale". If you were making this list 3 years ago, I don't think Stamkos/Kucherov makes your list here for example even though they had been in the league for several years already.

 

[will1066]

Great post thanks. I agree with this in principle. Not all elite players are of the same mold. I'm not sure I agree the Rangers need more elite players than what they have though.


I think Zibanejad/Panarin is very close to Toews/Kane. A little bit further away from, but not too far off of, Stamkos/Kucherov when those guys started to win Cups. Before the Stamkos/Kucherov pairing actually won a Cup, there were lots of questions if they had what it takes to win. Winning a Cup is just an absolute grind, and elite players sometimes just need several opportunities to finish the job and move up the "elite scale". If you were making this list 3 years ago, I don't think Stamkos/Kucherov makes your list here for example even though they had been in the league for several years already.

I don't believe that Zibanejad/Panarin can elevate themselves to play with the grit that's needed to win a Cup. Like you said, it's grinding plus close-quarter combat. They have to be able to do the things they can do in the regular season but in a far more limited time and space.

 

[bbny]

I don't believe that Zibanejad/Panarin can elevate themselves to play with the grit that's needed to win a Cup. Like you said, it's grinding plus close-quarter combat. They have to be able to do the things they can do in the regular season but in a far more limited time and space.

Could be. I think Zibanejad showed a playoff gear last year, and elite guys finding a playoff gear is really just "maintain regular season production and effectiveness consistently in the playoffs". Tampa didn't win a Cup until Kucherov carried over his regular season production pace into the playoffs. Zibanejad did that last year. Panarin didn't (obviously).

 

[bbny]

Ok, back to the topic at hand. Lafreniere kinda stinks. Discuss.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Uh, yes? Are you? Saying "if Zibanejad is your best..." isn't saying that Zibanejad isn't an elite top line forward. He's a top 10 center in the game. That's "elite".

He hovers around 10, when he’s on like in the playoffs he’s top 10 for sure, when he’s like he is now… no way

 

[haohmaru]

He hovers around 10, when he’s on like in the playoffs he’s top 10 for sure, when he’s like he is now… no way

A point per game 200' player? Yeah, okay.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

A point per game 200' player? Yeah, okay.

I know we're all traumatized by Zuccarello being our leading scorer with 58 points every year, but point per game isn't what it used to be

 

[LORDE]

Interesting.

I mean, you can make a decent argument that the "core" pieces are there - Panarin, Zibanjed, Fox, and Shesterkin. I think the larger issue is the "kids" not coming along fast enough. They've got a forward that's on pace for 90 goals over two seasons (Kreider), an up and coming 2/3C in Chytil, and young D that are only going to improve (Schneider/Miller/Lindgren).

There are some good complimentary pieces there. I think the bigger impact on how successful this team will be lies with Kakko, Lafreniere, and Kravtsov.

It's kinda both... hence when you get some luck you can get to the Conf finals...

When that luck (& goaltending) runs a little thinner you get this season.

Bread needs to be better. He's paid for it. SO HE CAN'T VANISH or be a turnover machine

The kids of course need to be better (I won't beat a dead horse here)

 

[haohmaru]

I know we're all traumatized by Zuccarello being our leading scorer with 58 points every year, but point per game isn't what it used to be

Mika is 10th in scoring among centers. I mean, yeah, it happens more often now than before but our last guy to do it before Mika/Panarin is probably Jagr 17 years ago. It's just not something the Rangers do all that often because we suck at drafting high end forwards and bring in past their primes in the hopes of history repeating. We always have.

 

[CLW]

I don't believe that Zibanejad/Panarin can elevate themselves to play with the grit that's needed to win a Cup. Like you said, it's grinding plus close-quarter combat. They have to be able to do the things they can do in the regular season but in a far more limited time and space.

Zib is fine overall imo. His alround play including PK is good enough. It's Panarin that is paid to tilt the ice and be the team's offensive catalyst every game, especially in the playoffs, that is the real issue. He was that player once, he isn't anymore and that is a fundamental issue (which typically also happens to be a tabu to talk about).

A lot of people are complaining about the kids (low hanging fruit), but the real issues are higher up.

 

[Synergy27]

I'm not talking about you specifically, I'm generally referring to posters who are stating affirmatively that Lafreniere will not be a star, or that Lafreniere should be traded, giving up on his potential based on the record before us so far. Whether that includes you or not I don't know, I haven't studied your posts closely enough. But just generally to everyone who is expressing that view.

My point is it is very easy to be NEGATIVE or conservative with predictions. In my experience, those types of predictions are usually correct, mainly because odds are less. For example, if you were to say "there's no way the Rangers win the Cup this year" versus "The Rangers will definitely win the Cup this year," the latter is a MUCH more bold prediction. It's easier to say the former, and fall back on "I was right."

Likewise, in the event Laffy does bust, there will be a herd of posters claiming victory on their assessment, and saying the Rangers should have traded him in 2023, and look at my post back then, I knew it. Even if he doesn't bust and becomes a 50 pt player, posters will do that. However, if the team is patient and he breaks out and becomes a star, all of those posters will be able to hide behind the joy of being a Rangers fan and him being successful, by saying "I was always rooting for him" or "we're all Rangers fans and want the same things." There will be no accountability for their child-like reactions right now, when not a single person knows how this story will be written.

It is one thing to be frustrated with the player's development, or the team's usage of the player. But knocking people for preaching patience on a player, and again I'm not saying this is you but generally throughout this thread others have done it, is beyond the pale. Patience is a huge requirement as a fan in drafting young players. From what I've seen in your posts, you know that as well as anyone. I understand how he was billed and he has not lived up to those expectations yet and I do understand that as a fan it is frustrating. I too am frustrated - mostly in the team's usage of him, but also in his lack of dynamic playmaking which I expected to turn up here and there.

He has played 175 games and has 70 even strength points. His average TOI has always been sub 15 minutes per game. He has received 0 PP time. Every time he as promoted, he was given very little rope to settle in and get going before being demoted. Yes, he has played some in the top 6, but not really for long stretches. The players he is being compared to do not have those limitations. It's pretty simple stuff.

It is pretty obvious to me that Lafreniere needs to do some work in the offseason, but also, that he lacks confidence in his game right now. Confidence is such a huge part of success. There's an old quote my dad used to tell me, I'm not sure who it is attributed to, but it goes "if you think you can or think you can't, you're right." He seems to be falling in the "you think you can't" area.

He knows if he makes a mistake he can be out of the lineup. He is being taught to play a simple game, a safe game. If he plays that way, you are going to get the version of him you see now, and not the one in his highlight reels. It is time to preach to the kid to go be a thoroughbred, within reason, pick your spots and make some plays. Go do the things that got you drafted 1st overall and just play your game. If it fails, you will not be benched. The guidance should come in learning when those plays were poorly timed, i.e. game management type guidance. Situational awareness type guidance. If he's being told to be a dump and chase player, this team is mismanaging him and killing his development.

If Laf truly busts no one will be taking victory laps. We’ll be drowning our sorrows and questioning allegiances.

 

[Synergy27]

I don't consider them on the level of McDavid/Draisaitl, Crosby/Malkin, Kane/Toews, Stamkos/Kucherov, etc, no, I don't.

They absolutely are, or should be, on par with Stamkos/Kuch. Panarin falling off recently is the thing preventing them from being basically identical to that duo.

Drafting generational talents comes down to insane luck, timing, and potentially help from the league ( wink wink). You simply cannot plan your organization around attempting to draft players like that, especially with the lottery. I want them too, trust me, but they are simply not regularly available even at 1-2OA as we are seeing.

Also, why can’t Edmonton win? McDavid is head and shoulders the best forward in the league and that’s not enough.

Are the Rangers Cup favorites in the hypothetical world where they trade Zib for McDavid straight up?

 

[LokiDog]

They absolutely are, or should be, on par with Stamkos/Kuch. Panarin falling off recently is the thing preventing them from being basically identical to that duo.

Drafting generational talents comes down to insane luck, timing, and potentially help from the league ( wink wink). You simply cannot plan your organization around attempting to draft players like that, especially with the lottery. I want them too, trust me, but they are simply not regularly available even at 1-2OA as we are seeing.

Also, why can’t Edmonton win? McDavid is head and shoulders the best forward in the league and that’s not enough.

Are the Rangers Cup favorites in the hypothetical world where they trade Zib for McDavid straight up?

I think the problem isn’t the lottery luck McDavid, Matthews types. It’s the fact that we’ve never drafted or developed a Tkachuk, Marner, Nylander, Suzuki, etc. type either.

We had the 10OA we picked McIlrath. We had 7OA we picked Lias. Our 9OA so far is pacing for 20 points. AND our 1/2OAs are nowhere near MacKinnon type talents. Is Chytil our best first round forward since… I don’t know? But our biggest success in the first round is pacing to just barely reach 50 points in his 5th season/D+6. And he wasn’t even a top 10 pick. We’ve had 5 of those and ended up with McIlrath, Andersson, Kravtsov, Kakko, Lafreniere.

Rantanen was a 10th pick. Meier was 9th. Barzal 16th. Connor 17th. M. Tkachuk was 6th. Keller was 7th. Necas was 12th. Suzuki 13th. Josh Norris 19th. Robert Thomas 20th.

Obviously plenty of teams missed out on those guys but the point is we’ve never had one. That hurts.

 

[IDvsEGO]

It's a bit of a sliding scale, but the Rangers need more.

If you have Crosby, you may need one or two less.

If your best player is Zibanejad you may need one or two more.

We would need Kakko and Laf to become stars for me to feel significantly better about our odds. Before Panarin and Kreider or Zibanejad decline into supporting players.

The Athletic has broken down GSVA by position for like the last X amount of Cup winners and also how the Rangers lag behind, though as of like a year or two ago.



Because I didn't say that two elite forwards was the ONLY thing you need, did I?



Yes. But you need elite top line forwards.

So how did the blues win the cup?

 

[mas0764]

So how did the blues win the cup?

Yeah, I literally addressed that.

Player Discussion - Alexis Lafrenière

we're not an elite team by any stretch. however, we're still a dangerous team. check out the rosters on carolina and edmonton 2005-06. i don't seen any real elite names on either roster. but those were dangerous teams. and look how far they went. Not sure why we are "looking at" a team that...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[Shadowtron]

I think the problem isn’t the lottery luck McDavid, Matthews types. It’s the fact that we’ve never drafted or developed a Tkachuk, Marner, Nylander, Suzuki, etc. type either.

We had the 10OA we picked McIlrath. We had 7OA we picked Lias. Our 9OA so far is pacing for 20 points. AND our 1/2OAs are nowhere near MacKinnon type talents. Is Chytil our best first round forward since… I don’t know? But our biggest success in the first round is pacing to just barely reach 50 points in his 5th season/D+6. And he wasn’t even a top 10 pick. We’ve had 5 of those and ended up with McIlrath, Andersson, Kravtsov, Kakko, Lafreniere.

Rantanen was a 10th pick. Meier was 9th. Barzal 16th. Connor 17th. M. Tkachuk was 6th. Keller was 7th. Necas was 12th. Suzuki 13th. Josh Norris 19th. Robert Thomas 20th.

Obviously plenty of teams missed out on those guys but the point is we’ve never had one. That hurts.

And let’s not forgot the 2003 draft lol. Drafting, not development, continues to be this team’s Achilles heel. For Christ’s sake, this team had teenage Gordie Howe on a tryout contract and released him lol.

 

[jerseyjinx94]

If Laf truly busts no one will be taking victory laps. We’ll be drowning our sorrows and questioning allegiances.

We’ll see. Half of you think he’s a bust already and want to trade him for Chychrun and shit like that

 

[ReddestRum]

Everyone got a piece tonight. Miller, Kakko in the SO, Chy, and even Greasy Vesey. Laf a passenger for another game.

 

[EdJovanovski]

Pathetic that this bum got a shift in OT over Krav

 

[mas0764]

I thought he looked ok tonite. Missed a bit of the third, what happened that he went up on the first line instead of Kreider?

 

[yrrebbor]

I thought he looked ok tonite. Missed a bit of the third, what happened that he went up on the first line instead of Kreider?

Kreider left on injury. Didn’t notice he was gone? Me neither.