DanielBrassard
It's all so tiresome
You've been killing it on this topic lately, another great post.
Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière
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SA16
Sixstring
Sending him down isn't to hold him accountable for poor play. It's to give him a chance to have an L1/PP1 role against worse competition and develop the confidence to try and make plays that he isn't making in the NHL.
DanielBrassard
It's all so tiresome
I'm sure he is but that's because of his own ineptitude I would think. If he plays better he will gain more confidence. If he doesn't he won't. Or maybe it's all speculation and he's not struggling with confidence at all he's just not that good.
He’s not making the most of his ice time. That is concerning. He is not playing with bad playrers. He is playing with skilled guys. If he was playing with Blais and Brodzinski then I can see why his stats would be so down. It’s not like he was playing with McKegg the past few seasons.
what if he already hit his peak and this is what you get with him, no improvement?
what if he already hit his peak and this is what you get with him, no improvement?
Synergy27
F-A-C-G-C-E
I agree. But honest question. Is Stuetzle on the Rangers PP1? I don’t think he is.
We always talk BPA at the draft. When the BPA is both expected to contribute right away AND plays the same position as your superstars that are locked up long term, you need to change your draft strategy. I think that’s both where the mistake was and why these kids aren’t as good as advertised.
I think Stutz would have ended up in the Trochek/Strome spot, and Tro wouldn’t have been signed but it’s a moot point.
Here’s an honest question for the analytics crowd:
Just like we can measure high danger scoring chances faced by goalies, is there a statistic that measures high danger scoring chances generated by players? Can we realistically look at the quality of chances generated by individuals? My hypothesis is that a player like Stutz or Hughes, even in their rookie years, were generating a lot more quality chances per 60 than our kids. Not raw totals, but like high danger chances created per 60. At EV if you want. I don’t know if this stat exists, but I’d like to see it.
LORDE
I am Lorde, YA YA YA
But see... the "we need to hold players accountable" police is everyone on here... & maybe every fan who watches with regularity... ANY team
Everyone on here wants (or wanted at any given time) for players like Bread... Zbad... Kreider... Trouba etc to be held accountable. With every coach they've played for here.
If Laf wasn't a #1 he'd have been in Hartford a long time ago and maybe that would've been best.
He hasn't done anything with his opportunities and when he is noticeable its for the VERY wrong reasons.
As @Loki Dog 74 @mas0764 have eluded to... if Laf & Kakko aren't going to be franchise-esque players... not even elite... we aren't winning shit.
irishlaxburger2
Registered User
The reality is, the power play provides so much development and learning opportunity for young offensive players because it allows them to navigate how to produce at the NHL level with actual time and space to think and react. Getting used to the speed of play at a higher level is a major learning curve for any player, but so is learning how to beat NHL goaltenders, figuring out how to connect on cross-ice passes against defenders with better positioning/sticks, etc. Can a player learn all of this 5v5? Technically, yes. But it's going to take a lot longer because you're going to get way less reps in the O-Zone 5v5 both shooting and passing, and all of those reps come with way less time and space. That extra time and space on the PP totally gets rid of that "speed of the game" mountain youngsters need to climb and allows players to just figure out how to produce offensively at this level. Once they learn that, they can begin applying it 5v5 when they do find opportunities with a bit of time and space. And eventually, getting used to the speed/space at 5v5 is the final step of development. All the while, they're doing this with the confidence they get from producing on the PP.
Players like Kakko and Chytil have taken so long to develop - and still haven't developed consistent offensive production - because they've never been given considerable PP time. And the road to figuring it out 5v5 has been extremely long and rocky. But they're getting there.
They, just like Laf, would have benefited from considerable PP1 time early in their careers so they could actually develop offensive games at this level. Would someone like Chytil's skillset have justified a poor PP1 just to develop an average to above-average offensive player long-term? Probably not. But for raw talents like Laf and Kakko, it's completely justified because long-term they have the ability to turn into very good offensive producers.
Players like Kakko and Chytil have taken so long to develop - and still haven't developed consistent offensive production - because they've never been given considerable PP time. And the road to figuring it out 5v5 has been extremely long and rocky. But they're getting there.
They, just like Laf, would have benefited from considerable PP1 time early in their careers so they could actually develop offensive games at this level. Would someone like Chytil's skillset have justified a poor PP1 just to develop an average to above-average offensive player long-term? Probably not. But for raw talents like Laf and Kakko, it's completely justified because long-term they have the ability to turn into very good offensive producers.
- Apr 16, 2012
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Well it’s a little column a a little column b. When two players are getting drastically different usage you try to compare apples to apples. EV is a fair way to do that.
We could argue about whether Laf deserves PP1 time less than Hughes or Stutzle did when they were given it. For instance Hughes and Laf scored the same 21 points in their rookie years, Laf with fewer games, and fewer minutes per game, outscored Hughes 21 to 12 at EV. Hughes was kept on the power play and given big minutes regardless. But it doesn’t matter, because the kids here are blocked from PP1. So by default you are correct that Laf (as well as KK and Chytil) is going to need to be dominant at EV to get any real PP opportunity. And he has not been. By any stretch.
And no, I’m not trying to say Laf is as good as Hughes, obviously not. I normally wouldn’t feel the need to state the obvious but there seems to be a lot of knee jerking on this thread. (Not from you)
zlev
Registered User
- Dec 21, 2015
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the most important thing to remember is that player development is not linear. often times guys will actually take a step back and look worse before they put it all together (see: Chytil, Filip). Laf scored 19 goals last year at even strength but he barely had any assists. this year he's getting assists, that is a good sign. obviously this is all incredibly frustrating but he still has a lot of time to figure it out.
irishlaxburger2
Registered User
- Jan 18, 2012
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Dont think thats a fair comparison.
Gaut is 25 years old. Physically, he's in a different stratosphere than Laffy. Not an apples to apples comparison.
I don't expect Laffy to be anything like Hughes or Stutzle, stylistically.. His play style should be similar to a Draisaitl or Robertson. His finishing has gone to shit. He's no longer moving his legs. He's hesitating. He's mental right now... He's trying to play a game that's not his.... but he should be fine in the long run IMO.
The EV production is baseline that can be compared. This is the worst/most lost he's looked in his NHL career. I also don't think the coaching staff is doing anything to help him
Robertson and Draisaitl put it together around 21-22 years old. Hopefully he figures it out soon.
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Jauffre
Registered Grandmaster
Not a fan of lumping the two youngsters together when Kakko is clearly improving and is already a very useful player, while Lafreniere is most certainly not. Even Devils' fans are quick to praise Kakko lately.
We don't really have a "the kids" problem, we have a Lafreniere problem. I fell for the "19 EV Goals" narrative too for a while. What a low bar that is, considering how those were scored. Has anyone seen that many empty-net tap-ins and lucky bounces? He was basically a complete beneficiary. Expecting that many easy ones again was akin to assuming Kreider would net 52 again. Dangling a broken Dylan Larkin was sweet though.
We don't really have a "the kids" problem, we have a Lafreniere problem. I fell for the "19 EV Goals" narrative too for a while. What a low bar that is, considering how those were scored. Has anyone seen that many empty-net tap-ins and lucky bounces? He was basically a complete beneficiary. Expecting that many easy ones again was akin to assuming Kreider would net 52 again. Dangling a broken Dylan Larkin was sweet though.
irishlaxburger2
Registered User
Kakko has had an extra year vs. Lafreniere. Comparing 2022 Kakko to 2022 Laf is an unfair comparison.
If anything, Kakko's jump this year should give Ranger fans confidence that Laf could make a similar jump next year.
- Jan 18, 2012
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Kakko also came from Europe where game is much different from NHL, especially in Finland. Takes time adapting, somebody adapts faster than others.
Laf is young kid and has time to figure things out and Im sure he will. Also stupid to compare these young players to other players in past and what path this should take in development and if that wont take this path he will be bust etc... They are all individual human beings who got their personal life problems and other worries. They should lock these threads until these youngsters are 25 years old and then we can start talking about do they have future in NHL.
and god forbid he would flub 25-50% of those goals like the way ryan strome probably would have. heads would explode.
Why should he get PP time over Kakko or. Hutus?
he looked great in the playoffs. Without PP time and without playing in the top 6.
irishlaxburger2
Registered User
Because he has the most long-term offensive potential of those 3, so the inevitable short-term downside is offset by a larger long-term upside.
That said, I wouldn't complain if it was Kakko who got PP1 time. Frankly, the Rangers need to develop the offensive skillsets of both of them. If your philosophy is basically "let's put one of them on PP1, and that one is who is currently playing better" Kakko fits the bill right now.
DanielBrassard
It's all so tiresome
Yes but that data is usually behind a paywall. But check out Corey szjnader's all three zones project if you want to find that sort of stuff.
Jauffre
Registered Grandmaster
Rookie Kakko had some of the worst defensive analytics in the league, became serviceable in the following season, and is now a legitimate 2-way player. He used to fall down a ton, not so much anymore. Has gotten better and better along the boards. Now finds the lanes, draws players to him, etc. There's been a significant progression (non-linear, as @zlev11 aptly pointed out) from him in key areas through the years.
I don't see the same from Lafreniere. Even considering the different countries, leagues, backgrounds, paths - it's not crazy to expect some noticeable improvement. What specifically is Lafreniere better at now as compared to his rookie campaign?
"He'll figure it out". Yeah, good luck with that.
Makes this all the more disappointing. He had a good playoff, just like the whole line did. And nowadays the "kid line" isn't all that effective. Chytil finds success away from Laf. Kakko finds it away from Laf.
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HockeyBasedNYC
Feeling it
There was a shift during the Devils game, cant remember when, doesnt matter really. Everyone on the ice was skating except for him. And then the Devils transitioned, he was back checking and just stopped. It was almost like he gave up. Standing upright. Really pissed me off. Because I'm supporting the kid and will continue to. I have to.
He may have been tired, but when all eyes are on you goddamn it you gotta push. But wait a minute. Forget the fans, the media, the coaches, etc. Go out and play and show some fire. There were some decent shifts he had in that way but not enough. It needs to be more consistent. Thats not thinking too much. Thats just losing focus. There is a difference. Something isnt right there.
He may have been tired, but when all eyes are on you goddamn it you gotta push. But wait a minute. Forget the fans, the media, the coaches, etc. Go out and play and show some fire. There were some decent shifts he had in that way but not enough. It needs to be more consistent. Thats not thinking too much. Thats just losing focus. There is a difference. Something isnt right there.
will1066
If you score four, you better f'n win the game
- Oct 12, 2008
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The new avatar is great. Is that a bust of Laf somewhere in front a DC government building? Maybe a monument?
Wouldnt matter who they picked, they are just not capable of having top 10 picks prosper in the organization
Should have drafted a Jesper Fast or Dom Moore type with the top pick
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