Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[QJL]

If Panarin goes to the left point, he is a shooting option, a passing option to Zibanejad, and a passing option to the lefty on the RW half wall. Fox remains a shooting option from the RW on the half wall, and also retains passing lanes to Zibanejad and Panarin. It also gives Zibanejad and Fox a passing option to the lefty RW on the half wall.

IMO it gives all of our players more options and retains Zibanejad as a threat from his favorite spot. If you look at how Tampa's PP is built, this is basically it. Stamkos is the primary shooter from the LW top of circle but if teams start cheating on that, Kucherov can do the same thing from the right side.

I don’t get it. If Panarin is on the left point, how exactly is he setting up Zibanejad one timers? He’s not. Zibanejad is now counting on Fox, but more often Lafreniere/Kakko/Chytil for setups.

I do think an ideal power play is a lefty on the right side like a Kucherov. That player becomes a passing option and a shooting option. You’re right about that. I still prefer an off-handed Panarin there. It’s hard to imagine one of the kids out-producing one of the top PP producers in the league, even though he’s doing it on his off-hand.

Of this team trades for Patrick Kane, I’d be willing to make this transition and balance the PP units.

Kreider
Zibanejad - Trocheck - Kane
Fox

Lafreniere
Panarin - Kakko - Chytil
Not Trouba

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

I don’t get it. If Panarin is on the left point, how exactly is he setting up Zibanejad one timers? He’s not. Zibanejad is now counting on Fox, but more often Lafreniere/Kakko/Chytil for setups.

I do think an ideal power play is a lefty on the right side like a Kucherov. That player becomes a passing option and a shooting option. You’re right about that. I still prefer an off-handed Panarin there. It’s hard to imagine one of the kids out-producing one of the top PP producers in the league, even though he’s doing it on his off-hand.

Of this team trades for Patrick Kane, I’d be willing to make this transition and balance the PP units.

Kreider
Zibanejad - Trocheck - Kane
Fox

Lafreniere
Panarin - Kakko - Chytil
Not Trouba

Because that more or lets puts Panarin where Fox is now. Fox has set up plenty of Zibanejad one timers. And that puts Fox where Panarin is now, and he can make the passes Panarin has been making as well.

So if the play is along the RW side, that puts Panarin in the middle of the ice at the point and Fox at the right point closer to the boards. That keeps Zibanejad at the top of the left circle where he can receive a diagonal pass from either as they walk the blueline, as the puck shifts over in that direction. It also allows Fox to move up from the right point, and try for the cross-seam pass as Panarin currently does, which Fox is skilled enough to do.

The biggest detriment in my build is that if there's a turnover, Panarin will be the player back instead of Fox. So we're giving up more if we get a SHG chance against.

How many Zibanejad one timers has Trocheck set up? Because that's who you're losing as a setup option to Zibanejad in my build. Otherwise, you're just flipping Fox and Panarin, which also allows Panarin to be a one-time option, and he has a pretty good one that's underutilized with him on the right side.

And if the powerplay moves around, which is desired, if Fox moves along the RW wall it allows the lefty to shift to the middle of the ice, creating space if needed, or cycle back if Fox doesn't find anything there and passes/pulls back. If Fox moves up and makes the cross ice pass to Zib and Zib doesn't have a shot, it immediately gives Zib 3 options - throw it at the net for a Kreider deflection, a left handed shooting option one-time in the slot, or back to the point and try again. If the play is coming from the left side, it allows the RW to shoot off the pass. If everyone keeps their feet moving, that's a far more dynamic powerplay that's harder to strategize against than now.

Having a lefty shot on the RW half boards also opens up the one-timer from the right point since the puck carrer can face the play, protect the puck, and pass from a protected position to Fox for the shot. That's a much more difficult pass for a righty to make from there, and with Trocheck staying high middle, realistically it's not an option at all currently.

 

[SA16]

Because that more or lets puts Panarin where Fox is now. Fox has set up plenty of Zibanejad one timers. And that puts Fox where Panarin is now, and he can make the passes Panarin has been making as well.

So if the play is along the RW side, that puts Panarin in the middle of the ice at the point and Fox at the right point closer to the boards. That keeps Zibanejad at the top of the left circle where he can receive a diagonal pass from either as they walk the blueline, as the puck shifts over in that direction. It also allows Fox to move up from the right point, and try for the cross-seam pass as Panarin currently does, which Fox is skilled enough to do.

The biggest detriment in my build is that if there's a turnover, Panarin will be the player back instead of Fox. So we're giving up more if we get a SHG chance against.

How many Zibanejad one timers has Trocheck set up? Because that's who you're losing as a setup option to Zibanejad in my build. Otherwise, you're just flipping Fox and Panarin, which also allows Panarin to be a one-time option, and he has a pretty good one that's underutilized with him on the right side.

And if the powerplay moves around, which is desired, if Fox moves along the RW wall it allows the lefty to shift to the middle of the ice, creating space if needed, or cycle back if Fox doesn't find anything there and passes/pulls back. If Fox moves up and makes the cross ice pass to Zib and Zib doesn't have a shot, it immediately gives Zib 3 options - throw it at the net for a Kreider deflection, a left handed shooting option one-time in the slot, or back to the point and try again. If the play is coming from the left side, it allows the RW to shoot off the pass. If everyone keeps their feet moving, that's a far more dynamic powerplay that's harder to strategize against than now.

You are now proposing:

1. Removing Fox from his best spot on the PP
2. Removing Panarin from his best spot on the PP

And you think this is a good idea?

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

You are now proposing:

1. Removing Fox from his best spot on the PP
2. Removing Panarin from his best spot on the PP

And you think this is a good idea?

Panarin has played this spot before, and he was excellent at it.

IMO Fox also has the skills to handle this. In fact, it's not very different from what he already does at even strength most nights.

 

[bhamill]

They won't change the PP1 because that's the business of hockey. No coach survives benching a 5-11 million dollar vet on the PP that makes up the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 point ranking on this team for an unproven young player. Something like this only happens when you're 21 or under currently is if your last name is the likes of a Zegras, Hughes, Stutzle, or Raymond, to name a few. Those players have proven that they can be star players, leaders, and can score both on and off the PP.

Well you are ignoring that Zegras et al were put on the top lines and power plays from the start, BEFORE they ever earned it. But that’s because they weren’t blocked by high scoring star veterans. Again that’s the role roster circumstance plays in how a prospect develops, what his scoring numbers look like. I’m not saying those stars should be moved aside, I just saying that’s a huge part of the overall equation. You are free to have the opinion that the NYR kids are busts and wouldn’t have similar numbers (or better) to those players if they’d had the same circumstances and opportunities, but pretending stark differences in circumstance and opportunity didn’t exist is just denial of reality.

 

[EdJovanovski]

You are now proposing:

1. Removing Fox from his best spot on the PP
2. Removing Panarin from his best spot on the PP

And you think this is a good idea?

Panarin’s best spot on the PP was at the left circle in 2019-20

 

[ReddestRum]

"Proven to be stars" by being spoonfed, or more accurately having ice time rammed down their throats, in every situation.

Lafreniere (and Kakko) haven't had half the opportunities these other guys had.

Hughes was being force-fed 19+ minutes as a 19 year old. As a 20 year old Hughes scored 26 goals... 6 on the PP. Lafreniere scored 19 goals all at EV while getting f***ing 13 minutes. Hughes with 6 more minutes per game only scored 1 more EV goal than Laf.

The huge difference here between all these guys and ours is a dumbshit coach refusing to give our guys the ice time and PP time.

You can't tell me that, even in his first year in the NHL, that Hughes didn't look like a legit 1OA on a sub .500 team. The kid absolutely had to be a leader if he was going to survive on that team. Point production is what teams look for the most, but talent is right behind that. You also can't forget about team dynamics. It's unfortunate if you can't keep up, but on a team of high-paid superstars that can actually put points on the board, you've got to work your ass off to get those minutes and show that you belong there first.

Lastly, young players (even just players) tend to make their jump from average to elite in the off-season. In Hughes case, knotting 56 points from his previous season of 31 and doing it in 7 less games. Both him and Laf in their 3rd season had just about the same number of games played, yet another excuse we make for Laf is he missed games. As if he's the only dude that missed games during COVID and has had his development crushed because of it.

I don't know why, but Laf looked much better in the playoffs last year than he did at the start of this year. I don't know how that is. It's like he didnt make any gains to improve his game or mindset in the offseason. Kakko seems to have insanely worked on his strength, boardplay, stickwork, and edgework and you can see his improvement in the chances he's getting (but he, like many on this team, have trouble finishing).

Well you are ignoring that Zegras et al were put on the top lines and power plays from the start, BEFORE they ever earned it. But that’s because they weren’t blocked by high scoring star veterans. Again that’s the role roster circumstance plays in how a prospect develops, what his scoring numbers look like. I’m not saying those stars should be moved aside, I just saying that’s a huge part of the overall equation. You are free to have the opinion that the NYR kids are busts and wouldn’t have similar numbers (or better) to those players if they’d had the same circumstances and opportunities, but pretending stark differences in circumstance and opportunity didn’t exist is just denial of reality.

I mention such in my post above. Also, I don't think they're busts. I just think they are average.

 

[bhamill]

You can't tell me that, even in his first year in the NHL, that Hughes didn't look like a legit 1OA on a sub .500 team. The kid absolutely had to be a leader if he was going to survive on that team. Point production is what teams look for the most, but talent is right behind that. You also can't forget about team dynamics. It's unfortunate if you can't keep up, but on a team of high-paid superstars that can actually put points on the board, you've got to work your ass off to get those minutes and show that you belong there first.

Lastly, young players (even just players) tend to make their jump from average to elite in the off-season. In Hughes case, knotting 56 points from his previous season of 31 and doing it in 7 less games. Both him and Laf in their 3rd season had just about the same number of games played, yet another excuse we make for Laf is he missed games. As if he's the only dude that missed games during COVID and has had his development crushed because of it.

I don't know why, but Laf looked much better in the playoffs last year than he did at the start of this year. I don't know how that is. It's like he didnt make any gains to improve his game or mindset in the offseason. Kakko seems to have insanely worked on his strength, boardplay, stickwork, and edgework and you can see his improvement in the chances he's getting (but he, like many on this team, have trouble finishing).



I mention such in my post above.

Saying Hughes and Laf get the same amount and quality of ice time (even using last year for Hughes) is frankly insane. Hahaha. And he’d already been handed the power play and first line time from the beginning. That’s a nice long runway to take off from. AND, no Hughes did NOT look like a legit 1OA/ special player from beginning. That’s revisionist. He didn’t score at a tremendous clip and there were genuine worries about his durability. He was given top line and PP1 anyway. They didn’t have a Zib, Pan or Kreider…
But your opinions about the players themselves? Subjective. You are welcome to them. We will see how it all shakes out when all these players are finished products and if I end up being wrong, so be it, I’ll freely admit it.

 

[QJL]

Because that more or lets puts Panarin where Fox is now. Fox has set up plenty of Zibanejad one timers. And that puts Fox where Panarin is now, and he can make the passes Panarin has been making as well.

So if the play is along the RW side, that puts Panarin in the middle of the ice at the point and Fox at the right point closer to the boards. That keeps Zibanejad at the top of the left circle where he can receive a diagonal pass from either as they walk the blueline, as the puck shifts over in that direction. It also allows Fox to move up from the right point, and try for the cross-seam pass as Panarin currently does, which Fox is skilled enough to do.

The biggest detriment in my build is that if there's a turnover, Panarin will be the player back instead of Fox. So we're giving up more if we get a SHG chance against.

How many Zibanejad one timers has Trocheck set up? Because that's who you're losing as a setup option to Zibanejad in my build. Otherwise, you're just flipping Fox and Panarin, which also allows Panarin to be a one-time option, and he has a pretty good one that's underutilized with him on the right side.

And if the powerplay moves around, which is desired, if Fox moves along the RW wall it allows the lefty to shift to the middle of the ice, creating space if needed, or cycle back if Fox doesn't find anything there and passes/pulls back. If Fox moves up and makes the cross ice pass to Zib and Zib doesn't have a shot, it immediately gives Zib 3 options - throw it at the net for a Kreider deflection, a left handed shooting option one-time in the slot, or back to the point and try again. If the play is coming from the left side, it allows the RW to shoot off the pass. If everyone keeps their feet moving, that's a far more dynamic powerplay that's harder to strategize against than now.

Having a lefty shot on the RW half boards also opens up the one-timer from the right point since the puck carrer can face the play, protect the puck, and pass from a protected position to Fox for the shot. That's a much more difficult pass for a righty to make from there, and with Trocheck staying high middle, realistically it's not an option at all currently.

I wish you could draw it for me. If Fox is playing where Panarin is now, how is a lefty shot like Lafreniere on the right side boards? That’s where Panarin plays. Do you have 4 on the perimeter with Kreider net front?

Also Trocheck’s job is not to set up Zibanejad, or anyone, unless it’s a quick touch. His primary role is to create space for the perimeter.

Panarin up top instead of Fox would give me a heart attack.

 

[ReddestRum]

I wish you could draw it for me. If Fox is playing where Panarin is now, how is a lefty shot like Lafreniere on the right side boards? That’s where Panarin plays. Do you have 4 on the perimeter with Kreider net front?

Also Trocheck’s job is not to set up Zibanejad, or anyone, unless it’s a quick touch. His primary role is to create space for the perimeter.

Panarin up top instead of Fox would give me a heart attack.

Trocheck is the only reason we win faceoffs in the O-zone as well. It would be really damn odd to see him win a faceoff and quickly jump off the ice for one of the kids. That's a thing too.

 

[bhamill]

Trocheck is the only reason we win faceoffs in the O-zone as well. It would be really damn odd to see him win a faceoff and quickly jump off the ice for one of the kids. That's a thing too.

This is true.

 

[ReddestRum]

Saying Hughes and Laf get the same amount and quality of ice time (even using last year for Hughes) is frankly insane. Hahaha. And he’d already been handed the power play and first line time from the beginning. That’s a nice long runway to take off from. AND, no Hughes did NOT look like a legit 1OA/ special player from beginning. That’s revisionist. He didn’t score at a tremendous clip and there were genuine worries about his durability. He was given top line and PP1 anyway. They didn’t have a Zib, Pan or Kreider…
But your opinions about the players themselves? Subjective. You are welcome to them. We will see how it all shakes out when all these players are finished products and if I end up being wrong, so be it, I’ll freely admit it.

Not saying they ever got the same amount of play time, but Laf's "lack of games played" seems to be a reoccurring crutch that's been brought up plenty of times in this thread. Hughes and Laf had the same amount of points in their first two seasons respectively. Then the off-season came and Hughes broke out with almost a 60 point season. I mean, did the coaching staff hold his hand during the off-season to make him an even better player? Probably not. Most likely he got some direction and basically did the work. Laf has the makings of an average support player. Right now, at this very moment, it seems Kakko is the one trying to branch out and be a line leader by creating plays and taking chances. I think that's how you get a Zegras and Hughes. Then again, you never know, the NHL just might be too much for some players to make it as superstars. I can guarantee you that if we traded Laf today, he would not be a Top 6 player or a PP1 guy getting 22 mins a game. Actually, I guess he might be if he were playing for the Ducks or Chicago.

 

[bhamill]

Not saying they ever got the same amount of play time, but Laf's "lack of games played" seems to be a reoccurring crutch that's been brought up plenty of times in this thread. Hughes and Laf had the same amount of points in their first two seasons respectively. Then the off-season came and Hughes broke out with almost a 60 point season. I mean, did the coaching staff hold his hand during the off-season to make him an even better player? Probably not. Most likely he got some direction and basically did the work. Laf has the makings of an average support player. Right now, at this very moment, it seems Kakko is the one trying to branch out and be a line leader by creating plays and taking chances. I think that's how you get a Zegras and Hughes. Then again, you never know, the NHL just might be too much for some players to make it as superstars. I can guarantee you that if we traded Laf today, he would not be a Top 6 player or a PP1 guy getting 22 mins a game. Actually, I guess he might be if he were playing for the Ducks or Chicago.

I hear you. My point is not about games played, tough respective to non COVID era draft picks he certainly has gotten fewer games to develop in his D+ seasons, and Hughes had similar lack of games. I’m saying the QUALITY of his minutes and the responsibility given (not earned) from the very beginning is not comparable. As I said Hughes had far more runway to take off. Again, what we feel these players will be when finished products is subjective. I can’t tell you you are wrong, I have no crystal ball. I just see it differently. And sure, I have my biases, as you do, we’re just human, right? But I’m not basing my view on emotional wants, it’s genuinely how I logically see it. Hopefullyit will be fun finding out over the next few seasons and not miserable and disappointing. Hahaha.

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

Trocheck is the only reason we win faceoffs in the O-zone as well. It would be really damn odd to see him win a faceoff and quickly jump off the ice for one of the kids. That's a thing too.

A fair point, but I reall have to add that I wonder what's going on with Mika this year on draws. He was over 50% last year and probably one of the best faceoff men on the team, and this year he's righty Filip Chytil and Kreider's been taking a bunch of draws when they've both been on the ice together. What happened?

Ideally Mika would take the faceooffs on a PP1 without Trocheck, then Trocheck moves to PP2 and can play LW top of circle shooter.

 

[ReddestRum]

I hear you. My point is not about games played, tough respective to non COVID era draft picks he certainly has gotten fewer games to develop in his D+ seasons, and Hughes had similar lack of games. I’m saying the QUALITY of his minutes and the responsibility given (not earned) from the very beginning is not comparable. As I said Hughes had far more runway to take off. Again, what we feel these players will be when finished products is subjective. I can’t tell you you are wrong, I have no crystal ball. I just see it differently. And sure, I have my biases, as you do, we’re just human, right? But I’m not basing my view on emotional wants, it’s genuinely how I logically see it. Hopefullyit will be fun finding out over the next few seasons and not miserable and disappointing. Hahaha.

I have to agree with you here. 100% fair. I said it a few posts ago, I would have no issue with Laf taking more minutes and bigger roles with the team as long as he can show he belongs there. Coming off-season is going to be interesting. I wonder what we'll offer him. And then after next season, a shitload of UFA's and RFA's. We're still in a rebuild here with our youngest players hitting mid-20's by that time. The thing is, is our organization ready to be patient??

 

[ReddestRum]

A fair point, but I reall have to add that I wonder what's going on with Mika this year on draws. He was over 50% last year and probably one of the best faceoff men on the team, and this year he's righty Filip Chytil and Kreider's been taking a bunch of draws when they've both been on the ice together. What happened?

Ideally Mika would take the faceooffs on a PP1 without Trocheck, then Trocheck moves to PP2 and can play LW top of circle shooter.

If someone other than Trocheck could take PP1 faceoffs, he absolutely doesn't need to be there until he calibrates his shot.

 

[gravey9]

The main reason Laffy hasn't replaced Trocheck on the first unit PP is puck retrieval. The first unit, when they play against better teams have a hell of a time setting up when they have to dump in. That's honestly Trocheck's biggest role on the PP, its' using his speed to help get the puck back if we have to dump it in. He's better at it than Laff. If Laffy was better at winning those board battles and helping the team set up, there would be no legit argument to keep him off the first unit. (well, that and faceoffs, but Zibby can take right handed draws and Kreids left)

 

[ReddestRum]

The main reason Laffy hasn't replaced Trocheck on the first unit PP is puck retrieval. The first unit, when they play against better teams have a hell of a time setting up when they have to dump in. That's honestly Trocheck's biggest role on the PP, its' using his speed to help get the puck back if we have to dump it in. He's better at it than Laff. If Laffy was better at winning those board battles and helping the team set up, there would be no legit argument to keep him off the first unit. (well, that and faceoffs, but Zibby can take right handed draws and Kreids left)

Rangers dumping it on the PP irks me to no end when there are teams that can gain the blue line skating even strength without ringing it into the boards.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

The main reason Laffy hasn't replaced Trocheck on the first unit PP is puck retrieval. The first unit, when they play against better teams have a hell of a time setting up when they have to dump in. That's honestly Trocheck's biggest role on the PP, its' using his speed to help get the puck back if we have to dump it in. He's better at it than Laff. If Laffy was better at winning those board battles and helping the team set up, there would be no legit argument to keep him off the first unit. (well, that and faceoffs, but Zibby can take right handed draws and Kreids left)

Trochek is a black hole on the pp outside of faceoffs. If Lafreniere never gets those opportunities he's never gonna get better. Our PP is a shell of its former self and only one player changed on it, its time to try something new. This team is wasting good years of Lafreniere,Kakko and Kravtsov and worse than that they aren't preparing them for future years, at some point they need to hand the kids some key areas of the game. There's no reason Laf isn't on pp1 and no reason Kakko isn't a key on the pk.

 

[gravey9]

Trochek is a black hole on the pp outside of faceoffs. If Lafreniere never gets those opportunities he's never gonna get better. Our PP is a shell of its former self and only one player changed on it, its time to try something new. This team is wasting good years of Lafreniere,Kakko and Kravtsov and worse than that they aren't preparing them for future years, at some point they need to hand the kids some key areas of the game. There's no reason Laf isn't on pp1 and no reason Kakko isn't a key on the pk.

I don’t disagree at all but puck retrieval seems to be one of the main deciding factors at moment. I get it as the team is horrific at getting the Pp set up against better teams and if pp1 is only ok at this, pp2 is far worse.

 

[huerter]

Weird how all the solutions to our fledgling PP (which happens to be the envy of the league) involves inserting the youth. No agenda spotted.

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

Weird how all the solutions to our fledgling PP (which happens to be the envy of the league) involves inserting the youth. No agenda spotted.

Envy of the league?
They're 17th.

And yes, any changes would involve the youth since the only other alternatives are low ceiling veterans like Vesey, Goodrow, Blais, or doing nothing.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Weird how all the solutions to our fledgling PP (which happens to be the envy of the league) involves inserting the youth. No agenda spotted.

Quite the devious agenda to provide opportunities to the keys to the success of our franchis. Shame on us all.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

You can't tell me that, even in his first year in the NHL, that Hughes didn't look like a legit 1OA on a sub .500 team. The kid absolutely had to be a leader if he was going to survive on that team. Point production is what teams look for the most, but talent is right behind that. You also can't forget about team dynamics. It's unfortunate if you can't keep up, but on a team of high-paid superstars that can actually put points on the board, you've got to work your ass off to get those minutes and show that you belong there first.

Lastly, young players (even just players) tend to make their jump from average to elite in the off-season. In Hughes case, knotting 56 points from his previous season of 31 and doing it in 7 less games. Both him and Laf in their 3rd season had just about the same number of games played, yet another excuse we make for Laf is he missed games. As if he's the only dude that missed games during COVID and has had his development crushed because of it.

I don't know why, but Laf looked much better in the playoffs last year than he did at the start of this year. I don't know how that is. It's like he didnt make any gains to improve his game or mindset in the offseason. Kakko seems to have insanely worked on his strength, boardplay, stickwork, and edgework and you can see his improvement in the chances he's getting (but he, like many on this team, have trouble finishing).



I mention such in my post above. Also, I don't think they're busts. I just think they are average.

Hughes looked better because of what he was able to do on the PP. His production at even strength is lower than Lafrenière through their first 163 games.







Is this breakdown relevant? I'd say so considering the lack of PP time Lafrenière gets. The only fair comparison is 5v5 numbers.

Here's their PP-time per game in that same span:

Nugent-Hopkins: 3:05
McDavid: 3:02
Hughes: 2:57
Hall: 2:56
MacKinnon: 2:30
Hischier: 2:25
Matthews: 2:22
Lafrenière: 1:13

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

Well, being on the top line lasted all of 2 1/2 games. Saw this coming a mile away.

To Gallants defense, Laf did not have a strong game last night. Giveaways, hesitation, passing when he should shoot.

Had he provided more they probably would've kept him and Kakko up with Mika.

But I still didn't like the line juggling, again.