Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière: Part III

[Filip Chytil]

I posted in the Kakko thread yesterday, but not sure it showed up. Last week, Vince Mecrcogliano had a great tweet pointing out when teenagers get top-6 minutes and lots of points, they are almost always on terrible teams. Kakko and Lafreniere were both put on teams who were close to making the play-offs. They were not going to take ice-time from the Rangers vets that were on the top-2 lines. Funny thing is, when they won the lotto for Lafreniere, many were saying how it is a GOOD thing he doesn't have to come here and save the franchise or be the top-guy as an 18 year old. Because they had Panarin and Kreider at LW, they can bring him along slowly and let him develop. It is exactly what they are doing and some are complaining about him.

Imagine if the Rangers didn't have Panarin or Kreider, and Kakko and Laf were coming along slowly like they are? NY sports media would be x1000 worse.

I'm not worried about either guy.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Imagine if the Rangers didn't have Panarin or Kreider, and Kakko and Laf were coming along slowly like they are? NY sports media would be x1000 worse.

I'm not worried about either guy.

If they didn't have them, I am sure they would be getting more ice-time, more PP time, and more points. Obviously, I can't prove it. Agreed, not worried about either of them.

 

[duhmetreE]

I'm not sure his skating his holding him back as much as it's note elite enough for him to coast --- which is something he is prone to do.

I think there's definitely room for him to get significantly better though, not unlike Kakko. So the combination of improvements and keeping his feet moving should have him in a much better place.

I just dont see the limitations in the skating this season. It's a focal talking point but I don't agree with it.

Just like the rest of the team, he struggles with creating and finding space.

 

[Edge]

I posted in the Kakko thread yesterday, but not sure it showed up. Last week, Vince Mecrcogliano had a great tweet pointing out when teenagers get top-6 minutes and lots of points, they are almost always on terrible teams. Kakko and Lafreniere were both put on teams who were close to making the play-offs. They were not going to take ice-time from the Rangers vets that were on the top-2 lines. Funny thing is, when they won the lotto for Lafreniere, many were saying how it is a GOOD thing he doesn't have to come here and save the franchise or be the top-guy as an 18 year old. Because they had Panarin and Kreider at LW, they can bring him along slowly and let him develop. It is exactly what they are doing and some are complaining about him.

I do think it's unique, one could even argue precarious situation we sometimes find ourselves in.

We're a team that has two veteran, productive LWs right now who are arguably still in the primes of their careers. Between the two of them, they count a combined $18 million against the cap. At some point the transition to Lafreniere is going to take place, it's the getting there that is tricky.

With Kakko, I think he's finding his place on this team and it's onward and upward from there.

I also think it's easy to become too focused on point totals and ceilings. At the end of the day, I'll take a 90 point player and a winning team over a 100 point player and a mediocre team.

If that means Lafreniere only gets 90 points, and Kakko 75, but we're a championship-calibre team, that's fine. I won't lament that they aren't scoring 105 and 90 respectively.

In that same vein, I'm not terribly fixated on their point totals right now because I don't think this situation, as constructed, truly warrants panic. To some extent I think we're like the kids who grew up without money. Now that we potentially have some, maybe in the form of savings bonds that take time to mature, we're scared shitless that something is going to happen to rob us of our potential gains.

 

[Edge]

I just dont see the limitations in the skating this season. It's a focal talking point but I don't agree with it.

Just like the rest of the team, he struggles with creating and finding space.

I personally think that like Kakko, a big difference is going to come when Laf instinctively just keeps his feet moving.

 

[2014nyr]

I'm not sure his skating his holding him back as much as it's note elite enough for him to coast --- which is something he is prone to do.

I think there's definitely room for him to get significantly better though, not unlike Kakko. So the combination of improvements and keeping his feet moving should have him in a much better place.

i agree with all of this. he's made some real improvements on last year where he didn't have the strength to change direction if someone reversed on him. he could certainly improve, esp his first 2 steps, but its far from problematic. he's blown up the ice to finish a few of his goals off the puck this year too, he'll never be confused for mackinnon, but he can motor when he gets moving.

like you said keeping his feet moving, especially when he has the puck going up ice, would go a long way. looking back at his juniors and world junior clips he had the same habit where he'd glide outside in transition ... but there there was rarely back pressure and the d had so much respect for him it opened up the ice to make a play. in the nhl he's getting walled off by back pressure and the middle of the ice doesn't open up. as you said as he'll keep his feet moving as he becomes more instinctive and find a lot more ice to work with.

 

[LORDE]

I am no talent scout... so I hope everyone in here saying they're not worried are spot on.

I am concerned (from my POV) because I don't see him doing anything except just being "there"

If his skating needs work then someone needs to get that started like a year ago. If his legs need to get stronger then leg day should be every day.

IF this team busted on Andersson, Kravtsov, Chytil and Laf... we're f***ed because Panarin, Strome and Zbad aren't winning a round let alone a cup.

 

[duhmetreE]

I personally think that like Kakko, a big difference is going to come when Laf instinctively just keeps his feet moving.

100%

Even a player like Panarin struggles with it. Like I was saying, it’s team wide issue. Players do not skate to create lanes for the puck carrier. The puck carrier does not skate to create lanes for his teammates. There’s a lot of stationary and/or perimeter puck watching. It’s easy to defend and infuriating to watch.

we have struggled mightily with something as simple as getting open in scoring areas and properly supporting the puck. I mean how often do we see one timers from the high slot? (A typical Crosby-guentzel goal)

Rarely putting yourself in position to be a shooting threat. Or not being a shooting threat in general. The lack of attacking plays a role in it as well

There’s a lot of tendencies and habits that have seeped into the play of our kids. Hopefully it’s fixed sooner rather than later

 

[Shesterkybomb]

He just needs ice time and to be relied on. The problem with this team is that they've put winning in the short term ahead of making sure the kids are ready when we should be marching towards a cup

 

[Edge]

I am no talent scout... so I hope everyone in here saying they're not worried are spot on.

I am concerned (from my POV) because I don't see him doing anything except just being "there"

If his skating needs work then someone needs to get that started like a year ago. If his legs need to get stronger then leg day should be every day.

IF this team busted on Andersson, Kravtsov, Chytil and Laf... we're f***ed because Panarin, Strome and Zbad aren't winning a round let alone a cup.

I think there's the gap between work in progress and completely f***ed. Though I think it can be easy for any of us to lose sight of that.

For example, on the skating issue. There's many layers between bad and good and there's the concept of better. I don't think Laf is a bad skater, I'd consider him a good skater. But I think he needs to be a better skater, or maybe a smarter skater to fully maximize his talent.

The challenge with watching talent isn't often what people see, but what they can interpret. The minimum requirement for scouting talent is having a pair of eyes. The challenge, and where reputations are made or ruined, is how consistently you can interpret and translate what you're seeing.

A lot of debates about young talent come from how people interpret and translate what they're seeing differently. And often times, how things are translated and interpreted owes a lot to someone's hopes and fears, experiences or lack thereof, and sometimes even bias vs. neutrality.

 

[The Sweetness]

I don't have a big issue with him skating or not. Laf is clearly unusually talented. Once he is comfortable with the NHL game and has complementary linemates he will be more than fine.

I haven’t seen anything to make me believe he’s unusually talented.

If I didn’t know where he was drafted and only saw him in the NHL I wouldn’t at all think he has high upside.

I have a hard time understanding in what way he is unusually talented based on his time with us so far.

 

[CLW]

I haven’t seen anything to make me believe he’s unusually talented.

If I didn’t know where he was drafted and only saw him in the NHL I wouldn’t at all think he has high upside.

I have a hard time understanding in what way he is unusually talented based on how time with us so far.

Ok.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Lafreniere is playing like 10 minutes a game with basically no PP time and people are worried because he’s not scoring like the second coming of Crosby

Newsflash, Raymond or anyone else wouldn’t be putting up huge numbers when they’re buried behind Panarin and Kreider.

 

[LORDE]

Lafreniere is playing like 10 minutes a game with basically no PP time and people are worried because he’s not scoring like the second coming of Crosby

Newsflash, Raymond or anyone else wouldn’t be putting up huge numbers when they’re buried behind Panarin and Kreider.

I can't speak for everyone, but it's not the pts (or lack of) I am concerned about... it's his inability to look present.

There's no flashes of anything. He looks like a journeyman to me. Another player who's good enough to be in the NHL but not good enough to make any noise. He doesn't create... he's not a defensive stalwart... he hits, but he's not a killer... I don't see the vision he supposedly brings... his shot? I dunno... haven't seen that either.

He has time... he's young. I hope my fears are unfounded but he's just... ehhh ok I guess.

 

[Thirty One]

I can't speak for everyone, but it's not the pts (or lack of) I am concerned about... it's his inability to look present.

There's no flashes of anything. He looks like a journeyman to me. Another player who's good enough to be in the NHL but not good enough to make any noise. He doesn't create... he's not a defensive stalwart... he hits, but he's not a killer... I don't see the vision he supposedly brings... his shot? I dunno... haven't seen that either.

He has time... he's young. I hope my fears are unfounded but he's just... ehhh ok I guess.

I don't think anything there is untrue. Important thing to remember is that in the population of good or even very good NHL players, very few of them were that at age 19/20/21.

 

[DanielBrassard]

I don't think anything there is untrue. Important thing to remember is that in the population of good or even very good NHL players, very few of them were that at age 19/20/21.

That might be true, but his peers, #1 overall picks, are more often than not very good at his age. Which is really who he should be compared to.

 

[Thirty One]

That might be true, but his peers, #1 overall picks, are more often than not very good at his age. Which is really who he should be compared to.

Sure, and if you're expecting McDavid, Mackinnon or Matthews, you're likely to be disappointed.

 

[Savant]

Lafreniere is playing like 10 minutes a game with basically no PP time and people are worried because he’s not scoring like the second coming of Crosby

Newsflash, Raymond or anyone else wouldn’t be putting up huge numbers when they’re buried behind Panarin and Kreider.

Quite frankly this is BS.

There is a middle ground between what he is currently producing and “second coming of Crosby” and he is no where near it. He doesn’t need to be a superstar but he should at least be able to make an impact or at least stand out from the rest of his line. He is doing neither.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Quite frankly this is BS.

There is a middle ground between what he is currently producing and “second coming of Crosby” and he is no where near it. He doesn’t need to be a superstar but he should at least be able to make an impact or at least stand out from the rest of his line. He is doing neither.

sure but the numbers bear out that he is making an impact. He's driving xGF at one of the best rates on the team, and he's not giving up an excessive amount in the other direction. He's third among team forwards (behind Strome and Panarin) in 5v5p/60, and while some harp on his very high shooting percentage--his individual shooting percentage is very high, but his on-ice shooting percentage is just below average, and looking at shots he's on the ice for not including his own, it's a paltry 5.7%.

People move the goalposts a lot with this player and constantly compare him to others, be it by draft position or draft year. Last year Stutlze and Caufield were the can't miss way better than Lafreniere players, now that they've run into some struggles, we have new ones.

You don't have to be super blown away by laf, and he's not exploding in a limited role, but people's disappointment based on their expectations just manifests in hyper-criticism and really overwrought takes about him. He's been fine. He's not been better or worse.

 

[Savant]

sure but the numbers bear out that he is making an impact. He's driving xGF at one of the best rates on the team, and he's not giving up an excessive amount in the other direction. He's third among team forwards (behind Strome and Panarin) in 5v5p/60, and while some harp on his very high shooting percentage--his individual shooting percentage is very high, but his on-ice shooting percentage is just below average, and looking at shots he's on the ice for not including his own, it's a paltry 5.7%.

People move the goalposts a lot with this player and constantly compare him to others, be it by draft position or draft year. Last year Stutlze and Caufield were the can't miss way better than Lafreniere players, now that they've run into some struggles, we have new ones.

You don't have to be super blown away by laf, and he's not exploding in a limited role, but people's disappointment based on their expectations just manifests in hyper-criticism and really overwrought takes about him. He's been fine. He's not been better or worse.

I don’t think he is doing fine either. He doesn’t need to be a star but he isn’t even noticeable at this point. Some of the fancy stats are nice but those numbers are a lot better than wants on the tape right now.

 

[RangersFan1994]

He needs to be scratched to wake him up. He isn't noticeable, even Kakko is more noticeable this season, even when he wasn't producing earlier this season.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

The one (and pretty much only) knock on Laf coming into the league that I recall - Was his pace of play. I remember it being mentioned a few times but more importantly by some well respected scouts.

Contrary to some fans opinions I have seen some improvements in this area. He worked on his skating over the summer, which was good to hear but also points out that this is a known issue in his camp.

I don't think he's slow or a bad skater per se, I just think he needs to work on the finer points, transitions, edge work, first few steps need to be more explosive. He needs to cut out some wasted energy in his stride. That will come with some time and working with a good skating coach.

We saw Brian Boyle completely change his skating stride after he came over from the Kings and it resulted in him having a good long career. Obviously completely different players but if the work is put in, big changes can be made especially at such a young age. Barron could use some work here as well.

The other half of the battle is confidence with and without the puck, but more importantly building a greater awareness of the areas of ice and moments with the puck when he needs to turn it on or use more skilled skating techniques to find open ice.

The "pace" issue rolls right into this. If you watch Panarin, he is dancing on the ice and is a master at controlling energy but also exploding at the precise moments needed to find separation. Thats an innate ability that is difficult to teach, but an elite player of Laf's pedigree should be able to develop in this regard. Maybe not to Panarin's level, but closer to a point where he's not searching for the pace out there, he's just part of the flow.

After he banks enough experience in those areas there is more than enough elite level puck and shooting skills to be productive at the level he is expected to be. I'd like to think he'll begin reaching this level sooner rather than later but it could take a few seasons.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

I personally think that like Kakko, a big difference is going to come when Laf instinctively just keeps his feet moving.

150,000% correct. I've been saying since last season that his biggest problem is that he doesn't keep his feet moving as much as he should and it causes him to be out of position or a half a second behind at times.

It's all part of the process, I know people are down on him but I think he's coming along just fine. He's one of those kids that I feel like once it clicks in, he's going to be off to the races.

 

[aufheben]

He looked more engaged to me the last 1.5 games because Panarin was out.

He's not on a Buffalo, Detroit or an Ottawa where he would be force fed top six minutes because there's no other option.

If he's developing on the third line for now, so be it. You can do a lot worse on the third line than a former 1st overall still on his ELC.

Lafreniere and Kakko have both spent enormous amounts of ice-time in the top-six—oftentimes when players of equivalent age & contributions would be spending said top-six ice-time in Hartford.

 

[The New Russian Five]

Decided to go back and watch some of his highlights from his Junior days. As I am watching, I am asking myself what qualities can I spot out that makes him a 1st overall pick. And honestly, I don't see anything that special. He's not overly fast, or a great skater, a lot of his passes that led to assists are that hard to make. His hands are pretty good and sometimes can make a defender look silly, but doesn't seem to happen more than your run of the mill top 6 player. The one thing that sticks out to me is that he finds himself in scoring position a lot.

Maybe I am missing something, but I just don't see what the hype was about in his draft year. Did everyone just look at his point totals and assume he was a stud?